Did the Giants lose the JPP trade?

[Sephiroth]

Yes.

 

[BlueInCanada]

I read that article as well.

Hard to say what he's saying is wrong.

They got a DE who's taking on a leadership role and has still been a good DE.

The Giants still haven't found any pass rusher a to replace him after all these years.

[Storm]

He was injured all season his first season there..

[BlueInCanada]

57 minutes ago, Storm said:

He was injured all season his first season there..

And he still has more sacks than anyone on the Giants who has replaced him.

[Storm]

2 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

And he still has more sacks than anyone on the Giants who has replaced him.

False, he didn’t even have more than Golden last year.

[mastershake]

You know what's interesting, the top 5 paid players on the Bucs outside of Tom Brady are ($61mm of cap space allocated to these):

- WR Mike Evans (pro bowl caliber WR)

- DE/OLB Shaq Barrett (a top pass rusher)

- LT Donovan Smith (a good LT)

- DE Jason Pierre Paul (a good pass rusher, if you get 8-10 sacks out of him)

- G Ali Marpet (a good G)

One other point, the Bucs have ~$28mm invested in two guys who produced 28 sacks last year ($1mm per sack), versus the giants who have $22mm invested in two guys who produced 1.5 sacks last year ($14mm per sack).

 

Meanwhile, here are our top 5 players ($68mm of cap space allocated to these):

- LT Nate Solder (a disaster)

- DE Leonard Williams (overpaid/overrated)

- G Kevin Zeitler (Good G who I'm fine with)

- WR Golden Tate

- LB Blake Martinez

 

Getty has us paying $7mm more for this bullshit vs the Bucs. I fucking hate him.

 

Is anyone confident about our OL and pass rush going into this season? I'm not.

[Storm]

Tate was a horrible signing at what they’re paying him. I personally don’t think he should be seeing the field this year over a Corey Coleman or top three round drafted WR. I am also not a huge fan of Sterling Shepard’s contract.

[boohyah]

Corey Coleman over Golden Tate. Nah!!

I thought we could have gotten more for JPP, but I don't miss him a bit. He had it all except brains. Before he blew off his fingers, I'll not forget that video of him carrying Amukamara and throwing him down into a tub. He could have fucked up our first round pick for the season. 

[Herc]

5 hours ago, Storm said:

Tate was a horrible signing at what they’re paying him. I personally don’t think he should be seeing the field this year over a Corey Coleman or top three round drafted WR. I am also not a huge fan of Sterling Shepard’s contract.

It made no sense.  The guy was past his peak and we had just finished selling off big contracts.  This Daniel jones pick is the only reason why he still has a little bit of goodwill left with me 

[Iceman_NYG]

Yes they did. They lost the JPP trade badly. JPP even if the sack total is not that high draws double teams almost every other play - this opens up opportunities for the others. Shaqil Barrett might not have the kind of success he had in the recent past if not for JPP being present on that line. Yes - we did lose that trade, just like we will also lose the Odell trade.

[mastershake]

Such a disgrace.

And the other interesting part is....Getty brings in Leonard Williams to replace a guy, BJ Hill, who produced 5.5 sacks for the team the previous season (in his rookie season), and a high 3rd round pick at that. Leonard Williams then proceeds to post 0.5 sacks in 8 games for us this season, the equivalant of 1 sacks per season. How much better is Williams than BJ Hill really? Is he really $16mm better? For a few more pressures per year? Heck, even PFF for what it's worth has BJ Hill graded above Leonard Williams.

So when we finally part ways with Leonard Williams after this season and his one year contract, we will have wasted 3rd and 5th for him, plus likely squandered a 3rd rounder on BJ Hill. 

Gettleman is a moron. For every good move he makes (Daniel Jones, Dexter Lawrence), he makes two dumb moves, and then fails to make the other/additional move he should have made.

 

[CrazedDogs]

I don't think JPP's performance since the trade changes the fact that he had, very deservedly, eroded all faith that he would ever be in the right place mentally to sustain success in the NFL. 

Then he did sustain success.... it's a roll of the dice, what can you do. The smart money doesn't bet on guys like that unless you believe your team is just that one piece away. 

And BJ Hill, I still have high hopes for him, but if you focused on him any last year then you know just how poorly he played compared to his rookie season. Not sure what that was about, I couldn't find out anything about injuries or other mitigating circumstances. I suspect, unfortunately, his work ethic went south. He looked sloppy fat in 2019, compared to the solid guy that took the field in 2018.

[Sephiroth]

For the record, I supported the JPP trade when it happened.  

The thing about Gettleman is... I love the theory of what he's doing... I just don't love the practice. 

Getty came in with the idea to build the O-line and running game to help an aging Eli Manning not have to throw 50 passes a game on a 40-year-old arm, and to help ease in whoever his successor was going to be.  I had literally been asking this of Jerry Reese for four years before we got rid of him, when Reese was drafting luxury pieces like Even Engram  and Eli Apple. Getting rid of bloated contracts was a good idea so that when the new guy came in we had assets to build the "run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer" group that we wanted. 

