The tale of two quarterbacks.

[Nesta]

Eli Manning and John Elway.

 

I know some of you may chuckle at that thought, but hear me out first if you please.

 

These two guys have more in common than Kennedy and Lincoln. And I'm not even going to get into the draft and trade demands.

 

First the stats.

Elway's first four years.

               +---------------------------------------+-----------------+
                 |              Passing                  |     Rushing     |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year  TM |   G |  Comp   Att   PCT    YD   Y/A  TD INT |  Att  Yards  TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den |  11 |   123   259  47.5  1663   6.4   7  14 |    28   146   1 |
| 1984 den |  15 |   214   380  56.3  2598   6.8  18  15 |    56   237   1 |
| 1985 den |  16 |   327   605  54.0  3891   6.4  22  23 |    51   253   0 |
| 1986 den |  16 |   280   504  55.6  3485   6.9  19  13 |    52   257   1 |

 

Manning's first four years.

        +---------------------------------------+-----------------+
                 |              Passing                  |     Rushing     |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year  TM |   G |  Comp   Att   PCT    YD   Y/A  TD INT |  Att  Yards  TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 2004 nyg |   9 |    95   197  48.2  1043   5.3   6   9 |     6    35   0 |
| 2005 nyg |  16 |   294   557  52.8  3762   6.8  24  17 |    29    80   1 |
| 2006 nyg |  16 |   301   522  57.7  3244   6.2  24  18 |    25    21   0 |
| 2007 nyg |   9 |   168   283  59.4  1820   6.4  14  11 |    15    41   1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

 

Note the similarities in yds, cmp%, yds per att, and ints. About the only difference between the two is Elway's rushing abilities, and the fact Manning has thrown more TD's and fewer INT's.

 

Now everyone knows that Elway was hot in the 4th qtr and in the red zone, but few realize that Manning has that same trait. Though we're all disappointed with Manning's overall qb rating and completion percentage (just as Denver fans were by Elway's) we should be more impressed with his 4th quarter play and his abilities when in the short field.

Examples:

Manning's fourth qtr qb rating is incredibly higher than his overall, and has been since his 2nd year.

His 92.9 rating in the 4th shows that Eli gets better as the game progresses and that's a sign of a great qb.

Eli's 5 4th qtr TD's puts him in company with his brother, Hasselbeck, Romo, Brees, and Warner.

 

But Manning's play inside the opponents 20 tells the real tale.

In the area of the field where most qb's have a lower completion %, Eli's spikes.

Inside the 20 Manning is only inferior to Brady and Brees. His 64.1% is 3rd in the NFL.

Inside the 10 his 62.5% is equal to Palmer's and better than Peyton, Romo, Bulger, Favre, and Brady to name a few.

 

These were all early traits of one John Elway, as well as the low completion %, and the high INT's.

 

In 86, Elway's 3rd year, he lead what is known today as 'the drive', leading his team 98 yards in 5 mins to tie the Browns and eventually beat them in overtime.

In 06, Manning's 3rd year, he lead the team to overcome a 24-7 deficit in the 4th qtr, driving in the last 58 seconds for the game tying fg, and eventual overtime victory against the eagles.

 

You naysayers may bring up the fact that Elway made it to the superbowl his 4th year, and to that all I can say is defense. Elway had one. So far the closest thing to a defense Eli has had would be called 'swiss cheese'. This year isn't yet over and so far Manning has stood toe to toe with Elway as far as playoff contention.

 

I know today's game is faster paced, and players get dumped and replaced quicker than in Elway's day, but I would hate to throw away a future superbowl MVP and HOF qb, just because he had growing pains as Elway did.

Think about it. Elway is the only qb to start in the superbowl 5 times. And he won twice. What kind of laughing stock would the Broncos be today had they dumped/traded him after year 4?

 

Patience kids. Patience.

 

**Edited out the orange crush line. Technically the 80's Broncos defense were not the 'orange crush' but they were formidible and nasty just the same.

Edited November 13, 2007 by nesta

[Chuck Wagon]

What made you think to look at Elway as someone to compare Manning too? Very interesting BTW.

 

C. Wagon

[Clarence the Blue Puppet]

What made you think to look at Elway as someone to compare Manning too? Very interesting BTW.

 

C. Wagon

 

Makes sense to me. FOr years Elway was only known for his come from behind wins. It wasn't until he won 2 Super Bowls at the end of his career that people started calling him one of the greatest of all time.

[Sephiroth]

Oh Jesus Christ.

[BurnThePhilFans]

Eli could throw for 4,000 yards 28 touchdowns and 10 interceptions and people would still hate him

[Treehugger]

What made you think to look at Elway as someone to compare Manning too? Very interesting BTW.

 

C. Wagon

• First pick overall of the 1983 NFL Draft by the Baltimore Colts.

• His rights were traded by the Colts to the Denver Broncos on May 2, 1983, for QB Mark Herrmann, the rights to OL Chris Hinton, and a first-round pick in the 1984 NFL Draft.

 

Very similar story.

[ksm7]

This may be a bit of stretch just yet...The Dog would say that one needs to look beyond the numbers...Elway did more in terms of winning with less...Elway also made noticable gains in his approach and understanding of the game in his first few years, and it resulted in a Super Bowl trip in his fourth year (the Dog doesn't believe that any team would drop him after that season...)...

 

Manning has yet to show the leadership and resiliency that Elway had, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...Elway was also much more of a creator, and could make things happen when everything else around him was collapsing - Manning hasn't shown that as of yet...

