Concerns over Jones recovery.

[BlueInCanada]

https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/big-blue-plus/giants-have-real-concerns-about-jones-durability

Jones has the dreaded injury guarantee clause.

If he gets hurt this season and ends up on IR or out for more than 8(?) games I read, he has a fully guaranteed 45 million cap in 2025 regardless if the Giants cut him or not. 

There have also been concerns over how long it will take him to recover.

Via Lombo in his more recent podcast. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cousins-to-the-falcons-russ-to-the-steelers-saquon/id1458884463?i=1000648930860/

If he rides the year out on IR the 45 million is still guaranteed. 

 

[mastershake]

Jayden Daniels or Michael Penix here we come.

[Sephiroth]

Dan Duggan explains it here. 

In a nutshell, Joe Schoen guaranteed Jones 23 million in 2025 should he be injured and unable to pass a physical.  This is a guy that had a potentially career-ending neck injury, had one of four seasons where he didn't miss time with a significant injury, and is playing behind one of the worst lines the league has ever seen.  This was a HORRIBLE contract move. 

I'm not quite there yet, but Joe Schoen is really losing me.  Not sure he's the guy. 

[gmenroc]

Yeah...if he misses 6 games...even if he recovers...you gotta make him your #2.  Kinda a dick move to screw him out of millions at that point, but if he ain't part of the future, which he absolutely wouldn't be at that point...you gotta look out for team first.

But he can play that game too...faking an injury in practice.

[jranieli]

5 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

Yeah...if he misses 6 games...even if he recovers...you gotta make him your #2.  Kinda a dick move to screw him out of millions at that point, but if he ain't part of the future, which he absolutely wouldn't be at that point...you gotta look out for team first.

But he can play that game too...faking an injury in practice.

He probably has Ben Simmons on speed dial. 

[mastershake]

40 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

Dan Duggan explains it here. 

In a nutshell, Joe Schoen guaranteed Jones 23 million in 2025 should he be injured and unable to pass a physical.  This is a guy that had a potentially career-ending neck injury, had one of four seasons where he didn't miss time with a significant injury, and is playing behind one of the worst lines the league has ever seen.  This was a HORRIBLE contract move. 

I'm not quite there yet, but Joe Schoen is really losing me.  Not sure he's the guy. 

Schoen has a bit of a pickle...if he doesn't draft a QB, and if the season is another 10 loss season, he's clearly on the hot seat.

But if he takes a QB, even in the 2nd with a guy like Penix, he extends his career with the Giants at least another two years.

[gmenroc]

I think both he and Dabs are gonna get a pass until Jones is gone.  The contract Jones got was a mistake.  Drafting him where we did was a mistake.  But both times, Giants got screwed by circumstance and timing.  Jones showing just enough to make you think he is taking a step, playoff win, less than stellar options for another QB...and so on.

[mastershake]

33 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

I think both he and Dabs are gonna get a pass until Jones is gone.  The contract Jones got was a mistake.  Drafting him where we did was a mistake.  But both times, Giants got screwed by circumstance and timing.  Jones showing just enough to make you think he is taking a step, playoff win, less than stellar options for another QB...and so on.

Why would they get a pass on him though? Didn't they choose to sign him to the big deal?

They also chose to go into the 2023 season with big holes at G and question marks at RT.

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, mastershake said:

Schoen has a bit of a pickle...if he doesn't draft a QB, and if the season is another 10 loss season, he's clearly on the hot seat.

But if he takes a QB, even in the 2nd with a guy like Penix, he extends his career with the Giants at least another two years.

Yeah if they choose to go into the season with Jones as QB1 and it's another mediocre year or he gets hurt putting the Giants in more financial hell I can see Mara dropping the axe.

But I agree if they take a QB even if he's just the backup for the year they give themselves some leeway. 

[Sephiroth]

We've got two years of Schoen and he's arguably made more bad moves than good. 

