Not for nothing, but what the fuck is up with Jerry Reese?

[Allstarjim]

1. If the draft is a crap shoot the team can save alot of money by putting one of us bozos in charge.
    
   
2. One of the reasons why the team is always in a cap bind is that Reese throws heavy money at non-superstars (e.g., Canty, Baas).
    
   
3. I don't unconditionally accept the coaches and players....I can expand if needed, but that's going into stuff discussed in other active threads.
    
   
4. You mentioned players didn't step up, players were injured, players that didn't work out.....well, that's Reese's job. It's his responsiblity to find players that will step up, and will work out. Unfortunately, we've had a number of highly-ranked players that have not, and that's on the GM. I also think we've had players like Wilson that have been misused and/or neglected, and I think that's the fault of the coaches.
    
   
5. Tynes had a large role to play in at least two losses this season, both of them pivotal NFC East games - Philly and DC. And he hit his slump right when the rest of the team was in dire need of someone to step up. I'd have alot more patience for Tynes if he could make something beyond 49 yards....if you can't kick a long FG, then you had better be reliable inside 40. The Giants can do alot better than Tynes without breaking the bank.
   

 

On #1... I do believe character and intelligence are important aspects that we never get the full info available that they get. That's why I hesitate to criticize our GM and front office too much about draft picks. I certainly have my share of gripes.

 

But this guy has only 6 drafts under his belt. Like any GM, he's had his share of bad luck. His rookie draft was impressive.

 

Aaron Ross

Steve Smith

Jay Alford

Zak DeOssie

Kevin Boss

Adam Koets

Michael Johnson

Ahmad Bradshaw

 

Sure, the injuries by Ross did hamper his development. And Steve Smith might still be a great Giant if not for the knee injury. Same for Alford, a promising career cut short. But DeOssie is still a useful player, and Boss was a very good Giant for a number of seasons before the concussions took their toll. Michael Johnson had talent and did contribute, and Bradshaw was an absolute steal in the 7th.

 

The back half of the '08 draft wasn't spectacular. But Kenny Phillips... one of those guys that was a great pick and the Giants have had both good performance and bad luck with him. I still think he never was able to become the player that he could've been. I think his Giants career may be over after this season, but that isn't a bust pick. Same for Terrell Thomas in the 2nd, just bad luck, but we did get some good play out of him before the catastrophic knee injury. Manningham in the 3rd obviously paid dividends. Not a steal in the 3rd, but certainly a good player, and if you get good players in the 3rd round you are doing a good job. Goff I really thought was turning the corner before he injured his knee badly in the beginning of last season.

 

The '09 draft is a mixed back, but you can give Reese some criticism here. Obviously, Nicks was a tremendous pick in the first. Still could end up being the best Giants WR in our history, he just has to figure out how to try and manage his game so he can be more durable. He may never get there, and this year was a throwaway season, but you can't criticize Reese for that pick. The 5 guys picked after Nicks were Kenny Britt, Beanie Wells, Evander Hood, Louis Delmas, and Patrick Chung. He made the right choice.

 

But after that even with the injuries, I think Sintim was a bust. A terrible pick in the 2nd, who wasn't ever going to be a good LB in the NFL. It was a square peg in a round hole pick. Will Beatty was a nice pick also in the second, though. But then the rest of the draft was Ramses Barden (who is never going to pan out at this point), Beckum (a strange choice, the Giants still aren't sure what to do with him because the Giants need blocking TEs), Rhett Bomar, Deandre Wright, and Stoney Woodson. The last 3 picks were just wastes. I don't think there are many teams that have found useful corners in the 6th and 7th rounds of drafts. And Rhett Bomar? But if you look back at that draft, the 5th round picks after Bomar is just devoid of talent.

 

But in between those picks was Andre Brown. And he's meandered his way around the league, but this year, while still displaying he's injury prone, also proved himself as a guy that can really play.

