Eli Manning: The Problem is?

[CrazedDogs]

Eli stays healthy, he's not that old yet, and he's proven that he can play at an elite level. I'm not sure that hitting reset on the QB position is the way to go.

 

The INT off the fingers of Myers last night was a few inches off. Okay, that happens. Just usually not to Eli at that time of the game. The other picks seemed to me to more a function of scheme, i.e., not being on the same page as the the receiver.

 

I think we've got a few things here working against Eli's stat line (and he was never a stats guy to begin with).

 

1) It looks to me like the book is out on Gilbride's playbook. I suspect that defenses are baiting receivers into seeing things differently from the quarterback; defenses may be manufacturing miscommunications through scheme.

 

Consider that on the pick 6 last night, even I - a casual fan - knew that Randle should have broken his route off against that defense. Instead he took the deep option, as if the Bears were playing single high coverage. Things like that seem to happen a lot this season - did Randle just completely blow it, or did the defense know his route combo as well as he did?

 

2) Practice time (or the lack thereof). The Giants offensive scheme is predicated on the receivers making the same read as the QB. I think with less repetitions to get synced up with your teammates you have to go with a simplified scheme, especially early in the season. It seems to me the Giants are still running the same playbook as ever. I haven't missed a snap in years... I'm starting to recognize all these plays.

[Nas]

Eli stays healthy, he's not that old yet, and he's proven that he can play at an elite level. I'm not sure that hitting reset on the QB position is the way to go.

 

The INT off the fingers of Myers last night was a few inches off. Okay, that happens. Just usually not to Eli at that time of the game. The other picks seemed to me to more a function of scheme, i.e., not being on the same page as the the receiver.

 

I think we've got a few things here working against Eli's stat line (and he was never a stats guy to begin with).

 

1) It looks to me like the book is out on Gilbride's playbook. I suspect that defenses are baiting receivers into seeing things differently from the quarterback; defenses may be manufacturing miscommunications through scheme.

 

Consider that on the pick 6 last night, even I - a casual fan - knew that Randle should have broken his route off against that defense. Instead he took the deep option, as if the Bears were playing single high coverage. Things like that seem to happen a lot this season - did Randle just completely blow it, or did the defense know his route combo as well as he did?

 

2) Practice time (or the lack thereof). The Giants offensive scheme is predicated on the receivers making the same read as the QB. I think with less repetitions to get synced up with your teammates you have to go with a simplified scheme, especially early in the season. It seems to me the Giants are still running the same playbook as ever. I haven't missed a snap in years... I'm starting to recognize all these plays.

 

It pains me to say this but if I'm able to predict plays, other defense sure as fuck can.. yes Gilbride has gotten too comfortable with his plays and everyone knows them.

[NightFire]

 

It pains me to say this but if I'm able to predict plays, other defense sure as fuck can.. yes Gilbride has gotten too comfortable with his plays and everyone knows them.

 

Defences always jump routes or read QBs eyes. This is not some new phenomenon. The issue is that the WR is making the correct adjustment while Eli is not. On the first INT the defender played outside so the WR ran inside but Eli still threw it outside. On the Randle pick Jennings was standing on the route so Randle astutely runs up field where there is zero coverage; the safety was in the middle. If Eli dumps that down the sideline it's an easy TD. If Randle, a second year WR, can make the correct adjustment how can the franchise QB not? C'Mon Man.

[Steitzenhaus]

 

Defences always jump routes or read QBs eyes. This is not some new phenomenon. The issue is that the WR is making the correct adjustment while Eli is not. On the first INT the defender played outside so the WR ran inside but Eli still threw it outside. On the Randle pick Jennings was standing on the route so Randle astutely runs up field where there is zero coverage; the safety was in the middle. If Eli dumps that down the sideline it's an easy TD. If Randle, a second year WR, can make the correct adjustment how can the franchise QB not? C'Mon Man.

Yeah, I was wondering what the hell Mike Mayock was talking about when he said the second pick was Randle's fault. Was he supposed to sit down where Jennings was? You're right on the first one as well. Maybe they need to simplify things a little bit until Eli can get it together because that was a very winnable game last night where I thought just about everybody made some meaningful contributions.

[Herc]

maycock's a clown. he's the only commentator that distracts me from the game. i don't even wtach the thursday games unless i have some kind of vested interest in it

[Sephiroth]

Eli stays healthy, he's not that old yet, and he's proven that he can play at an elite level. I'm not sure that hitting reset on the QB position is the way to go.

