Let's talk about the coaching

[Virginia Giant]

Look, I don't want to go there.  But if we're going to have the conversation about Daniel Jones, I think we have to talk about this coaching staff. 

Name one guy that has improved their game from last season.  Every significant player on the roster that was on the team last season looks like they have regressed badly.  At least from what I have seen. 

Jones, Neal, Thibs, Hodgins, Slayton, Jackson.  

Not that the regression is equal among them all, but I would say none of them has shown improvement.  

If you go back to the Thibs / Neal draft.  They were the right picks, I think 9 out of 10 fans and GMs make those picks in those spots.  For both of them at this point to look like busts (Thibs did have a really good game this week though), that can't be bad luck, right?  There were maybe questions there, there were better guys drafted in front of them we knew were better, but at 5 and 7, those were the guys. 

And the play that keeps bugging me, the Tush push, as it was happening I was thinking they were copying the league trend but didn't look like it was something they were committed to the decision to go for it and run that play.  Like they felt they had to because that is what the league says they have to do, but when you watched them in formation, that aggressive tension you see other teams doing on this play, it wasn't there.  That eagerness of each guy to drive the guy in front of them through the endzone and get a coupel yards.  Then I heard they have never even live practiced it, only walk throughs.  

So what is it, was it just that Dabol was new, had some plays, and now the league is on to it and he isn't adjusting?  How can this team be so bad, and have gotten so much worse?  

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

I think the choice of plays has a lot to do with it.  The Giants are going with a lot of misdirection plays on offense that requires a lot of discipline, technique and gumption that the young Giants don't have right now.  They should stick to mostly straight ahead power plays until these young guys learn how to pull and trap block as well as picking up stunts.

[boohyah]

The coaching has been sub par and they know it.

[mastershake]

26 minutes ago, Virginia Giant said:

Look, I don't want to go there.  But if we're going to have the conversation about Daniel Jones, I think we have to talk about this coaching staff. 

Name one guy that has improved their game from last season.  Every significant player on the roster that was on the team last season looks like they have regressed badly.  At least from what I have seen. 

Jones, Neal, Thibs, Hodgins, Slayton, Jackson.  

Not that the regression is equal among them all, but I would say none of them has shown improvement.  

If you go back to the Thibs / Neal draft.  They were the right picks, I think 9 out of 10 fans and GMs make those picks in those spots.  For both of them at this point to look like busts (Thibs did have a really good game this week though), that can't be bad luck, right?  There were maybe questions there, there were better guys drafted in front of them we knew were better, but at 5 and 7, those were the guys. 

And the play that keeps bugging me, the Tush push, as it was happening I was thinking they were copying the league trend but didn't look like it was something they were committed to the decision to go for it and run that play.  Like they felt they had to because that is what the league says they have to do, but when you watched them in formation, that aggressive tension you see other teams doing on this play, it wasn't there.  That eagerness of each guy to drive the guy in front of them through the endzone and get a coupel yards.  Then I heard they have never even live practiced it, only walk throughs.  

So what is it, was it just that Dabol was new, had some plays, and now the league is on to it and he isn't adjusting?  How can this team be so bad, and have gotten so much worse?  

It's a good point.  More broadly,  I'll just say the whole team looks dysfunctional across offense, defense,  and special teams,  and for that it's definitely the coaching. 

The Giants talent isnt great but it's not as bad as they've shown. They're a 7-8 win team currently playing like a 3 win team.

[jranieli]

It obviously has to be the coaching. How was Seattle able to patch together a makeshift offensive line so quickly and the Giants couldn't? It's embarrassing. 

[mastershake]

14 minutes ago, jranieli said:

It obviously has to be the coaching. How was Seattle able to patch together a makeshift offensive line so quickly and the Giants couldn't? It's embarrassing. 

Plus Carolina puts up 27 pts on them, but we can't get more than 3, while they're the 4th worst defense in the league.

[RandolphScott]

1 hour ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

I think the choice of plays has a lot to do with it.  The Giants are going with a lot of misdirection plays on offense that requires a lot of discipline, technique and gumption that the young Giants don't have right now.  They should stick to mostly straight ahead power plays until these young guys learn how to pull and trap block as well as picking up stunts.

You can’t do misdirection against teams like Dallas or San Fran. Their defenses are too fast and agile. 

[gmenroc]

Not making excuses, but some of that speaks to razer thin depth.  We knew the dropoff from starter to backup was significant...but it's worse.

Guys not named JMS, Neal, Thomas should not be on the roster as far as offensive line.  And Neal is on thin ice at that.

That's the rub the fan will never truly know though.  The coaches may very well be telling them what to do and they just don't, can't, or try to and are just beaten.  Short of being at the practices and in the meetings...we can't be sure if it is coaching or execution.

