Did the Giants lose the JPP trade?

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

I'll take Solder over Flowers any day of the week at Tackle, Ogletree was the best linebacker we've had in years which speaks volumes, etc.  For all the flack that Solder gets deservedly he has not hid from it, he owns it while Flowers never wanted to hear it and ran from it.

There is talent but it has to come together or you just have individuals not a team.  Peppers staying or going is irrelevant because he was brought in to replace Collins and that was a salary cap move as well.  We could have paid Collins what he asked and still be a 4-12 team.

The only problem I have with this statement is you lose a player like Peppers and who replaces him? The Giants got lucky they could replace Collins with a trade, who will probably be leaving when he gets paid a contract similar to Collins.

That's the issue we have.

We have some talent players, Barkley obviously, Lawrence, Baker, Jones, Slayton is hopfully not a one year wonder.

We just don't have a lot of talent, or are replacing the talent we have lost those years we were in the playoffs.

There isn't a single offensive lineman on this team I would take over a single player from the 2007 OL, Solder would be a bench player on that team.

You're right, we havent had the coaching to really bring the team together and utilize it's strengths, I just also feel we don't have a lot of strengths or have been getting stronger the last couple of years, compared to the year prior.

 

[mastershake]

23 hours ago, Tempest said:

If the coaches are wrong about players, fail to coach them up or utilize them to play at their best, then you will not see the expected results.  Giants signed a lot of players the last two years who were between marginal and ineffective.  Giants signed quite a few former Cardinals to fix the defense and it just did not work.  The success Bettcher had in the NFC West was not duplicated in the NFC East.  Giants have correctly identified the offensive line that it needed to be fixed.  The Giants haven't stopped for the last two years trying to fix it.  Couldn't fix it in one year.  Didn't get it right and had to cut some loose and bring in new players.  Some guys are stop gap players and others are hopefully long term solutions.

Solder was the best tackle available at the time and everyone knew going in he was average then and yet expecting a top 5 tackle?  Now back to Williams, Gettleman sees something very few do, as to what that may be is everyone else's guess.  Can't defend that decision but will see how it plays out.

LOL is there anyone you don't want to whine about this offseason?  Pulley started 10 games for the Giants and Fleming was just signed.  

 

Having three huge gaps on the offensive line, C, LT, and RT, heading into the draft is a grave error leaving the line seriously deficient (plus, the jury is still out on Will Hernandez who was terrible last year). We could have used $17+mm in precious cap space from the Leonard Williams contract and $4mm from Fleming to bring in actual capable linemen like Graham Glasgow at C and Bryan Bulaga at RT. I would have felt much better about the O-line if we made those additions. 

Who can you trust on this O-Line going into the season besides Kevin Zeitler?

Williams and Fleming. That's nearly $22mm of seriously dumb decisions. I could live with the Bradberry and Martinez signings, as those actually fill voids on the team....while Williams and Fleming add little,  while leaving gaping holes on the O-Line.

So instead of proven veterans in Glasgow and Bulaga, we're going to have a patchwork offensive line for the 6th season in a row. And we wonder why we keep posting 10 loss seasons consistently.

[Tempest]

17 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

The only problem I have with this statement is you lose a player like Peppers and who replaces him? The Giants got lucky they could replace Collins with a trade, who will probably be leaving when he gets paid a contract similar to Collins.

That's the issue we have.

We have some talent players, Barkley obviously, Lawrence, Baker, Jones, Slayton is hopfully not a one year wonder.

We just don't have a lot of talent, or are replacing the talent we have lost those years we were in the playoffs.

There isn't a single offensive lineman on this team I would take over a single player from the 2007 OL, Solder would be a bench player on that team.

You're right, we havent had the coaching to really bring the team together and utilize it's strengths, I just also feel we don't have a lot of strengths or have been getting stronger the last couple of years, compared to the year prior.