 

In the '09 draft, you can't argue with JPP and Linval Joseph, both great picks. In the 3rd, you can't fault him for what happened with Chad Jones. Phillip Dillard in the 4th was a waste, and he looked too slow on tape that year, too. In the 5th, if you tell me you can get one of the strongest guys in the draft in Petrus who is motivated, even though he never panned out I don't fault Reese for the pick. Then you have Adrian Tracy, who still shows some ability and whose story may not be completely written yet, and Matt Dodge... you never draft a punter. Just don't do it. Why not a PK in the 7th? But a punter?

 

Back to the Dillard pick... a few picks later? Geno Atkins, now a Pro Bowl DT for the Bengals, and he really is a good one.

 

In 2011, I think it's too early to rate, and I won't even go into the 2012 draft, because it's stupid to rate that draft now.

 

But I did like the Amukamara pick. I think he is going to be a good player for us for a long time. I'm getting a bit discouraged about Austin but haven't given up on him. Jerrel Jernigan... a complete waste of a pick, IMO. And I never liked the pick. To me, he's not an NFL caliber player. At receiver, I want to see an NFL body, not a might mouse. The rest of the draft is a mix of don't know yet and who knows, we may have a future starting guard in James Brewer even though he should've become a RT, which I don't think he'll ever be. But there's also Jacquian Williams in there. Tyler Sash and Da'Rel Scott, more wait and see. Greg Jones is gone, and probably was a bit of a waste of a pick, but it was a 6th rounder, so you really can't argue with it.

 

All in all, I think Reese has done a very good job. You can try to nitpick all you want with saying he should draft this position or that position. But that really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You have to get the best players you can get and fill holes if you have them. That's how we got JPP, how we got Amukamara, too. You take BPA. IF you try to draft for position, you are going to get a lot more busts. This is especially true outside of the first round, where SOMETIMES you can get a player who is BPA but also fills a need.

 

Where he deserves criticism, is the few choices he's made that really, didn't make much sense at all. Bomar, Dodge, and Jernigan come to mind, although some might argue that Jernigan wasn't a bad pick. Also, salary cap management. I don't think the Rolle and Canty contracts were completely unjustified. Sometimes you have to pay more to get your guy. And let me tell you, we don't win the Super Bowl last season without either of those guys, and I really believe that. Canty was a monster last year in the postseason, and Rolle is consistently one of the best tacklers and run support safeties in the NFL, and when he plays his actual position, he's very good in pass defense.

 

I think where Reese has failed is addressing the O-line, particularly when K-Mac was declining. He hasn't been able to get a successor for him or Chris Snee, who appears to be in decline. Diehl was already showing that there wasn't much tread on the tires, and Reese gambled that he could take RT. Sure, he brought in Locklear and that was a great signing. But you have to fix this line for the long term at some point, because Eli needs a top tier offensive line.

 

And if I'm Reese, I go right to Eli and ask him how bad he wants that top tier Offensive line, because Eli takes up a rather huge chunk of that cap, and I'm going to him and asking if he really wants a top flight OT, which the free agent crop is very rich in 2013 at the position, then how does he expect him to pay for it.

 

The TE position is going to have to be re-worked in the offseason. Pascoe and Bennett are both free agents. There are guys out there that are cheap and can play. How about Dallas Clark? He's a veteran who can help Adrien Robinson along, and by his play in Tampa, he has shown he still has some in the tank.

 

I disagree vehemently on David Baas, with posters who say he was a bust. Baas is a good C, a very good C, and will be here for a long time. But clearly, the team seems to have a lot invested in a handful of players, and they need help at several positions and that is going to cost some real money. RT is a big issue. They need to get Will Beatty under contract, and now, CB is a concern if Webster doesn't re-discover his game.

[Allstarjim]

#3-#5, Joe, agree whole-heartedly. But I'm not on a Reese witch hunt at all. I just feel he could've done a better job bringing some talent for that offensive line. I think that's been a major problem.

[Bigblue25]

 

 

On #1... I do believe character and intelligence are important aspects that we never get the full info available that they get. That's why I hesitate to criticize our GM and front office too much about draft picks. I certainly have my share of gripes.

 

But this guy has only 6 drafts under his belt. Like any GM, he's had his share of bad luck. His rookie draft was impressive.