But many of the moves have me scratching my head.  This is supposed to be our "big spending" offseason and we blew our money on Blake Martinez and Leonard WIlliams? We got assets for JPP, one of which may still be a player... but Kyle Lauletta?  Did anybody really think he was going to be an impact player on this team?  Did anyone even think he'd be a situational role-player? What's with the Leonard Williams love... we just got rid of an overpaid guy who "almost makes the play" in Olivier Vernon.  Why are we throwing the bank at this guy when we have 3 other competent-to-good DTs on the team? 

Nate Solder, as stated, is a disaster. I understand needing a competent player there and we really had no other options, but could we have front-loaded the contract?  We're in year three  and our LT, C, and RT are all below average players.  I love that he's paying attention to the linebacker position but I'm not sure the guys on the roster today are better than the guys from last year.... who really weren't great either, but again, Reese left the cupboard bare and you had to have at least NFL-level talent like Ogletree. 

So yeah, Getty gets one more year from me.  If the team isn't significantly better I think it's time to look elsewhere for our team-building future.  I hope it's someone who still values a run game and line play but just is a little better at evaluating talent and doesn't assume he knows better than everyone else. 

[Sephiroth]

6 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

I don't think JPP's performance since the trade changes the fact that he had, very deservedly, eroded all faith that he would ever be in the right place mentally to sustain success in the NFL. 

Then he did sustain success.... it's a roll of the dice, what can you do. The smart money doesn't bet on guys like that unless you believe your team is just that one piece away. 

And BJ Hill, I still have high hopes for him, but if you focused on him any last year then you know just how poorly he played compared to his rookie season. Not sure what that was about, I couldn't find out anything about injuries or other mitigating circumstances. I suspect, unfortunately, his work ethic went south. He looked sloppy fat in 2019, compared to the solid guy that took the field in 2018.

Another thing too... somebody posted a stat two seasons ago along the line of "of JPP's 12.5 sacks, 10 came when the team was down by 3 scores in the 4th quarter."  Sound familiar? 

Yeah, dude puts up stats and makes plays... when they don't impact the game.  Last time I remember him making an impact play that affected a game was when he blocked the FG against Dallas back in 2011.  He disappeared in the playoffs. 

[CrazedDogs]

54 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

Another thing too... somebody posted a stat two seasons ago along the line of "of JPP's 12.5 sacks, 10 came when the team was down by 3 scores in the 4th quarter."  Sound familiar? 

Yeah, dude puts up stats and makes plays... when they don't impact the game.  Last time I remember him making an impact play that affected a game was when he blocked the FG against Dallas back in 2011.  He disappeared in the playoffs. 

It's an almost unfathomable tendency that his pressure numbers go up when the opposition is in run first mode....  its almost like JPP's success is dependent upon the opposition's lapses in concentration. 

Not sure if that's held true in his time in Tampa though. 

[mastershake]

I have no problem with getting rid of JPP....problem is who have we replaced him with? Our pass rush has been sub-par last year, though Golden was a lone bright spot, and now he's gone.

Now he's gone in favor of Williams and Fackrell (yes, plus Ximines and Carter). $22mm in cap space to these two.

What are we doing?

[Tempest]

JPP was traded for one reason:  Clearing cap space.

Giants overwhelmingly succeeded in that regard.  As far as leadership, he's doing the same there he did here:  Bucs won 12 of 20 the last 2 seasons.  JPP has always been a very good player, just can't carry the team.

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

JPP was traded for one reason:  Clearing cap space.

Giants overwhelmingly succeeded in that regard.  As far as leadership, he's doing the same there he did here:  Bucs won 12 of 20 the last 2 seasons.  JPP has always been a very good player, just can't carry the team.

Clearing cap space is only a success if that cap is re-allocated to improve the team. Has it been? Solder was the major acquisition after we got rid of JPP; he's a disaster. And the O-line in general is still horrible. Meanwhile, $22mm allocated to Williams and Fackrell and their 1.5 sacks this year, and we still haven't address the O-Line this offseason.

The two highest paid players on this team being Solder and Williams, with $36mm between them, is a fucking disgrace.

[Tempest]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:27 PM, mastershake said:

Clearing cap space is only a success if that cap is re-allocated to improve the team. Has it been? Solder was the major acquisition after we got rid of JPP; he's a disaster. And the O-line in general is still horrible. Meanwhile, $22mm allocated to Williams and Fackrell and their 1.5 sacks this year, and we still haven't address the O-Line this offseason.

The two highest paid players on this team being Solder and Williams, with $36mm between them, is a fucking disgrace.

Only been two years, were you expecting playoffs year one or year two?  JPP was going to be paid for four under the original deal.  Patience and see what the next two years bring.