 

The INT off the fingers of Myers last night was a few inches off. Okay, that happens. Just usually not to Eli at that time of the game. The other picks seemed to me to more a function of scheme, i.e., not being on the same page as the the receiver.

 

I think we've got a few things here working against Eli's stat line (and he was never a stats guy to begin with).

 

1) It looks to me like the book is out on Gilbride's playbook. I suspect that defenses are baiting receivers into seeing things differently from the quarterback; defenses may be manufacturing miscommunications through scheme.

 

Consider that on the pick 6 last night, even I - a casual fan - knew that Randle should have broken his route off against that defense. Instead he took the deep option, as if the Bears were playing single high coverage. Things like that seem to happen a lot this season - did Randle just completely blow it, or did the defense know his route combo as well as he did?

 

2) Practice time (or the lack thereof). The Giants offensive scheme is predicated on the receivers making the same read as the QB. I think with less repetitions to get synced up with your teammates you have to go with a simplified scheme, especially early in the season. It seems to me the Giants are still running the same playbook as ever. I haven't missed a snap in years... I'm starting to recognize all these plays.

For the record, I'm not saying we should outright replace Eli. I'm saying he should be put on notice. The guy is a two-time Super Bowl MVP and deserves a shitty season, or even two, before he's out... and Gilly should definitely go before Eli does.

 

Now, that being said, Kerry Collins was a pretty darn good quarterback when he was in New York, and that didn't stop us from taking our franchise guy to lead the team for the next ten years. If and when we're statistically out of the playoffs, it'll be time to see if Ryan Nassib has what it takes to compete at the NFL level. If not, then getting a new QB should at least be on the table... we can't get by with another year of play like this out of a guy making 22 million, and it's time to start looking at "plan B" for if Eli doesn't recover from this.

[GorillaNJ]

For the record, I'm not saying we should outright replace Eli. I'm saying he should be put on notice. The guy is a two-time Super Bowl MVP and deserves a shitty season, or even two, before he's out... and Gilly should definitely go before Eli does.

 

Now, that being said, Kerry Collins was a pretty darn good quarterback when he was in New York, and that didn't stop us from taking our franchise guy to lead the team for the next ten years. If and when we're statistically out of the playoffs, it'll be time to see if Ryan Nassib has what it takes to compete at the NFL level. If not, then getting a new QB should at least be on the table... we can't get by with another year of play like this out of a guy making 22 million, and it's time to start looking at "plan B" for if Eli doesn't recover from this.

 

I cannot imagine Eli getting benched... or how he would act if he was benched! Maybe if the Giants can get a big lead on some team (Spiked gatorade buckets) maybe you let Eli run the offense from the sidelines and have Nassib finish the game.

[CrazedDogs]

 

Defences always jump routes or read QBs eyes. This is not some new phenomenon. The issue is that the WR is making the correct adjustment while Eli is not. On the first INT the defender played outside so the WR ran inside but Eli still threw it outside. On the Randle pick Jennings was standing on the route so Randle astutely runs up field where there is zero coverage; the safety was in the middle. If Eli dumps that down the sideline it's an easy TD. If Randle, a second year WR, can make the correct adjustment how can the franchise QB not? C'Mon Man.

 

On the first pick I didn't know what happened. On the second they were playing cover 3, Randle was NOT supposed to go deep, he was supposed to drive on Jennings then come back to the QB.

 

If he runs the right route, Jennings is not standing there.

 

(edit: then again, Jennings may have stood his ground if he knew what was coming. But that doesn't make Randle's route any more wrong.)

 

I mean, there's a reason why Randle was getting his ass ripped up on the sidelines after that play. Don't tell me that the coaches don't even know which route he was supposed to run.

[JMFP]

PFF analysis of the pick-6

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/10/11/analysis-notebook-tnf-week-6/

 

 

 

Eli Manning threw another three interceptions in the game last night causing the Giants to fall to yet another defeat, this time 21-27 at the hands of the Chicago Bears. The three picks were all different and all showed some of the issues that Manning has been having this season, but for this Thursday Night Football edition of the Analysis Notebook I’m going to focus on the interception that was taken back to the house for a Chicago score.

 

In the NFL one of the most common forms of interception is basic miscommunication between the receiver and quarterback, and this is a classic example. Most offenses in the NFL use option routes to some degree or other. Rather than calling a play that contains a set route pattern for each receiver, routes are adjusted depending on the coverage a defense presents and can even adjust depending on the leverage certain defenders align with on the play. It’s no longer as simple as the quarterback throwing to a spot and expecting his receiver to get there, it relies on quarterback and receiver both reading the same thing and making the same adjustment to the play. When they don’t, bad things happen.