 

Aaron Ross

Steve Smith

Jay Alford

Zak DeOssie

Kevin Boss

Adam Koets

Michael Johnson

Ahmad Bradshaw

 

Sure, the injuries by Ross did hamper his development. And Steve Smith might still be a great Giant if not for the knee injury. Same for Alford, a promising career cut short. But DeOssie is still a useful player, and Boss was a very good Giant for a number of seasons before the concussions took their toll. Michael Johnson had talent and did contribute, and Bradshaw was an absolute steal in the 7th.

 

The back half of the '08 draft wasn't spectacular. But Kenny Phillips... one of those guys that was a great pick and the Giants have had both good performance and bad luck with him. I still think he never was able to become the player that he could've been. I think his Giants career may be over after this season, but that isn't a bust pick. Same for Terrell Thomas in the 2nd, just bad luck, but we did get some good play out of him before the catastrophic knee injury. Manningham in the 3rd obviously paid dividends. Not a steal in the 3rd, but certainly a good player, and if you get good players in the 3rd round you are doing a good job. Goff I really thought was turning the corner before he injured his knee badly in the beginning of last season.

 

The '09 draft is a mixed back, but you can give Reese some criticism here. Obviously, Nicks was a tremendous pick in the first. Still could end up being the best Giants WR in our history, he just has to figure out how to try and manage his game so he can be more durable. He may never get there, and this year was a throwaway season, but you can't criticize Reese for that pick. The 5 guys picked after Nicks were Kenny Britt, Beanie Wells, Evander Hood, Louis Delmas, and Patrick Chung. He made the right choice.

 

But after that even with the injuries, I think Sintim was a bust. A terrible pick in the 2nd, who wasn't ever going to be a good LB in the NFL. It was a square peg in a round hole pick. Will Beatty was a nice pick also in the second, though. But then the rest of the draft was Ramses Barden (who is never going to pan out at this point), Beckum (a strange choice, the Giants still aren't sure what to do with him because the Giants need blocking TEs), Rhett Bomar, Deandre Wright, and Stoney Woodson. The last 3 picks were just wastes. I don't think there are many teams that have found useful corners in the 6th and 7th rounds of drafts. And Rhett Bomar? But if you look back at that draft, the 5th round picks after Bomar is just devoid of talent.

 

But in between those picks was Andre Brown. And he's meandered his way around the league, but this year, while still displaying he's injury prone, also proved himself as a guy that can really play.

 

In the '09 draft, you can't argue with JPP and Linval Joseph, both great picks. In the 3rd, you can't fault him for what happened with Chad Jones. Phillip Dillard in the 4th was a waste, and he looked too slow on tape that year, too. In the 5th, if you tell me you can get one of the strongest guys in the draft in Petrus who is motivated, even though he never panned out I don't fault Reese for the pick. Then you have Adrian Tracy, who still shows some ability and whose story may not be completely written yet, and Matt Dodge... you never draft a punter. Just don't do it. Why not a PK in the 7th? But a punter?

 

Back to the Dillard pick... a few picks later? Geno Atkins, now a Pro Bowl DT for the Bengals, and he really is a good one.

 

In 2011, I think it's too early to rate, and I won't even go into the 2012 draft, because it's stupid to rate that draft now.

 

But I did like the Amukamara pick. I think he is going to be a good player for us for a long time. I'm getting a bit discouraged about Austin but haven't given up on him. Jerrel Jernigan... a complete waste of a pick, IMO. And I never liked the pick. To me, he's not an NFL caliber player. At receiver, I want to see an NFL body, not a might mouse. The rest of the draft is a mix of don't know yet and who knows, we may have a future starting guard in James Brewer even though he should've become a RT, which I don't think he'll ever be. But there's also Jacquian Williams in there. Tyler Sash and Da'Rel Scott, more wait and see. Greg Jones is gone, and probably was a bit of a waste of a pick, but it was a 6th rounder, so you really can't argue with it.

 

All in all, I think Reese has done a very good job. You can try to nitpick all you want with saying he should draft this position or that position. But that really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You have to get the best players you can get and fill holes if you have them. That's how we got JPP, how we got Amukamara, too. You take BPA. IF you try to draft for position, you are going to get a lot more busts. This is especially true outside of the first round, where SOMETIMES you can get a player who is BPA but also fills a need.