[mastershake]

10 hours ago, Tempest said:

Only been two years, were you expecting playoffs year one or year two?  JPP was going to be paid for four under the original deal.  Patience and see what the next two years bring.

I had lower expectations. I expected improvements at least, which I haven't seen. When Solder and Williams are your top paid players with $37mm allocated to them, you've seriously fucked up as a GM.

Look at Gettlemen's two years of free agency in general. Overall It's a disaster outside of Zeitler who was a trade and Markus Golden.

[Tempest]

11 hours ago, mastershake said:

I had lower expectations. I expected improvements at least, which I haven't seen. When Solder and Williams are your top paid players with $37mm allocated to them, you've seriously fucked up as a GM.

Look at Gettlemen's two years of free agency in general. Overall It's a disaster outside of Zeitler who was a trade and Markus Golden.

Not going to see much of an improvement when you missed on the head coach.

[mastershake]

45 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Not going to see much of an improvement when you missed on the head coach.

Oh Solder and Williams just need better coaching? 

Pulley and Fleming too???

[Tempest]

13 hours ago, mastershake said:

Oh Solder and Williams just need better coaching? 

Pulley and Fleming too???

If the coaches are wrong about players, fail to coach them up or utilize them to play at their best, then you will not see the expected results.  Giants signed a lot of players the last two years who were between marginal and ineffective.  Giants signed quite a few former Cardinals to fix the defense and it just did not work.  The success Bettcher had in the NFC West was not duplicated in the NFC East.  Giants have correctly identified the offensive line that it needed to be fixed.  The Giants haven't stopped for the last two years trying to fix it.  Couldn't fix it in one year.  Didn't get it right and had to cut some loose and bring in new players.  Some guys are stop gap players and others are hopefully long term solutions.

Solder was the best tackle available at the time and everyone knew going in he was average then and yet expecting a top 5 tackle?  Now back to Williams, Gettleman sees something very few do, as to what that may be is everyone else's guess.  Can't defend that decision but will see how it plays out.

LOL is there anyone you don't want to whine about this offseason?  Pulley started 10 games for the Giants and Fleming was just signed.  

[BlueInCanada]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:39 AM, Tempest said:

JPP was traded for one reason:  Clearing cap space.

Giants overwhelmingly succeeded in that regard.  As far as leadership, he's doing the same there he did here:  Bucs won 12 of 20 the last 2 seasons.  JPP has always been a very good player, just can't carry the team.

I'm not disagreeing with the trade, like you said it was a cap space decision.

However the problem with the Giants, as we have all pointed out, has simply been the lack of talent on this team and the lack of ability to develop any talent.

Be it the GMs picking/signing/trading players who rightfully don't have the talent or pan out. (Solder, Stewart, Bethea, Richburg, Williams as of now, any Getty FA really lol, etc)

Be it the coaches not being able to bring the best out of the player. (Kennard, Goodson, Joesph, etc)

Be it the player who just doesn't care enough about the team to put in the time or effort to become better. (Flowers, Moore, etc)

We havent really seen a player since the Coughlin days who has actually progressed in their career under the Giants FO/coaching staff, which has led to the massive turnover these last four/five years. Not saying keeping JPP would of fixed this, just the Giants have failed almost consistently to replace lost talent with that talent, I can only really think of Collins for Peppers being the more lateral move recently that has panned out.

Even so Peppers could be leaving after this year.

[Tempest]

8 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

I'm not disagreeing with the trade, like you said it was a cap space decision.

However the problem with the Giants, as we have all pointed out, has simply been the lack of talent on this team and the lack of ability to develop any talent.

Be it the GMs picking/signing/trading players who rightfully don't have the talent or pan out. (Solder, Stewart, Bethea, Richburg, Williams as of now, any Getty FA really lol, etc)

Be it the coaches not being able to bring the best out of the player. (Kennard, Goodson, Joesph, etc)

Be it the player who just doesn't care enough about the team to put in the time or effort to become better. (Flowers, Moore, etc)

We havent really seen a player since the Coughlin days who has actually progressed in their career under the Giants FO/coaching staff, which has led to the massive turnover these last four/five years. Not saying keeping JPP would of fixed this, just the Giants have failed almost consistently to replace lost talent with that talent, I can only really think of Collins for Peppers being the more lateral move recently that has panned out.

Even so Peppers could be leaving after this year.

I'll take Solder over Flowers any day of the week at Tackle, Ogletree was the best linebacker we've had in years which speaks volumes, etc.  For all the flack that Solder gets deservedly he has not hid from it, he owns it while Flowers never wanted to hear it and ran from it.

There is talent but it has to come together or you just have individuals not a team.  Peppers staying or going is irrelevant because he was brought in to replace Collins and that was a salary cap move as well.  We could have paid Collins what he asked and still be a 4-12 team.