All of his linemen have been very bad (except extending Thomas). Glowinski, Evans, JMS, Isuzu, McKethan... all bad so far, and this was the ONE THING we needed fixed.  Horrible talent evaluation on his part. We have to hope some of them turn it around and you all know what I think about hope. 

His mid-level FA signings last year have likewise been very bad (Parris Campbell, Jameson Crowder, Nunez-Roches, etc).  His trades have not been good (Darren Waller, Brian Burns remains to be seen... I'd argue he overpaid).  Some mid-season things have gone well (Fabian Moreau, Nick McCloud, Isiah Hodgins) and he's also pulled off some good things (Leonard Williams trade). 

At this point though, can we convincingly say the roster is better than it was at the start of 2021?  I cannot say that;  in fact, I think that roster was probably slightly better. 

That is a REALLY bad sign. 

Schoen is obviously going to get this year and probably another, but this is far from a great start. 

[GorillaNJ]

11 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Yeah if they choose to go into the season with Jones as QB1 and it's another mediocre year or he gets hurt putting the Giants in more financial hell I can see Mara dropping the axe.

But I agree if they take a QB even if he's just the backup for the year they give themselves some leeway. 

Or jones comes in and throws for over 3000 yards and 15 TDs and Giants make a playoff run

[mastershake]

5 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

We've got two years of Schoen and he's arguably made more bad moves than good. 

All of his linemen have been very bad (except extending Thomas). Glowinski, Evans, JMS, Isuzu, McKethan... all bad so far, and this was the ONE THING we needed fixed.  Horrible talent evaluation on his part. We have to hope some of them turn it around and you all know what I think about hope. 

His mid-level FA signings last year have likewise been very bad (Parris Campbell, Jameson Crowder, Nunez-Roches, etc).  His trades have not been good (Darren Waller, Brian Burns remains to be seen... I'd argue he overpaid).  Some mid-season things have gone well (Fabian Moreau, Nick McCloud, Isiah Hodgins) and he's also pulled off some good things (Leonard Williams trade). 

At this point though, can we convincingly say the roster is better than it was at the start of 2021?  I cannot say that;  in fact, I think that roster was probably better. 

That is a REALLY bad sign. 

Schoen is obviously going to get this year and probably another, but this is far from a great start. 

When you look closely, it's more mixed. For instance, Bobby Okerke was a great signing. Resigning Lawrence and AT to those contracts looks like a brilliant move now, considering the current cap and market expansion.

Overall I wouldn't call his record good but I wouldn't call it a disaster.

His main problem and potential downfall will be a) The QB situation, and b) failing to fix the OL.

[Sephiroth]

2 minutes ago, mastershake said:

When you look closely, it's more mixed. For instance, Bobby Okerke was a great signing. Resigning Lawrence and AT to those contracts looks like a brilliant move now, considering the current cap and market expansion.

Overall I wouldn't call his record good but I wouldn't call it a disaster.

His main problem and potential downfall will be a) The QB situation, and b) failing to fix the OL.

I think this is a fair assessment.  Okereke was a good add for sure.  The other guys though, while it's good we resigned them... weren't Schoen's guys.  He's yet to add a real impact player through his drafts. 

Again, small sample size, but that's bad. 

 

[gmenroc]

1 hour ago, mastershake said:

Why would they get a pass on him though? Didn't they choose to sign him to the big deal?

They also chose to go into the 2023 season with big holes at G and question marks at RT.

Because given the moment a decision needed to be made, with the info and options they had at the time, you could argue it wasn't the worst decision they could've made.

Offensive line...if Neal lived up to his billing, we would be in a different situation.  And Schoen was far from the only one looking to draft him.  

[mastershake]

12 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

Because given the moment a decision needed to be made, with the info and options they had at the time, you could argue it wasn't the worst decision they could've made.

Offensive line...if Neal lived up to his billing, we would be in a different situation.  And Schoen was far from the only one looking to draft him.  

