Will Beatty out 5 months with a Torn Pec

[Tempest]

Pugh at left tackle (like some of you guys wanted at the beginning of last year, remember?); Flowers at RT. That puts vet with youth on both sides of the line--Schwartz with Flowers, Pugh with whomever gets the LG spot.

 

No point in freaking out--we did ok when Diehl replaced Pettigout.

 

Meh quit being logical and making sense

[Allstarjim]

Agreed. Flowers will push open holes for the run game. The left tackle is extremely important for protecting the QB if the QB is right handed like Eli. It makes the QB's left side his "blind side" and he has to be able to trust the LT to keep an opposing player away from him while he sets to throw. Pugh did a stellar job at Syracuse keeping DE's off Nassib's blind side. Pugh is much better with his feet than Flowers and is better suited for keeping the QB clean rather than shoving open holes for the RB as is Flowers.

 

I suspect it is Pugh who will be expected to fill the void on the left as he's good at pass protection.

 

Marshall Newhouse has NFL experience as LT, but at least 2 teams cut him for reasons unbeknownst to me. But teams don't cut LT's unless they are 100% sure he can't handle the job. At best, Newhouse spells the tackle position now and then and is an emergency backup.

 

We're looking at a starting lineup (IMHO) as: PUGH - ?? - RICHBURG - SCHWARTZ - FLOWERS

 

I suspect there will be a battle between JONES, HART, MOSLEY, HERMAN, JERRY to take the final guard position. I suspect Jones or Jerry to win the starting position as they groom Hart. But maybe Mosley and Herman have gotten themselves in tip top shape and are ready to contribute.

 

Don't forget Newhouse, who I believe I read can play inside or outside.

 

I think we will be fine as long as we don't take a lot more losses at this position group. McAdoo's offense will allow Eli to get the ball out quickly much of the time, and with the attention that Beckham will be getting, they should be able to get a lot of quick completions inside to Cruz, Donnell, Vereen, etc.

 

The other silver lining here is that this happened now, and there's a decent chance Beatty will be back by November. I think they can piece it together, especially with knowing where we are at right now, until he's ready to go, and then get a solid half a season from him and should have fresh legs for the playoff stretch.

[Allstarjim]

I also think Beatty was better than just "decent" at LT last season. Not saying All-Pro, but very good.

[echochamber]

I also think Beatty was better than just "decent" at LT last season. Not saying All-Pro, but very good.

He was our best OL last year imo. This could be a devastating injury. We already had no depth whatsoever along the line and this makes matters worse. If Pugh and Richburg take a quantum leap, Schwartz plays above his contract, and Flowers is good from day 1, we might be ok. I had hopes this team could take a couple steps forward this year and go 8-8 or maybe even 9-7, but this will make things difficult. They simply cannot have many more injuries or we'll be getting a top 10 pick again

[Tempest]

 

Don't forget Newhouse, who I believe I read can play inside or outside.

 

I think we will be fine as long as we don't take a lot more losses at this position group. McAdoo's offense will allow Eli to get the ball out quickly much of the time, and with the attention that Beckham will be getting, they should be able to get a lot of quick completions inside to Cruz, Donnell, Vereen, etc.

 

The other silver lining here is that this happened now, and there's a decent chance Beatty will be back by November. I think they can piece it together, especially with knowing where we are at right now, until he's ready to go, and then get a solid half a season from him and should have fresh legs for the playoff stretch.

 

We were thinking the same about Jon Beason when he got hurt in mini camp. There is an equally decent chance Beatty can be out for the season. Newhouse was brought in as a backup, to put him in as a starter will prove it.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

PEDs. bicep/tricep muscle tears, groin tears, pec tears are all PED injuries

 

[GA4M]

He was our best OL last year imo. This could be a devastating injury. We already had no depth whatsoever along the line and this makes matters worse. If Pugh and Richburg take a quantum leap, Schwartz plays above his contract, and Flowers is good from day 1, we might be ok. I had hopes this team could take a couple steps forward this year and go 8-8 or maybe even 9-7, but this will make things difficult. They simply cannot have many more injuries or we'll be getting a top 10 pick again

I had the same thoughts too thinking the team as a whole would be improved this year, and it still can be, but if this shit starts again this year, it will be more like last year. We're really going to need the WR's and RB's to do better to take some of the pressure of the line. And Eli needs to stop with his slop on the other side of that!

