Somebody explain this to me... Eli's kneel down

[Virginia Giant]

Didn't mean to say stupid Storm, I just disagree. I don't think you're stupid, just wrong.

[RandolphScott]

I think what Coughlin is most upset about is the fact that a few offensive linemen got their knees taken out and that's kinda the unwritten rule in most sports.

 

I get the whole "60 minutes blah blah blah mantra" in which Schiano is full of shit...because they let Andre Brown just waltz into the endzone from the 2 yard line, I guess they weren't playing hard then, they should have. They could have won!!!!

 

I think if Eli or someone else got hurt because of it, lots of people in the media would be singing a different tune. I mean, fuck..even Rodney Harrison said it was "cheap" and that guy knows a thing or two about dirty plays and cheap shots. Deion Sanders said it was cheap and that's a guy who never attempted a tackle.

[fringe]

The Patriots in Superbowl 42 didn't act like faggots when the Giants took a knee.

 

 

Well, that and half the team walked off the field.

 

Belicheck was in the locker room.

[Treehugger]

So, every time you see a kneel down, everyone just stands up and walks off the field. Got ya.

 

Of course not, they actually hit the guy across from him, even if it is the end of the game. There's no unwritten law anywhere that says you can't try to generate pressure real fast to disrupt the snap. lol.

 

The NFL sided with the Bucs, and it's not only a legal play, it's a smart play if you aren't aiming for knees. Why everyone from Eli to Coughlin is bitching about this is beyond me. You bitched at the coach and told him what you thought, listen to your own advice and keep the rest of it in-house. Christ.

 

I agree with you Storm. I said the same thing in the other thread. I just find your "hundreds of NFL teams" exaggeration to be funny.

[Storm]

I think what Coughlin is most upset about is the fact that a few offensive linemen got their knees taken out and that's kinda the unwritten rule in most sports.

 

I get the whole "60 minutes blah blah blah mantra" in which Schiano is full of shit...because they let Andre Brown just waltz into the endzone from the 2 yard line, I guess they weren't playing hard then, they should have. They could have won!!!!

 

I think if Eli or someone else got hurt because of it, lots of people in the media would be singing a different tune. I mean, fuck..even Rodney Harrison said it was "cheap" and that guy knows a thing or two about dirty plays and cheap shots. Deion Sanders said it was cheap and that's a guy who never attempted a tackle.

 

I agree with him there. If the intention was to hurt someone, obviously, that's fucking wrong. I don't disagree with being aggressive in that situation, though.

[Storm]

I agree with you Storm. I said the same thing in the other thread. I just find your "hundreds of NFL teams" exaggeration to be funny.

 

Well, 32 have probably done it several times throughout the history of the kneel down, is more what I meant. It doesn't happen often, but unlike VG, I very RARELY see everyone just stand up and give up and walk away....usually, they still engage each other, just not to the extent and unsportsmanlike way that the Bucs did. It's by no means how hard they'd hit had it been 3rd and 1 with 55 seconds left but it's not merely just the two teams walking away...it is normally a formality, that I agree with. But I've seen teams legitimately go for the fumble similar to that, before, too....

[fringe]

I think what Coughlin is most upset about is the fact that a few offensive linemen got their knees taken out and that's kinda the unwritten rule in most sports.

 

I get the whole "60 minutes blah blah blah mantra" in which Schiano is full of shit...because they let Andre Brown just waltz into the endzone from the 2 yard line, I guess they weren't playing hard then, they should have. They could have won!!!!

 

I think if Eli or someone else got hurt because of it, lots of people in the media would be singing a different tune. I mean, fuck..even Rodney Harrison said it was "cheap" and that guy knows a thing or two about dirty plays and cheap shots. Deion Sanders said it was cheap and that's a guy who never attempted a tackle.

I think that was the right call at the time.

[RandolphScott]

I agree with him there. If the intention was to hurt someone, obviously, that's fucking wrong. I don't disagree with being aggressive in that situation, though.

 

I don't disagree either, but it was pretty apparent they dove for the Giants offensive linesman knees. This isn't college anymore Greggy, people's livelihoods are at risk.

 

But, I will say this...I've seen a bunch of teams just kinda stand around milling about when the kneel down is performed. I've seen the Cowboys do it a bunch of times (haha!) and obviously the Patriots in Superbowl 42. I've never seen a team go that balls to the wall for it though.

[RandolphScott]

I think that was the right call at the time.

 

I agree. But you can't stand up with a straight face and say "we played hard for 60 minutes." Because, clearly..you and your team did not do that.

[RandolphScott]

And let's face it, Greg Schiano has Bill Sheridan calling his defensive plays. Yeah, THAT Bill Sheridan.

 

Are you at all shocked that Eli Manning had a career day against his defense?

[Storm]

And let's face it, Greg Schiano has Bill Sheridan calling his defensive plays. Yeah, THAT Bill Sheridan.