 

The next guy up when it comes to Peppers, it is that simple.  I think there is a lot of talent on this team, certainly more on offense than defense.  Do you know the difference between the 2004 6-10 team and the 2007 10-6 team offensive lines?  Two players.  I think we are really that close to finally getting it right.  I'd like to see a 12-4 team a lot sooner!  

[mastershake]

17 minutes ago, Tempest said:

The next guy up when it comes to Peppers, it is that simple.  I think there is a lot of talent on this team, certainly more on offense than defense.  Do you know the difference between the 2004 6-10 team and the 2007 10-6 team offensive lines?  Two players.  I think we are really that close to finally getting it right.  I'd like to see a 12-4 team a lot sooner!  

I'm not following about Peppers. What about Peppers?

There are good spots on this roster, and there are bad spots. I feel confident about the skill position players and defensive line's ability to stop the run. I feel okay about the secondary assuming Baker grows and Love step up, while the LBs will be a real crapshoot. For the OL, I am not sold that we are any better off than a year ago, 2 years ago, 3 or 4. Two OL players can certainly make a difference, and would be nice if we had two more starting capable veterans than we have, but unfortunately that's not the case. Instead, we got Leonard Williams and Cam Fleming eating up $22mm.

The question is that $22mm a good allocation of cap space, or would we have been better off with Glasgow and Bulaga, and I think it's a no brainer that Glasgow and Bulaga would have been.

Counting on Nate Solder, at LT again, most likely a rookie tackle in rounds 1 and 2 to come in right away OR Fleming OR Gates, Pulley or a rookie at Center, and a still unproven Hernandez is not my idea of a well planned out, capable offensive line for 2020.  This offensive line is riddled with holes and question marks. Again. Would feel much better with Glasgow and Bulaga in there.

[Tempest]

22 minutes ago, mastershake said:

I'm not following about Peppers. What about Peppers?

There are good spots on this roster, and there are bad spots. I feel confident about the skill position players and defensive line's ability to stop the run. I feel okay about the secondary assuming Baker grows and Love step up, while the LBs will be a real crapshoot. For the OL, I am not sold that we are any better off than a year ago, 2 years ago, 3 or 4. Two OL players can certainly make a difference, and would be nice if we had two more starting capable veterans than we have, but unfortunately that's not the case. Instead, we got Leonard Williams and Cam Fleming eating up $22mm.

The question is that $22mm a good allocation of cap space, or would we have been better off with Glasgow and Bulaga, and I think it's a no brainer that Glasgow and Bulaga would have been.

Counting on Nate Solder, at LT again, most likely a rookie tackle in rounds 1 and 2 to come in right away OR Fleming OR Gates, Pulley or a rookie at Center, and a still unproven Hernandez is not my idea of a well planned out, capable offensive line for 2020.  This offensive line is riddled with holes and question marks. Again. Would feel much better with Glasgow and Bulaga in there.

Blue mentioned Peppers being a UFA in 2021.

Fleming is here because of the offensive coordinator and the offensive line coach.  Leonard Williams is here because of the general manager.  Glasgow and Baluga are two free agents among many this off season that cashed in that could have easily come here to fill in holes on the roster.  Those players will probably be off on rosters a lot closer to the playoffs than the Giants are right now.  

[CrazedDogs]

Peppers has a fifth year team option, so if we think he's good we've got him through the end of 2021. 

Have to decide on that relatively soon though. 

[BlueInCanada]

4 hours ago, Tempest said:

The next guy up when it comes to Peppers, it is that simple.  I think there is a lot of talent on this team, certainly more on offense than defense.  Do you know the difference between the 2004 6-10 team and the 2007 10-6 team offensive lines?  Two players.  I think we are really that close to finally getting it right.  I'd like to see a 12-4 team a lot sooner!  

Well you forgot to mention also three years of players development and acquisitions between 2004 and 2007 lol

You also forgot mention that the 2007 Oline was playing together in 2005 and 2006 lol it's not like they all walked in the door in 2007 and played the way they did.

This team is along way off unfortunately with the rate it loses talent and either doesn't develope or acquire talent.