[Sephiroth]

He was our best OL last year imo. This could be a devastating injury. We already had no depth whatsoever along the line and this makes matters worse. If Pugh and Richburg take a quantum leap, Schwartz plays above his contract, and Flowers is good from day 1, we might be ok. I had hopes this team could take a couple steps forward this year and go 8-8 or maybe even 9-7, but this will make things difficult. They simply cannot have many more injuries or we'll be getting a top 10 pick again

And if Beatty had been healthy it would have been "which Will Beatty shows up" as well. This team has holes all over... what do we get out of Cruz? Can Beason stay healthy? Can Andre Williams take the next step? Who are the starting safeties? Do we have an NFL tight end on the roster? Etc, etc.

 

All of this would be tough to overcome with any coach. Throw in Jerry Palmieri's dogshit strength and conditioning program and Coughlins mismanagement of injured players and a .500 season is pretty much a pipe dream.

[BleedinBlue]

And if Beatty had been healthy it would have been "which Will Beatty shows up"

 

as well. This team has holes all over... what do we get out of Cruz? Can Beason stay healthy? Can Andre Williams take the next step? Who are the starting safeties? Do we have an NFL tight end on the roster? Etc, etc.

 

All of this would be tough to overcome with any coach. Throw in Jerry Palmieri's dogshit strength and conditioning program and Coughlins mismanagement of injured players and a .500 season is pretty much a pipe dream.

Actually, I think Beatty did well last year. He's not a pro-bowler, but he's kept DE's off Eli and wasn't tagged with penalty after penalty. I think about 27 teams in the league would take him in a heartbeat. The unfortunate thing with an offensive lineman is, you only get noticed when you make mistakes. If you do a good job, you go unnoticed and that's a good thing.

[BlueInCanada]

I've been mum on Beatty, I think he was gone after this season regardless injury or not, unfortunetly he's play it just to erratic at times to warrant the starting LT money he's getting but he's atleast better than a majority of LT in the league.

 

This gives the Giant's a chance to see if they have the tackles of the future in Flowers/Pugh or is they are going to play "Spin that lineman" and shuffle them around.

[echochamber]

And if Beatty had been healthy it would have been "which Will Beatty shows up" as well. This team has holes all over... what do we get out of Cruz? Can Beason stay healthy? Can Andre Williams take the next step? Who are the starting safeties? Do we have an NFL tight end on the roster? Etc, etc.

 

All of this would be tough to overcome with any coach. Throw in Jerry Palmieri's dogshit strength and conditioning program and Coughlins mismanagement of injured players and a .500 season is pretty much a pipe dream.

Agreed. We have question marks everywhere and everything needs to fall into place for the Giants to have a good season. The one bright spot in all of this is most teams, outside of a select few, have the same issues. A wildcard spot is there for the taking if injuries don't cripple us. I'm sure Mr Palmieri will see that doesn't happen though

[Nas]

I don't get how we have question marks everywhere... I think every team in the NFL has question marks. Our problem has ALWAYS been... as far back as I can remember... Injuries... more frequent than probably any other team in the NFL... This shit with Beatty falls in that line. Now some of you sing his praises and some of you say he was erratic... how I value players is... well.. VALUE. What's the player's contribution when faced against his contract... our salary cap situation is hamstrung by a few highly paid players who don't' live up to their contract... I happened to believe Beatty is adequate at LT but making a bit more than he should given HIS PERFORMANCE... it's the same logic I never understood the love for Rolle...

 

Now... will this hurt? Yea.. I look at the bright side.. maybe now Flowers will have to be injected into the line up anyway.. and I'm a firm believer that game-time experience trumps riding the bench every time. I'm still livid Beatty suffered that injury and I put the blame squarely on him...