 

Are you at all shocked that Eli Manning had a career day against his defense?

 

hahaha, I said that same thing in the game day thread

[Storm]

I don't disagree either, but it was pretty apparent they dove for the Giants offensive linesman knees. This isn't college anymore Greggy, people's livelihoods are at risk.

 

But, I will say this...I've seen a bunch of teams just kinda stand around milling about when the kneel down is performed. I've seen the Cowboys do it a bunch of times (haha!) and obviously the Patriots in Superbowl 42. I've never seen a team go that balls to the wall for it though.

 

Agreed.

[Nas]

I don't disagree either, but it was pretty apparent they dove for the Giants offensive linesman knees. This isn't college anymore Greggy, people's livelihoods are at risk.

 

But, I will say this...I've seen a bunch of teams just kinda stand around milling about when the kneel down is performed. I've seen the Cowboys do it a bunch of times (haha!) and obviously the Patriots in Superbowl 42. I've never seen a team go that balls to the wall for it though.

 

And it's not like the team snapping the ball is taking the play lightly... I think what TB did was lame..

[RandolphScott]

And it's not like the team snapping the ball is taking the play lightly... I think what TB did was lame..

 

Eh, I think they sorta do. Chris Snee kinda said it during his post game interview, he implied that the offensive is "giving themselves up" because it's a kneel down.

[GorillaNJ]

I think it was the right situation for him to call this defensive play against the wrong team. Maybe up against a rookie qb or center... Exposing a week link in a desperate moment.

 

Could you imagine if Eli got hurt? The way the nfl "protects" the qb... Shianno would be suspended for the season and his team fined

[CrazedDogs]

Why is it that when a QB gives himself up on a slide you can't hit him, but when he gives himself up by taking a knee at the end of the game it's not only OK, but "if it worked it would have been genius?"

 

Ah, I'm not the only one thats noticed.

 

And the answer is... it would be a penalty. Had one of the offensive linemen missed his block and someone came free at Eli, it would have been a flag on Tampa for hitting a player who had given himself up.

[gmenroc]

It was a good play by the Bucs, both in planning AND execution. Here's why.

 

1. The point differential was only 1 score. Going all out with 5 seconds remaining to disrupt a snap or trip up a QB to hopefully cause a fumble that hopefully is returned for that TD...I have no problems with that. The fact that the Giants announced to the Bucs that they were going to kneel and that the Giants expected them to lay off is garbage.

 

2. The best way to cause the disruption they wanted was to submarine the O-Line, reaching through to grab Eli's ankle or whatever.

 

3. The Giants O-Line should have seen what was coming had they just looked at the Bucs lining up, ready to tee off.

 

4. Coughlin preaches to play 60 minutes...his O-Line did not. His O-Line, could easily have shuffled their feet back and fallen on top of the lunging D-Lineman.

 

The intent of the Bucs was clearly not to injure our guys, but rather to play the last play, hoping for something to go their way. As a Giants fan, I find significantly more fault at the way the Giants handled that last play, then the way the Bucs did.

 

Now...IF the differential was 9 pts or more...than there's no reason for it and the Bucs would have been bush league to pull that kind of play. But with it being only 7, they were 100%, completely justified in doing what they did as far as I'm concerned.

[NightFire]

I think that was the right call at the time.

 

I don't. I get the strategy but I think FGs are screwed up more than trying to go the whole field and having to get a TD. Also seems more likely you could get a fumble or INT.

[CrazedDogs]

It was a good play by the Bucs, both in planning AND execution. Here's why.

 

1. The point differential was only 1 score. Going all out with 5 seconds remaining to disrupt a snap or trip up a QB to hopefully cause a fumble that hopefully is returned for that TD...I have no problems with that. The fact that the Giants announced to the Bucs that they were going to kneel and that the Giants expected them to lay off is garbage.

 

2. The best way to cause the disruption they wanted was to submarine the O-Line, reaching through to grab Eli's ankle or whatever.

 

3. The Giants O-Line should have seen what was coming had they just looked at the Bucs lining up, ready to tee off.

 

4. Coughlin preaches to play 60 minutes...his O-Line did not. His O-Line, could easily have shuffled their feet back and fallen on top of the lunging D-Lineman.

 

The intent of the Bucs was clearly not to injure our guys, but rather to play the last play, hoping for something to go their way. As a Giants fan, I find significantly more fault at the way the Giants handled that last play, then the way the Bucs did.

 

Now...IF the differential was 9 pts or more...than there's no reason for it and the Bucs would have been bush league to pull that kind of play. But with it being only 7, they were 100%, completely justified in doing what they did as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

For what its worth, I'm almost positive I have seen a flag thrown when the QB got hit while taking a knee. I think it was at the end of a half. Had to be about 20 years ago though, so I'm fuzzy on it. I'm just saying, because from a pure football strategy standpoint a flag can't hurt you anymore, so that doesn't factor in to the wisdom of the move.