Like I said outside of maybe RB there really isn't a player on the this squad who would be starting on that 2007 team lol

I've been saying it since they let Coughlin's go they should of blown the whole thing up then and got the four or five year building period started then.

Which we only just started two years ago and are probably going to push back more with the new coaching staff.

 

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, BlueInCanada said:

Well you forgot to mention also three years of players development and acquisitions between 2004 and 2007 lol

You also forgot mention that the 2007 Oline was playing together in 2005 and 2006 lol it's not like they all walked in the door in 2007 and played the way they did.

This team is along way off unfortunately with the rate it loses talent and either doesn't develope or acquire talent.

Like I said outside of maybe RB there really isn't a player on the this squad who would be starting on that 2007 team lol

I've been saying it since they let Coughlin's go they should of blown the whole thing up then and got the four or five year building period started then.

Which we only just started two years ago and are probably going to push back more with the new coaching staff.

 

Did the giants ever "blow it up" back in '03-04? The giants were an 11 win team and playoff team by '05 with a 2nd year QB, and they were a winning team in '04 before a very green Eli tookover to begin the transition.

The '05 team, which ranked 3rd in points scored and had the highest giants single year rushing total by a back ever (Barber), had Kareem McKenzie, Chris Snee, Shaun O'Hara, David Diehl, and Luke Petitgout. Holy fuck, what I would give for an offensive line like that.

Blow ups or not...when you have a good OL, good things seem to happen with your offense.

This offseason, it's not like we would have had to break the bank to improve the OL, by acquiring Bulaga and/or Glasgow for example. They went for 3 years $36mm and 4 years $44mm respectively. We easily had that money had we not re-signed Leonard Williams and didn't sign Fleming. We could have added two solid starting OL here.

Instead, we're going into the draft with three big question marks at LT, C, and RT, and Williams and Fleming, and a jury still out on Hernandez at G.

Is anyone actually satisfied that we signed Williams and Fleming at $22mm in cap space over a capable offensive line??? Is anyone honestly happy with our O-line going into this draft?

And to top it all off, we give up two draft picks, one of which is a premium high 3rd round pick, to bring in Williams...and we still leave addressing the OL to the draft. It's the fucking twighlight zone at the Giants front office.

[BlueInCanada]

9 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Did the giants ever "blow it up" back in '03-04? The giants were an 11 win team and playoff team by '05 with a 2nd year QB, and they were a winning team in '04 before a very green Eli tookover to begin the transition.

The '05 team, which ranked 3rd in points scored and had the highest giants single year rushing total by a back ever (Barber), had Kareem McKenzie, Chris Snee, Shaun O'Hara, David Diehl, and Luke Petitgout. Holy fuck, what I would give for an offensive line like that.

Blow ups or not...when you have a good OL, good things seem to happen with your offense.

This offseason, it's not like we would have had to break the bank to improve the OL, by acquiring Bulaga and/or Glasgow for example. They went for 3 years $36mm and 4 years $44mm respectively. We easily had that money had we not re-signed Leonard Williams and didn't sign Fleming. We could have added two solid starting OL here.

Instead, we're going into the draft with three big question marks at LT, C, and RT, and Williams and Fleming, and a jury still out on Hernandez at G.

Is anyone actually satisfied that we signed Williams and Fleming at $22mm in cap space over a capable offensive line??? Is anyone honestly happy with our O-line going into this draft?

And to top it all off, we give up two draft picks, one of which is a premium high 3rd round pick, to bring in Williams...and we still leave addressing the OL to the draft. It's the fucking twighlight zone at the Giants front office.

The Giants were building the team when they grabbed Eli.

They came off a SB appearance 4 years earlier even if we don't want to think about that one lol

But those situations aren't comparable at all IMO.

This current crop of Giants and as you so stated at Oline aren't a winning team they don't have the players needed at the right spots. There isn't a one year or two year turn around unfortunately. 

We aren't coming off a SB win or a run of playoff appearances with a roster of talent, we have been the worst franchise in the NFL record wise over the last three years.