 

As far as other "holes", again, the team has addressed pretty much all of them.. Safety? we traded up for the best in the draft... WR we still have the same bodies but as insurance, we sighed a good one away from Dallas.. who happened to be great returning kicks btw.. TE? we had an adquate one last year AND we have a few bodies now competing... one whom I think will be very good.

[BleedinBlue]

I don't get how we have question marks everywhere... I think every team in the NFL has question marks. Our problem has ALWAYS been... as far back as I can remember... Injuries... more frequent than probably any other team in the NFL... This shit with Beatty falls in that line. Now some of you sing his praises and some of you say he was erratic... how I value players is... well.. VALUE. What's the player's contribution when faced against his contract... our salary cap situation is hamstrung by a few highly paid players who don't' live up to their contract... I happened to believe Beatty is adequate at LT but making a bit more than he should given HIS PERFORMANCE... it's the same logic I never understood the love for Rolle...

 

Now... will this hurt? Yea.. I look at the bright side.. maybe now Flowers will have to be injected into the line up anyway.. and I'm a firm believer that game-time experience trumps riding the bench every time. I'm still livid Beatty suffered that injury and I put the blame squarely on him...

 

As far as other "holes", again, the team has addressed pretty much all of them.. Safety? we traded up for the best in the draft... WR we still have the same bodies but as insurance, we sighed a good one away from Dallas.. who happened to be great returning kicks btw.. TE? we had an adquate one last year AND we have a few bodies now competing... one whom I think will be very good.

I agree with you right down the line except an injury on the offensive line is worse than a lot of other positions. That's because it takes a couple of years as a unit to become cohesive. The guys in the middle MUST know what each guy is going to do on either side of him and the tackles need to know and trust the lineman next to him. When the ball is snapped, there is chaos in the trench and the defense is always trying a different scheme to mess up the offensive linemen. It all happens in less than a second and the guards, center, and tackles have to know who is going to shore up the area they have to give up because the defense went the other way this time. The line as to think "as one"...and that takes time to develop as making mistakes is their greatest teacher.

 

The longer a unit plays together and maintains their original position, the better the line. Unfortunately, with Beatty's injury, it means a shift in order of the whole line as they try to find a setup that works best. We could lose several games by the time they come up with a viable lineup that can work as one....and that sucks!

 

Maybe we'll transition through it fairly quickly, but I suspect Eli is going to get hit a lot in the early games and when the QB is rushed or hit a lot, he's not the QB he needs to be. One of the things we got when we signed Shane Vereen that won't show up on a stat's sheet, is Vereen’s pass-blocking ability. He is one of the best RB's in the NFL at blocking. So he'll probably see more time on the field as a result of needing a RB to step up and help block. Hynoski also better show up to camp in tip top shape as he'll also be counted on to help block.

 

Regardless...I hate going into the season with uncertainty in the offensive line and the Giants ability to keep Eli upright and given time to throw after being set. Hopefully, TC, McAdoo, and Flaherty will be able to work it out before season starts.

[Sephiroth]

Most teams have question marks at certain positions. Few have question marks at EVERY position as the Giants do.

 

Let's look at San Francisco the past few seasons. Until this offseason, they had question marks at QB and WR, some would argue big ones at that. But both their lines were good, they had a decent secondary, you knew Gore would give you 1,000 yards, and their linebacking corps was among the NFL's best. Of course, that all went to shit this offseason, but for the past three years you knew more or less what you were getting.

 

Now let's look at the Giants. O-line? Even with Beatty, a lot needed to go right (Flowers' development, Schwartz's injuries, Pugh and Richburg at new positions). We might not have any NFL caliber running backs on this roster; Jennings can be that guy if healthy, but Williams' has terrible vision. The latter had lasik surgery in the offseason which might improve things a bit but again... a definite question mark. Beckham is going to be a stud in this league, but who knows what we'll get from Cruz and Randle (for the record, I'm not a Randle believer)? On the other hand, you DO know what you're getting from Donnell and Fells... C+ to B- play. Not exactly championship quality production.