 

Where he deserves criticism, is the few choices he's made that really, didn't make much sense at all. Bomar, Dodge, and Jernigan come to mind, although some might argue that Jernigan wasn't a bad pick. Also, salary cap management. I don't think the Rolle and Canty contracts were completely unjustified. Sometimes you have to pay more to get your guy. And let me tell you, we don't win the Super Bowl last season without either of those guys, and I really believe that. Canty was a monster last year in the postseason, and Rolle is consistently one of the best tacklers and run support safeties in the NFL, and when he plays his actual position, he's very good in pass defense.

 

I think where Reese has failed is addressing the O-line, particularly when K-Mac was declining. He hasn't been able to get a successor for him or Chris Snee, who appears to be in decline. Diehl was already showing that there wasn't much tread on the tires, and Reese gambled that he could take RT. Sure, he brought in Locklear and that was a great signing. But you have to fix this line for the long term at some point, because Eli needs a top tier offensive line.

 

And if I'm Reese, I go right to Eli and ask him how bad he wants that top tier Offensive line, because Eli takes up a rather huge chunk of that cap, and I'm going to him and asking if he really wants a top flight OT, which the free agent crop is very rich in 2013 at the position, then how does he expect him to pay for it.

 

The TE position is going to have to be re-worked in the offseason. Pascoe and Bennett are both free agents. There are guys out there that are cheap and can play. How about Dallas Clark? He's a veteran who can help Adrien Robinson along, and by his play in Tampa, he has shown he still has some in the tank.

 

I disagree vehemently on David Baas, with posters who say he was a bust. Baas is a good C, a very good C, and will be here for a long time. But clearly, the team seems to have a lot invested in a handful of players, and they need help at several positions and that is going to cost some real money. RT is a big issue. They need to get Will Beatty under contract, and now, CB is a concern if Webster doesn't re-discover his game.

 

Would love Sebastian Vollmer, then draft a guy like Oday Aboushi from UVA.

[fishgutmartyr]

In Reese's defense, Jim, we've had some pretty bad luck with Oline picks, too. Before the knee injury, Koets was turning into a pretty good center. Granted, he came into the league as a tackle, but had he and Seubert stayed in one piece, we wouldn't have had to pony up as much as we did for Baas.

 

I was pretty sure Petrus would have been a starter this year, and obviously, I was mistaken. Don't know what happened to that guy. It looked like we had a keeper there for a season or two.

 

Guy Whimper--still in the league. Sure, on a shitty team, but still an NFL OT. So maybe not as good as we needed, but still not a horrendous pick at the round we got him. OK...a 2006 pick.

 

I don't know if anyone could say he's been ignoring the oline--it's just that we've been missing a lot. Kind of the offense's answer to LB picks.

[Allstarjim]

Yep, agreed Fish. And moreover, the philosophy of the Giants seems to focus more on other positions than OL and LB in the draft, particularly in the 1st round. I know, it's BPA, and I've preached that. But all things being equal, they are going for defensive backs and DL on defense early, and when they do go early on offense, it's been for a skill position player. Can't argue with the results. You want those young legs on the backs and receivers. Just think though, we've drafted one of the best WR's and DE's in the history of this franchise in just the last few years, with the best QB we've ever had. I think Reese deserves credit, not blame. Fact is, we can complain and all about the way the season has panned out, but this franchise still hasn't had a losing season in a long time.

[osi724dasack]

Reese has been great.

 

I agree with a lot of Jim's post. But I wouldn't give up on Jernigan so quick.

 

He's got really nice talent, he's just very raw. He might pan out. It's looking bad as of now, but he might be good.

[Bigblue25]

CB Corey Webster will not be back on the Giants in 2013 unless he takes a "very" significant pay cut according to NY Dailynews #nyg #giants

 

[Storm]

So long Webster, I'll always remember him for effectively ending Brett Favre's career and being a pretty stalwart corner until he suddenly sucked and literally became the worst corner in the league overnight.

[Nas]

So long Webster, I'll always remember him for effectively ending Brett Favre's career and being a pretty stalwart corner until he suddenly sucked and literally became the worst corner in the league overnight.