 

But here's the thing about a gentleman's agreement. By violating the agreement, you may not be breaking any rules, however gentleman's agreements are typically 'golden rule' type arrangements, don't do to others what you don't want done to you.... and everybody remembers who isn't keeping up their end of the deal.

 

From the standpoint of pure football tactics, yes, I agree, good hard play... but, consider the risk v. reward. The odds of it working were basically nil.... no chance. There's virtually no history of an NFL team losing the ball on a kneel down, let alone having it returned the other way. But they took the chance anyway, and predictably it didn't work.... and now they're going to have to deal with the consequences of that. Which are:

 

From now on everybody will be ready for their level of intensity, and the Bucs will likely be on the receiving end of the same sort tactics. If football were a perfect morality play, later this year some other team will submarine the Bucs offensive line on a kneel down and take out Nick's knee, or give Freeman a broken collarbone, or something. Point is, this is more likely to go badly for the Bucs in a way that makes winning or losing a single game in week 2 seem very unimportant. I doubt Schiano has thought it through quite that far.

[GorillaNJ]

Point is, this is more likely to go badly for the Bucs in a way that makes winning or losing a single game in week 2 seem very unimportant. I doubt Schiano has thought it through quite that far.

 

When you watch the replay it is obvious this was a practiced play... the CB's were crashing in around the ends looking for a loose ball... A week 2 win against the superbowl champs would be a nice feather in your cap if you are Tampa Bay... could come down to wild card seating against an NFC opponent.

[CrazedDogs]

When you watch the replay it is obvious this was a practiced play... the CB's were crashing in around the ends looking for a loose ball... A week 2 win against the superbowl champs would be a nice feather in your cap if you are Tampa Bay... could come down to wild card seating against an NFC opponent.

 

And if that playoff opponent should happen to be the Giants?... lol.... I pity the Bucs.

 

And yes, they definitely practiced that play. There were even a couple linebackers pretending to give up the play pre-snap. It was obviously intended to give the impression that it was going to be a typical kneel down.

 

Another aspect to this Schiano didn't think through: maybe that play would have been better saved for a bigger game? Now its on film, now it won't take anybody by surprise.

[gmenroc]

Point is, this is more likely to go badly for the Bucs in a way that makes winning or losing a single game in week 2 seem very unimportant. I doubt Schiano has thought it through quite that far.

 

I think it's quite the opposite given Schiano's comments referring to his time at Rutgers and referring to his current coaching style with the Bucs. I think Schiano wants his team to play to the final gun and give it their all, no matter what, so long as there is a chance to win the game, regardless of how little that chance is.

 

It's like deciding whether or not to apply for a job that you're very, very likely not to get. If you don't apply, you have 100% chance of not getting it. If you do apply, you have a 99% chance of not getting it. You bank on the 1% of getting it...not the 0%.

 

You have a valid point about long term effects of that decision. Other teams will play the Bucs down to the wire so long as there's a chance to win. And to be perfectly honest...that makes for a better league in my opinion. So again, I don't know that I have a reason to be pissed at Schiano for calling the play the way he did.

[GorillaNJ]

And if that playoff opponent should happen to be the Giants?... lol.... I pity the Bucs.

 

And yes, they definitely practiced that play. There were even a couple linebackers pretending to give up the play pre-snap. It was obviously intended to give the impression that it was going to be a typical kneel down.

 

Another aspect to this Schiano didn't think through: maybe that play would have been better saved for a bigger game? Now its on film, now it won't take anybody by surprise.

 

True.. but how often will you find yourself down a score facing the Victory formation? I think he would much rather have had been able to save it for a rookie QB or Center for success.

 

If nothing else the play call has gotten his name on the news....

[CrazedDogs]

I think it's quite the opposite given Schiano's comments referring to his time at Rutgers and referring to his current coaching style with the Bucs. I think Schiano wants his team to play to the final gun and give it their all, no matter what, so long as there is a chance to win the game, regardless of how little that chance is.

 

It's like deciding whether or not to apply for a job that you're very, very likely not to get. If you don't apply, you have 100% chance of not getting it. If you do apply, you have a 99% chance of not getting it. You bank on the 1% of getting it...not the 0%.

 

Yeah, I can't fault him for wanting his team to play hard until the clock is at 0:00. I just don't think that 0.01% chance of the play working is worth it. There's a reason you don't see other teams doing it, and I highly doubt its because Schiano is just that much smarter than every other head coach in the NFL.

 

I think its telling that the only football guys turned talking head I've heard saying it was a good play fall into one of two groups: either former Eagles from the Buddy Ryan era (Golic and Jaws), or a Saint from their bounty era (Heath Evans). Hmmm. Otherwise, to a man, especially the coaches, are all like... wtf man? Even Ditka, who somewhat defended the move, also said 'what goes around, comes around'.

[Sephiroth]

If Eli fumbles and it goes for 7.... it is a totally different story.

 

What if he falls funny and separates his shoulder?