 

This is why teams covet smart receivers and why simply being a great athlete, or even a savvy route runner with great hands, won’t cut it in many offenses. It’s why Chad Johnson/Ochocinco was a lousy fit in New England. He could still play, but he couldn’t deal with the complexities of the option routes within that offense. Tom Brady couldn’t rely on him reading things the same way and making the right adjustments on any given play.

 

 

The Giants run a lot of option routes, which is why you see a lot of plays over the course of the season where Eli Manning is not on the same page with his receivers. Usually those result in just an ugly looking incompletion, but sometimes it can end up a lot worse, and this is one of those plays.

 

The reason it is a great example of a miscommunication between receiver and quarterback is because of the way LCB Tim Jennings plays it. The Bears show Eli Manning one thing pre-snap, but Tim Jennings forces a re-think with how he defends on the play. Reuben Randle adjusted one way, Eli didn’t.

 

Pre-snap the Bears are clearly showing a cover-3 look, with the two corners and FS each dropping off to cover a deep third of the field, and that is indeed the call. Against this defense the hitch route should be open and an easy completion, and that’s what the Giants are set to run. The only issue is that Jennings cheats in his coverage. Instead of dropping off to stay over the top of any vertical route run, Jennings knows the Giants will counter that with the hitch, and has no respect for the threat of the ball going over his head. He sits with his eyes on the quarterback and just waits.

 

While on the near side you can see RCB Zackary Bowman opening his hips and bailing into coverage over the top of his receiver, when Manning looks to throw the ball Jennings is flat-footed, squatting on the short route and daring the Giants to make the adjustment. At this point Manning simply cannot put the ball in the air. His only read is whether Jennings is honoring his zone or playing with a flat drop and looking to jump the hitch. It’s a simple read that he doesn’t make, or maybe made but still thought he could force the pass in had Randle continued to run the hitch. Either way, at the point Manning either sees that and decides to throw anyway, or misses it completely, he assumes a large portion of responsibility for this pick. Randle for his part isn’t as explosive into his pattern as you might like, and he doesn’t close the cushion on Jennings quickly enough to put him to a decision about whether he needs to bail from his aggressive stance. He does however, see what the corner is doing and this causes a slight hesitation before he decides that he should adjust his route over the top and have a clear path to the end zone. If Jennings isn’t honoring his zone, then Randle knows he can break beyond him and have a deep third of the field all to himself.

 

The trouble is, however, by the time he has decided what to do, Manning has already made up his mind to throw the hitch anyway. Randle breaks deep and raises his hand to wave, signalling to Manning that he is open, but the ball is already in the air and on its way straight to the waiting hands of Jennings, who can run untouched into the end zone for the score.

This is the perfect example of how one defender can force both quarterback and receiver to make a decision on the fly after the ball is snapped. If they both make the same choice this ball could have gone for a Giants score, but when they make different choices the ball gets air-mailed to the defensive back for an easy score in the other direction.

 

 

[Clarence the Blue Puppet]

The fact that his brother is having one of the best years a QB has ever had isn't helping his cause any.

[JMFP]

For the record, I'm not saying we should outright replace Eli. I'm saying he should be put on notice. The guy is a two-time Super Bowl MVP and deserves a shitty season, or even two, before he's out... and Gilly should definitely go before Eli does.

 

Now, that being said, Kerry Collins was a pretty darn good quarterback when he was in New York, and that didn't stop us from taking our franchise guy to lead the team for the next ten years. If and when we're statistically out of the playoffs, it'll be time to see if Ryan Nassib has what it takes to compete at the NFL level. If not, then getting a new QB should at least be on the table... we can't get by with another year of play like this out of a guy making 22 million, and it's time to start looking at "plan B" for if Eli doesn't recover from this.

 

 

Okay, imagine you are the OC.

• You have a QB with maybe the best deep throw in the NFL, and also a gunslinger mentality. He is in the prime of his career and your have won 2 super bowls with him, including a season in 2011 when he was the star of the entire team.
• You have a trio of physically gifted wide receivers that can generate alot of YAC.
• You have an offensive line that has been struggling alot with protection.
• You have alot of interceptions that appear to be the result of option-route miscommunications.

If I'm the OC, I identify the option-route miscommunications as the biggest problem, and adjust my scheme so that either the option routes are not as heavily emphasized, or only certain players run them.

 

In this case, maybe Gilbride needs to take the "option route keys" away from Randle and/or Eli.

 

The sad thing is, if Eli and Randle were on the same page, and Eli goes over Jennings, that's a 50 yard TD.

[CrazedDogs]

Thats a good breakdown of the play, thanks prez.