 

Prince and DRC are solid-to-good in the secondary, but then after them who do we have? No matter who starts at safety, it's an unknown commodity. Don't even get me started on the linebackers... Kennard looks to be a good one (hamstring notwithstanding) but Beason is made of glass, and the other guys are backup/role players at best. The D-line could be good IF JPP plays well and is healthy and IF Damontre Moore takes the next step and IF Cullen Jenkins isn't hurt and IF we get something out of Bromley and IF and IF...

 

Outside of Eli, we don't know what we're getting out of any position. And honestly? Eli isn't exactly the pillar of consistency himself.

 

There's some things working for us this year... we have a softer schedule... Spags is back... but honestly, if this team cracks .500 it'll be a miracle. Reese's terrible drafts from 2008-2012, Jerry Palmieri's horrific conditioning program, and Coughlin's mismanagement of injured players has made a toxic cocktail from which it's unlikely this team will recover, at least not this season.

[CrazedDogs]

Nas, in general I agree with your methodology - performance/(value of position(salary cap comp)) is a very logical way to look at roster building.

 

But, by following that methodology to the point of dogma, the best value, by this formula, will be average players. And if you fill out a roster entirely with average players, you're going to have a team that isn't even average.

 

This is the value (and sometimes the folly) of the meritocracy - as talent and performance increases, compensation does not increase linearly along with it.

[Nas]

Most teams have question marks at certain positions. Few have question marks at EVERY position as the Giants do.

 

Let's look at San Francisco the past few seasons. Until this offseason, they had question marks at QB and WR, some would argue big ones at that. But both their lines were good, they had a decent secondary, you knew Gore would give you 1,000 yards, and their linebacking corps was among the NFL's best. Of course, that all went to shit this offseason, but for the past three years you knew more or less what you were getting.

 

Now let's look at the Giants. O-line? Even with Beatty, a lot needed to go right (Flowers' development, Schwartz's injuries, Pugh and Richburg at new positions). We might not have any NFL caliber running backs on this roster; Jennings can be that guy if healthy, but Williams' has terrible vision. The latter had lasik surgery in the offseason which might improve things a bit but again... a definite question mark. Beckham is going to be a stud in this league, but who knows what we'll get from Cruz and Randle (for the record, I'm not a Randle believer)? On the other hand, you DO know what you're getting from Donnell and Fells... C+ to B- play. Not exactly championship quality production.

 

Prince and DRC are solid-to-good in the secondary, but then after them who do we have? No matter who starts at safety, it's an unknown commodity. Don't even get me started on the linebackers... Kennard looks to be a good one (hamstring notwithstanding) but Beason is made of glass, and the other guys are backup/role players at best. The D-line could be good IF JPP plays well and is healthy and IF Damontre Moore takes the next step and IF Cullen Jenkins isn't hurt and IF we get something out of Bromley and IF and IF...

 

Outside of Eli, we don't know what we're getting out of any position. And honestly? Eli isn't exactly the pillar of consistency himself.

 

There's some things working for us this year... we have a softer schedule... Spags is back... but honestly, if this team cracks .500 it'll be a miracle. Reese's terrible drafts from 2008-2012, Jerry Palmieri's horrific conditioning program, and Coughlin's mismanagement of injured players has made a toxic cocktail from which it's unlikely this team will recover, at least not this season.

 

I'll say this.. I'm VERY comfortable with our RBs. Not just are we getting back Jennings, we signed a FA from NE.. and I don't buy that Williams who was a rookie last year is terrible by any stretch... with a year under his belt I expect him to shine this year.

 

The OL is built over time.. you just can't overhaul that unit in one year or even two... the Giants have been addressing it in the drafts which is the best way to address it... The Cowboys' line sucked donkey balls and they rebuilt that unit thru the draft... again I'm not buying that our line just sucks... Pugh and Flowers are first rounders.. Richburg is a 2nd rounder.. and we have bodies in camp... Beatty was adequate but not great...

 

I'm not a Randle believer either.. but we have ODB.. and Cruz.. and we signed a good one from Dallas... what else can a team do? Free Agents want stupid money and the NFL has a salary cap...

 

I agree about the Safety position.. however, it's not like the Giants didn't try to address it.. they did... it's dumb luck sometimes that some idiot couldn't stay off pot... and the fact that Rolle was more bark than bite... again we went back to the basics... draft draft draft... I don't need a FA to hamstring the team from signing good talent..