I like Daboll.  His demeanor speaks football coach to me.  He seems like a decent guy who can get it done.  Other guys seem in over their head or just don't have what it takes.  I don't get that from Daboll at all.  I would like him to throw a guy under the bus just once.  Tell the world...look, our protection is this and player X did not adjust, did not execute...something.  Just put it out there that he is as frustrated with the execution as the fans are.  Throw that clip of Neal out there and fire back...how are we supposed to do anything if this is what's going on?  Clearly Neal isn't coached to throw his own guy out of the way, freeing up a blitzer.

Regardless, I will stand by Daboll through a QB change at the very least.

[Virginia Giant]

I don't want him fired, and there are plenty of reasons this team sucks, including those you mention.  But for the life of me every single important player on the team, that should be the building blocks of the next 10 years, is playing the worst football in their lives.  

Jones has literally never looked worse.  Except for one half of one game, he is been the absolute worst QB to take a snap this season.  

Neal is the worst RT in the league

Thibs is honestly a borderline starter at this point

I can't say Mickenney is playing bad, but you don't hear his number called around the ball like a couple years ago.  

Even Thomas, before getting hurt, wasn't playing his best ball. 

Not that Slayton, Campbell, Hodgins were world beaters, but not much going on with those guys.  Robinson is THE ONLY pass catcher that causes excitement.  

Waller is invisible. 

The defense actually isn't bad, actually I think considering everything they've played about as well as expected.  But the offense is the worst thing to ever step on a field, and if not for the 2nd half of the Cards game, they would be proving that statistically.  

And yeah, I am in no rush to clean house again, but something needs to spark this coaching staff because they are not getting it done, from coaching players to calling plays.  

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

1 hour ago, RandolphScott said:

You can’t do misdirection against teams like Dallas or San Fran. Their defenses are too fast and agile. 

For sure... yet they kept doing it.  You have to go straight ahead with a run game and beat them up some.  Then try to throw.

[gmenroc]

I think some of it is the inability to rebound stemming from week 1.  I think that has lingered.  I think a lot of guys thought we'd be better than we are and I think there too, is a mindset that we aren't just losing...we are getting embarrassed.  In other words...guys believe they are this bad.  Confidence is as low as it gets and no amount of lip service is gonna get it done...be it from coaches or players.

The only way to fix it is to go out and play respectable football.  But with 2 asskickings on the schedule the next two weeks, I expect the downward spiral to continue.

[Mr. P]

8 hours ago, Virginia Giant said:

I don't want him fired, and there are plenty of reasons this team sucks, including those you mention.  But for the life of me every single important player on the team, that should be the building blocks of the next 10 years, is playing the worst football in their lives.  

Jones has literally never looked worse.  Except for one half of one game, he is been the absolute worst QB to take a snap this season.  

Neal is the worst RT in the league

Thibs is honestly a borderline starter at this point

I can't say Mickenney is playing bad, but you don't hear his number called around the ball like a couple years ago.  

Even Thomas, before getting hurt, wasn't playing his best ball. 

Not that Slayton, Campbell, Hodgins were world beaters, but not much going on with those guys.  Robinson is THE ONLY pass catcher that causes excitement.  

Waller is invisible. 

The defense actually isn't bad, actually I think considering everything they've played about as well as expected.  But the offense is the worst thing to ever step on a field, and if not for the 2nd half of the Cards game, they would be proving that statistically.  

And yeah, I am in no rush to clean house again, but something needs to spark this coaching staff because they are not getting it done, from coaching players to calling plays.  

McKinney is playing bad.  Watch him try to tackle somebody. 

[mastershake]

2 hours ago, Mr. P said:

McKinney is playing bad.  Watch him try to tackle somebody. 

We need to replace both Safety positions this offseason.  McKinney isn't the answer. Pinnock is a backup at best. Same with Belton.

[Herc]

Probably the Barkley factor but the play calling is just way more vanilla now 

[GorillaNJ]

12 minutes ago, Herc said:

Probably the Barkley factor but the play calling is just way more vanilla now 

Can't forget about not having our all pro Left Tackle

[mastershake]

36 minutes ago, Herc said:

Probably the Barkley factor but the play calling is just way more vanilla now 

Through the first two games this year dating back to the mid-season faltering last year, the giants have been 5-8-1 even with Barkley.

It's a damn shame we've wasted this guy's career because we couldn't put together even an average OL in 6 years.

[Herc]

21 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Through the first two games this year dating back to the mid-season faltering last year, the giants have been 5-8-1 even with Barkley.

It's a damn shame we've wasted this guy's career because we couldn't put together even an average OL in 6 years.

Yep.  It’s why you don’t buy the rims before you buy the car

[gmenroc]

36 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Through the first two games this year dating back to the mid-season faltering last year, the giants have been 5-8-1 even with Barkley.

It's a damn shame we've wasted this guy's career because we couldn't put together even an average OL in 6 years.

Bingo...and not saying he'd be all pro...but the Jones conversation would be quite different too.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

They thought they would be better... the NFC has done a great job of scouting Daboll and Giants tendencies... they have to do more vanilla straight forward play calling until they are able to employ more misdirection against second echelon teams.  This is essential.  Also there has to be a realization that the Giants are still rebuilding.  I am sorry they won a playoff game with DJ and Barkley because neither are the long term future.  They are the naked now... that is it.  I dare say in three years DJ and Barkley will hardly get an utterance.