 

More I think about it, the more I think the Giants just need to take their offense back to scratch. That was one of their bread and butter route combinations, and Jennings was all over it.

[JMFP]

Thats a good breakdown of the play, thanks prez.

 

More I think about it, the more I think the Giants just need to take their offense back to scratch. That was one of their bread and butter route combinations, and Jennings was all over it.

 

Yeah....the ball is gone before Randle turns. Jennings (a very talented CB) is set to jump the route.

 

 

 

Randle is still deciding what to do.....his hand doesn't even go up to indicate he's going deep until the ball is halfway to Jennings.

 

 

 

 

I'm not blaming Randle on this, but blaming Eli and Randle for clearly not being on the same page here.

 

Frankly, I'd much prefer them eliminating alot of this option route stuff in favor of just working some basic curls.....Randle could instead have been playing Jennings angle, rather then deciding the proper option.

 

This is all 20/20 hindsight stuff on my part.

[Treehugger]

I must have watched that damn play a dozen times last night. Mayock putting that all on Randle was just ridiculous, though it seems like he has a hard on for the guy, especially after asking the chief of officiating if they could change the rule so Randle had a fumble. What a jerk.

[Treehugger]

 

 

The ball is gone before Randle turns. Jennings (a very talented CB) is set to jump the route. Randle is still deciding what to do.

 

I'm not blaming Randle on this, but blaming Eli and Randle for clearly not being on the same page here.

 

 

It would have been a pick even if Randle hadn't read it an made the curl. Jennings knew exactly what was coming and doesn't even look at Randle.

[JMFP]

 

It would have been a pick even if Randle hadn't read it an made the curl. Jennings knew exactly what was coming and doesn't even look at Randle.

 

Disagree. At the time Eli commits to the throw, the angle still favors Randle.

 

I do agree that Jennings understood what Gilbride was running better than Eli or Randle.

[JMFP]

I must have watched that damn play a dozen times last night. Mayock putting that all on Randle was just ridiculous, though it seems like he has a hard on for the guy, especially after asking the chief of officiating if they could change the rule so Randle had a fumble. What a jerk.

 

Randle is clearly part of the miscommunication, unless the play was designed for the ball to leave Eli's hands alot later than it actually did.

 

[NightFire]

 

It would have been a pick even if Randle hadn't read it an made the curl. Jennings knew exactly what was coming and doesn't even look at Randle.

 

And why should he? Eli stared him down and never attempted to do anything else. The pocket is looking nice there also so he had time. Really too bad Eli didn't wait half a second longer because that would have been a sweet TD. The Giants season in a play right there.

[JMFP]

 

And why should he? Eli stared him down and never attempted to do anything else. The pocket is looking nice there also so he had time. Really too bad Eli didn't wait half a second longer because that would have been a sweet TD. The Giants season in a play right there.

 

The fact that Randle is putting up his hand to say "I'm breaking off my intended route" signals he was supposed to be coming back to the ball.

 

It's entirely possible that Randle was not expecting the throw to come out that early, in which case it's entirely on Eli. I really don't know.

 

However, the fact that the ball is out before Randle signals his intention to go deep tells me that these guys really need to spend some time in the film room together.

[Herc]

I must have watched that damn play a dozen times last night. Mayock putting that all on Randle was just ridiculous, though it seems like he has a hard on for the guy, especially after asking the chief of officiating if they could change the rule so Randle had a fumble. What a jerk.

 

let's not forget all those times he kept saying we were holding on offense

[Clarence the Blue Puppet]

I must have watched that damn play a dozen times last night. Mayock putting that all on Randle was just ridiculous, though it seems like he has a hard on for the guy, especially after asking the chief of officiating if they could change the rule so Randle had a fumble. What a jerk.

Mayock was annoying me the entire broadcast. He obviously thinks his opinion is the only one that matters, and strikes me as kind of a bully.

[MikeGL]

Is that the guy with the extremely annoying lisp?

[fringe]

Isn't it odd that the Triumverant from 2004. Eli, Big Ben, and Rivers are all either breaking down or at least slumping badly?

[Herc]

Mayock was annoying me the entire broadcast. He obviously thinks his opinion is the only one that matters, and strikes me as kind of a bully.

 

he is annoying every broadcast. what kind of professional ends his point by saying "man"?

[Treehugger]

 

Randle is clearly part of the miscommunication, unless the play was designed for the ball to leave Eli's hands alot later than it actually did.

 

 

I'm not convinced Eli is even running the same play as Randle, let alone route. Eli throws it like a quick timing pass, not an option route.