 

CD,

 

I'm not looking for super stars... Case in point.. look at NE... they have blue collar players and are a dynasty... yes I like to look at value... if your salary is crippling the team, chances are you're net negative than a net positive... I can bite the bullet with Eli because he can be good... but to spend that much on an average Safety and an average LT who didn't even have the discipline to work out properly... that blows my mind..

 

Understand I like to look at things from the Finance side... it's my profession after all.

[Nas]

And one more thing... and I've said this before... our biggest most exciting acquisition this offseason is getting Spags back... Fewel sucked on so many levels it's maddening.

[Bigblue25]

I like Randle. The Giants may have a top 5 wr core. Safeties? I think Behre and Thompson (eventually) will surprise and Collins is plug and play best S in the draft. The RB's were 10th in the NFL in yards after contact and 31st overall...that yells me offensive line couldn't open holes. They get Schwartz back and draft a dominate run blocker. They'll be fine

[Nas]

I like Randle. The Giants may have a top 5 wr core. Safeties? I think Behre and Thompson (eventually) will surprise and Collins is plug and play best S in the draft. The RB's were 10th in the NFL in yards after contact and 31st overall...that yells me offensive line couldn't open holes. They get Schwartz back and draft a dominate run blocker. They'll be fine

 

Randle is pretty incosistent... but again, I think having a solid OL can cure a lot of ills. And of course a defense than can make a stop sometimes.

[Sephiroth]

A lot needs to go right to end up with a solid OL.

 

Beatty is gone. Schwartz is on his third team in a six year career and has been healthy one of those six seasons. Flowers is brand new, and his name is Flowers. Pugh and Richburg are at new positions.

 

Again, a miracle if this works out. Stranger things have happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

[BleedinBlue]

There's a lot of talk that they might try Schwartz at RT with Flowers at LT and Pugh at LG to work with Flowers to keep the QB clean.

 

I'm not sure Schwartz can handle the RT position even though he's played several times there with other teams.

 

I keep thinking Bamiro is going to surprise. He's a huge man (6-8, 340+) and strong as an ox wowing everybody he works out with. He played starting LT in college (Stony Brook - small school, light competition), but doesn't have the feet to play tackle in the NFL. He's more of a bulldozer.

 

Since Schwartz is also a bulldozer type monster lineman....perhaps Schwartz and Bamiro take the right side and simply flatten everyone on the right side.

 

I have no idea what they are going to do. Flaherty is going to earn his money this year figuring it out. As far as Bamiro goes, I think he's still a year away from being NFL ready so he's likely to get backup time. I don't think the Giants will put him on their practice squad because some team will definitely take him. Eagles fans are still upset that the Giants signed him off their practice squad and would like him back.

[Herc]

I def think we'll be much better next year. Our draft was solid, our free agent additions were ok but we didn't lose much talent, we'll (hopefully) have odb for more than 12 games, a 75% victor Cruz is still a good possession receiver and our point differential last season pointed to a 7.5 win team. I think we'll win at least 8 games and I honestly think can pull off 10 and compete for a playoff spot. As far as our rebuilding phase goes I think the worst is over

[NightFire]

A lot needs to go right to end up with a solid OL.

 

Beatty is gone. Schwartz is on his third team in a six year career and has been healthy one of those six seasons. Flowers is brand new, and his name is Flowers. Pugh and Richburg are at new positions.

 

Again, a miracle if this works out. Stranger things have happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

That miracle is Jones.

[Mr. P]

Ereck Flowers' college position coach confident he can step in for injured Will Beatty

 

 

Miami offensive line coach Art Kehoe has mentored a long line of Hurricanes linemen that graduated to long and successful NFL careers, including Pro Bowlers like Bryant McKinnie and Chris Myers. Kehoe feels the Giants drafted his latest top pupil with the No. 9 pick in the draft.

"I'd say talent-wise, he compares with any of them," Kehoe said in a phone interview with NJ Advance Media. "He's a guy, you know what you're getting. He's gonna come there and he's gonna scrap. He's a scrapper, I promise you he's a scrapper. This guy, he just wants to get after it."