Here's my criteria for firing Schoen this offseason, IF he does not draft a QB.

1) 10 loss or more season

2) OL still sucks (is bottom 10 or 5 or whatever)

3) QB play sucks and/or DJ is injured and misses time or has to play injured again.

[BlueInCanada]

I can't wait for Mara to kick another trash can or two and fire the GM but not the HC which always works out in the NFL.

Then to repeat the process in four years.

And four years after that. 

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, BlueInCanada said:

I can't wait for Mara to kick another trash can or two and fire the GM but not the HC which always works out in the NFL.

Then to repeat the process in four years.

And four years after that. 

Oh I would fire the HC too in the above scenario. 

If after 3 years you have the same problems you had at the start of your tenure, and you post back to back 10+ loss seasons, you deserve to be fired. 

THEY will have doubled down on this QB, and be responsible if the OL still sucks.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

I want head coaches and GM's to come in and adjust their ways.  Before it was everything Patriots... now it is everything Bills.  Both of those organizations have their ups and downs... and just because they caught lightning in a bottle there... does not mean they will catch lightning in a bottle here.  Most coaches and GM's want their guys and DJ is neither.  They will probably be here at least until after the 2025 season.

[mastershake]

11 minutes ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

I want head coaches and GM's to come in and adjust their ways.  Before it was everything Patriots... now it is everything Bills.  Both of those organizations have their ups and downs... and just because they caught lightning in a bottle there... does not mean they will catch lightning in a bottle here.  Most coaches and GM's want their guys and DJ is neither.  They will probably be here at least until after the 2025 season.

Schoen and Co just need reset and start a new era, i.e. take a shot at a QB all together, or else they're going to be part of the overhaul and reset themselves, and find themselves out the door. A reset, getting a new QB, buys them at least two more years. Jayden Daniels if available or if somehow you can trade up for him. If not, you gotta trade up with your 2nd (and then some) to go after Penix or Nix.

[Mr. P]

44 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

I can't wait for Mara to kick another trash can or two and fire the GM but not the HC which always works out in the NFL.

Then to repeat the process in four years.

And four years after that. 

 

Mara fired Coughlin when it should have been Reese. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

2 hours ago, mastershake said:

Schoen and Co just need reset and start a new era, i.e. take a shot at a QB all together, or else they're going to be part of the overhaul and reset themselves, and find themselves out the door. A reset, getting a new QB, buys them at least two more years. Jayden Daniels if available or if somehow you can trade up for him. If not, you gotta trade up with your 2nd (and then some) to go after Penix or Nix.

I totally agree.  As the head of things the past 18 years since 2006 I always made sure that I had at least one if not two people fully on my side.  In situations where I did not have this I tried very hard to get this.  You always need one or two of "your guys" anywhere.  DJ is clearly Gettlefucks guy and is not Schoen's or Daboll's guy.  DJ has never been my guy.  Pay him, play him possibly this year and move on from him.  If that means taking a hit... take it... make sure he is the last of the changelings on your watch is all.  The total revamping is in place... even Barkley has been allowed to move on.

[Herc]

Either they don’t expect jones to be healthy, or we aren’t drafting a qb 

[BlueInCanada]

Lock is the starting QB week 1, they are not going to risk paying Jones 45 million unless 

1) the oline has turned 2007 era Oline and have only allowed a handful of sacks and know Jones can be protected. 

2) we are down to QB #4 because they rest are all injured and they are forced to play him. 

Imagine paying a guy on IR 35+ million the year after! lol 

[Sephiroth]

30 minutes ago, Herc said:

Either they don’t expect jones to be healthy, or we aren’t drafting a qb 

And their plan was DREW FUCKING LOCK? This can't actually be the plan...

[jranieli]

So, what week is Jones expected back? Yeah, Lock/DeVito are going to be fighting for QB1 week 1. I guess if Jones is out.