 

I'm not sure what happened... yet part of me thinks this season is just an aberration for Webster. I think he should take a pay cut only to help the team attract/keep talent.. same goes with Rolle & Canty.. and even Eli.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

So long Webster, I'll always remember him for effectively ending Brett Favre's career and being a pretty stalwart corner until he suddenly sucked and literally became the worst corner in the league overnight.

 

Yeah he went from being an inept rookie to being a shut down top tier corner. I don't know wtf happened to him this year. Maybe injuries, a fat bank account and being satisfied with two rings.

[Nas]

Yeah he went from being an inept rookie to being a shut down top tier corner. I don't know wtf happened to him this year. Maybe injuries, a fat bank account and being satisfied with two rings.

 

I don't buy the "being satisfied with 2 rings" so much as he slacked off in the off-season... he doesn't have a body of an athlete who's been staying in shape and it showed... contrast that to Prince and Hosely.

[Allstarjim]

Yeah he went from being an inept rookie to being a shut down top tier corner. I don't know wtf happened to him this year. Maybe injuries, a fat bank account and being satisfied with two rings.

 

I think this is the major problem with this team this year. And Nas, maybe they wouldn't say that in those terms. But the point is, they lost their edge, their hunger to win. I believe it takes great sacrifice and ultimate commitment to win in the NFL. Too many of our players... maybe they still want to win... but they aren't willing to REALLY commit and make all the sacrifices necessary to do it... they got their ring(s). Simply put, they lost their edge. Kind of like when some people get married they put on some weight. You don't have to look good for the club on Saturday night no more... because you ain't gonna go!

[Sephiroth]

 

 

I'm not sure what happened... yet part of me thinks this season is just an aberration for Webster. I think he should take a pay cut only to help the team attract/keep talent.. same goes with Rolle & Canty.. and even Eli.

 

He's been playing on a bad hamstring and with a broken hand all year, and... once again... is a press corner who is inexplicably being asked to play zone. It's Tim Lewis and Bill Sheridan all over again.

[Storm]

^Not for nothing but Corey Webster was in man all day against Torrey Smith....

 

I think it's just more proof he's done in the NFL.

[Bigblue25]

^Not for nothing but Corey Webster was in man all day against Torrey Smith....

 

I think it's just more proof he's done in the NFL.

 

He pressed Roddy White too, who was held to 2 catches. The big play has been killing us, teams are getting out to early leads, and then our O goes into panic mode. Our time of posession has been 20 and 21 minutes the past two weeks.

[Herc]

roddy was hurt and a gametime decision. not sure if that's a factor but it's something to consider i guess

[Steitzenhaus]

 

 

I think this is the major problem with this team this year. And Nas, maybe they wouldn't say that in those terms. But the point is, they lost their edge, their hunger to win. I believe it takes great sacrifice and ultimate commitment to win in the NFL. Too many of our players... maybe they still want to win... but they aren't willing to REALLY commit and make all the sacrifices necessary to do it... they got their ring(s). Simply put, they lost their edge. Kind of like when some people get married they put on some weight. You don't have to look good for the club on Saturday night no more... because you ain't gonna go!

Agreed. It's even harder when you're trying to repeat. Being the defending champs, every game is a litmus test for the other team.

[Nas]

Agreed. It's even harder when you're trying to repeat. Being the defending champs, every game is a litmus test for the other team.

 

Hey I don't mind teams giving us their best shot.. it's our team laying down like dogs.

[Sephiroth]

So what're the chances Reese starts listening to one of us?

[Treehugger]

He's been playing on a bad hamstring and with a broken hand all year, and... once again... is a press corner who is inexplicably being asked to play zone. It's Tim Lewis and Bill Sheridan all over again.

 

This. Also, wildly unrealistic expectations from fans as to what a CB should be achieving. Its the hardest position on the field and getting harder every year.

[BleedinBlue]

Big Blue Interactive site is claiming that the Giants are talking with Boley and might resign him. He was in a 5 year, 25 million dollar contract that was backloaded and hence the reason players get cut before their contracts are up. He's tested the FA waters and apparently there no team is knocking his door down. We could end up getting him back for league minimum....wouldn't that be a hoot.