[mastershake]

What really grinds my gears is how other teams like Philly have been able to put together a GREAT OL, yet we can't even get close to below average. Sure they have Kelce and Lane Johnson, but they also developed Dickerson, pulled a high caliber LT Mailata out of their ass in the 7th round, Cam Jurgens was looking good until he just got hurt.

 Even the Chiefs. Take a guy like Joe Thuney, who they signed in 2021 to a big contract. Instead that offseason, we fucking sign Kenny Golladay, and insist continuing this farce of starting Guards of Will Hernandez and Lemieux (and insisting Will Hernandez be flanked at RT by fucking Nate Solder)....and fucking Billy Price at C.

This OL stuff really gets me going. The incompetence. 

Coaching, the actual mentoring/teaching of the players might be a factor, but you don't go into a 2023 season with no competent guards to speak of, and wishful thinking on Neal and on a rookie JMS, and expect a good OL. You just don't bank on that. I ask again, did we really need Barkely and Leonard Williams, instead of two capable starting OL in the offseason?

I don't get why anyone in the media, fans, etc are surprised the 2023 OL is garbage. It's really not a shocking result. It's an expected result. This is what happens when you leave 4 out of 5 OL positions to wishful thinking.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

I have said it from the beginning... we overpaid DJ and thank GOD we did not overpay Barkley... however it is the coaching when you keep drafting high for OL, and still have "projects" that never work out.  Whether it is moving someone from the left side to the right side or the reverse; to attempting to play someone at guard or tackle outside of their preferred positions.  Draft a tackle or a guard.  Not a tweener or someone YOU THINK (coaching staff) can fill both roles.  It is abominable and we have to stop trying to do things on the sly or cheap.  Offensive lines take two to three years of steady play to create and gel.  Not the stuff we have been getting from the Giants for the past 12 years.

[gmenroc]

Scouting is a big piece too.  I think our scouting dept sucks more than our coaching...by a lot

[Nas]

22 hours ago, mastershake said:

Plus Carolina puts up 27 pts on them, but we can't get more than 3, while they're the 4th worst defense in the league.

Broken clock alert: it’s the offensive line, wise guy.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

The scouting since the Reese days has been abysmal.  I think Reese was their last good scout.. he was a good evaluator of talent at that level.  He rose to his level of incompetence maybe.  Peter Principle brought to life.  Since the last Eli Superbowl we have been spinning our wheels.

[Iceman_NYG]

19 hours ago, gmenroc said:

I think some of it is the inability to rebound stemming from week 1.  I think that has lingered.  I think a lot of guys thought we'd be better than we are and I think there too, is a mindset that we aren't just losing...we are getting embarrassed.  In other words...guys believe they are this bad.  Confidence is as low as it gets and no amount of lip service is gonna get it done...be it from coaches or players.

The only way to fix it is to go out and play respectable football.  But with 2 asskickings on the schedule the next two weeks, I expect the downward spiral to continue.

I dont think this can be put any better than what you just said. They got their heads shattered in Game 1, and Game 3 in 4 days without Saquon and Thomas - killed it.

9 hours ago, mastershake said:

What really grinds my gears is how other teams like Philly have been able to put together a GREAT OL, yet we can't even get close to below average. Sure they have Kelce and Lane Johnson, but they also developed Dickerson, pulled a high caliber LT Mailata out of their ass in the 7th round, Cam Jurgens was looking good until he just got hurt.

 Even the Chiefs. Take a guy like Joe Thuney, who they signed in 2021 to a big contract. Instead that offseason, we fucking sign Kenny Golladay, and insist continuing this farce of starting Guards of Will Hernandez and Lemieux (and insisting Will Hernandez be flanked at RT by fucking Nate Solder)....and fucking Billy Price at C.

This OL stuff really gets me going. The incompetence. 

Coaching, the actual mentoring/teaching of the players might be a factor, but you don't go into a 2023 season with no competent guards to speak of, and wishful thinking on Neal and on a rookie JMS, and expect a good OL. You just don't bank on that. I ask again, did we really need Barkely and Leonard Williams, instead of two capable starting OL in the offseason?

I don't get why anyone in the media, fans, etc are surprised the 2023 OL is garbage. It's really not a shocking result. It's an expected result. This is what happens when you leave 4 out of 5 OL positions to wishful thinking.

Very very true. The thing is - 2 of the biggest voices on the line are out - 2 leaders are out. And the rest of the team does not 'believe' they can be competent or win. They look defeated - yeah its also the coaching - other teams who are worse than the Giants in terms of talent are atleast putting up a fight. When Geno got pissed after that Simmons tackle and he kept at it - that fires up a team. Jones got hit late badly in the Dallas game and NOT ONE SINGLE GUY GOT IN THE FACE OF DALLAS. They just went all Mary fucking Poppins and lined up for the next play. You need that fucking fire - you need that energy and this team doesnt have it as of now.