This is good news for Giants fans, who are hoping Flowers can not only contribute as a rookie, but fill the shoes of left tackle Will Beatty, who tore his pectoral muscle on Wednesday lifting weights, and will miss at least five to six months. The Giants have not yet indicated who would replace Beatty, but Flowers was already taking reps at left tackle during minicamp, and the team brass have indicated that they see him at that position long-term.

"A franchise left tackle is a rare commodity," said Marc Ross, the Giants' senior vice president of player evaluation, after the draft. "There are not many of those guys around the league and we think this guy has the ability, the upside, the potential, the toughness, the smarts and the competitiveness to be a franchise left tackle for us."

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Kehoe was not aware of Beatty's injury, and while he agreed with Ross' assessment of Flowers' physical attributes, he acknowledged that the Giants would have to exercise some patience. Kehoe said he wouldn't be surprised if the Giants game-planned around certain difficult one-one-one matchups with elite pass rushers.

"If you've got a Werewolf defensive end, he's going to be a problem for anybody, it's somebody you're going to gameplan [around]," Kehoe said. "I think he has the talent and wherewithal to handle either side, and he's smart enough to do it, and he works at it. Given enough time to work at it, which is hard to do because there's a whole organization depending on him, it's a very important position, either side, really, but I think he's equipped to handle both sides."

Flowers' intense focus and desire for self-iprovement was evident the moment he stepped on Miami's campus, but Kehoe never expected him to come in immediately and start as a freshman, especially considering he barely played high school football. Flowers was a "hooper," as Kehoe calls him, a basketball star at Krop High School before he transferred to Miami Norland as a senior to focus exclusively on football.

"He matches up well in the open field, which is pretty ridiculous for a guy who’s 6-7, 325 pounds."

Still, Flowers overcame the steep learning curve, and arrived at Miami ready to start from Day One, which is pretty uncommon for the Hurricanes. "We just don't have that happen very often," Kehoe said.

Flowers quickly proved his mettle to Kehoe early on by staying consistent and busting his tail on the practice field. But the lightbulb moment for Kehoe, when he knew he would be an NFL-caliber lineman, came when Flowers got a chance to showcase his rare athleticism as a blocker.

"When we watch film as a staff, we were always kind of amazed," Kehoe said. "You could pull him as a tackle or you could have him come flat in the open field on a kickout on a corner or an outside 'backer, and a lot of times in those situations, the lineman's at a mismatch, and he wasn't.

"He's a guy, we'd throw an out route or a quick screen to one of our receivers, either in motion or just lined up out there, and you'd send him out and he'd actually [lay a] lethal block on a corner, safety, an outside 'backer. He matches up well in the open field, which is pretty ridiculous for a guy who's 6-7, 325 pounds."

Flowers, at least upon initial impression, is a man of few words, keen to let his play do the talking. But Kehoe said not to mistake his quietness for being soft. He recalled Flowers' matchup with speedy Nebraska defensive end Randy Gregory, now with the Cowboys, as an example of Flowers' channeling his competitiveness into a dominant performance, frustrating Gregory to the point that he was lined up away from Flowers for the rest of the game.

"I'm sure he raised his level up a notch or two [against Gregory], but I think he plays every week, I think he plays hard in practice," Kehoe said. "He's an unproven commodity at the next level, and he's a high draft pick, [the Giants] drafted him to be a fixer, so I'm sure he's going in there to do what he did in Miami — scrap his ass off every day in practice, and if you're supposed to be a badass the next weekend [against] your opponent, he's gonna be there and he's gonna bring everything he's got. That's what he does. He wants to know that there's a dude, and he has to take care of him, and he'll be up to the challenge."

 

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2015/05/ereck_flowers_college_position_coach_confident_he.html

[Mr. P]

Adam SchefterVerified account ‏@AdamSchefter

Broncos Pro Bowl LT Ryan Clady tore his left ACL during practice Wednesday and is likely to miss the 2015 season, a league source told ESPN.

Now both Mannings have lost their left tackle.