 

 

[gateb]

The thing that Eli lacks was the thing that made Elway so exceptional. Escape ability and making great throws on the run. That 4 yard pass play to Shockey was great, but other then that it's hard to pick out times Eli's in the pocket, steps up, shifts to the right and makes a great throw awkwardly. In the first half Eli had an oppurtunity to do just that, he escaped pressure but overthrew Plax on the run.

 

That's what I'd really like to see out of him.

[jranieli]

We might have to face that Eli is a second tier QB. This is what, his third full season as a starter? I am still going to give him a break. He has shown some really bright spots and shown some bad spots. Last weeks time management was pretty bad but his throws seemed pretty accurate to me and had good touch on the ball. I still don't know how the three delay of game penalties were allowed. I wasn't too fond of the play calling either. There were times we were supposed to run and we didn't, vice versa. Seemed like our line collapsed, especially towards the end of the game. We had a chance to score more towards the end of the first half but terrible play calling led to what two sacks? That could have turned the game around. The Cowboys got some momentum after that stop and marched right down the field.

[NightFire]

The thing that Eli lacks was the thing that made Elway so exceptional. Escape ability and making great throws on the run. That 4 yard pass play to Shockey was great, but other then that it's hard to pick out times Eli's in the pocket, steps up, shifts to the right and makes a great throw awkwardly. In the first half Eli had an opportunity to do just that, he escaped pressure but overthrew Plax on the run.

 

That's what I'd really like to see out of him.

 

I was about to say that I notice the rushing yards difference.

[Nesta]

The thing that Eli lacks was the thing that made Elway so exceptional. Escape ability and making great throws on the run. That 4 yard pass play to Shockey was great, but other then that it's hard to pick out times Eli's in the pocket, steps up, shifts to the right and makes a great throw awkwardly. In the first half Eli had an oppurtunity to do just that, he escaped pressure but overthrew Plax on the run.

 

That's what I'd really like to see out of him.

 

Yes I mentioned that. Elway scrambled more and made plays happen. Eli throws more TD's and less picks (so far). However, Eli is getting better a moving in the pocket.

[Nesta]

Oh Jesus Christ.

 

And yes, there were Denver fans just like you before the end of his 4th year.

 

 

IF the gmen send five to the probowl this year, we will equal the 13 probowlers the Broncos had in Elway's first four years. And Dog you're absolutely right, who in their right mind would dump Elway after his 4th year?

And for that matter, who in their right mind would dump Manning after his 05 season (his 2nd).

[gateb]

Yes I mentioned that. Elway scrambled more and made plays happen. Eli throws more TD's and less picks (so far). However, Eli is getting better a moving in the pocket.

He is. And we'll see if he can turn a weakness of his game into an average part of his game.

 

To be great, you can't have a weakness. You have to make your weaknesses look average or better.

 

BTW, eli's gonna be in a similar spot as last year. Plax will not be a big factor unfortunately, that ankle is really hurting him. Three of his next four on the road, mostly against good defenses and/or hostile environments. Every game is going to be a pressure cooker.

 

We'll see if he rises up.

[rphguy]

Oh Jesus Christ.

are you comparing Eli or Elway to Him?

 

 

I Have 2 LSU fans from South Louisiana that refer to Eli as "Baby Jesus". LSU fans are Ole Miss haters.

[Nas]

What made you think to look at Elway as someone to compare Manning too? Very interesting BTW.

 

C. Wagon

 

Smoke one and you'll understand

 

But really Nesta, we don't have to compare Eli to anyone. He's our QB and he plays his heart out. I have no problem with players making mistakes but I sure have problems with players not showing up to play.

[Nas]

This may be a bit of stretch just yet...The Dog would say that one needs to look beyond the numbers...Elway did more in terms of winning with less...Elway also made noticable gains in his approach and understanding of the game in his first few years, and it resulted in a Super Bowl trip in his fourth year (the Dog doesn't believe that any team would drop him after that season...)...

 

Manning has yet to show the leadership and resiliency that Elway had, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...Elway was also much more of a creator, and could make things happen when everything else around him was collapsing - Manning hasn't shown that as of yet...

 

The prince will have to disagree with the dog here

 

Really, I think the so called "talent" around Eli is overrated. Plax sucks major balls. Shockey is not an elite TE but a very good one... and recently .. only this year we have a good offensive line thanks to the release of Mr False Start. Hell that's it.. who's catching the ball from Eli out there? Our WR corp are useless.

[Nas]

He is. And we'll see if he can turn a weakness of his game into an average part of his game.

 

To be great, you can't have a weakness. You have to make your weaknesses look average or better.

 

BTW, eli's gonna be in a similar spot as last year. Plax will not be a big factor unfortunately, that ankle is really hurting him. Three of his next four on the road, mostly against good defenses and/or hostile environments. Every game is going to be a pressure cooker.

 

We'll see if he rises up.

 

I'm not buying. Plax has been playing at the same level ever since we got him. Think about it, playing football, you're only there in certain plays, you play less than half the game (your defense plays the other half).... I can contend that it's actually easy playing football compared to Basketball or Soccer...

 

The guy doesn't even practice, which means he's getting plenty of rest... and how many plays does he run down the field?..

 

Sorry Gateb, I agree with almost everything you say here but I think you guys are giving plax too much slack... I'm still ticked off at that towel tackle against Dallas last year or the year before.. the guy has no character.

[Allstarjim]

I'm not buying. Plax has been playing at the same level ever since we got him. Think about it, playing football, you're only there in certain plays, you play less than half the game (your defense plays the other half).... I can contend that it's actually easy playing football compared to Basketball or Soccer...

 

The guy doesn't even practice, which means he's getting plenty of rest... and how many plays does he run down the field?..

 

Sorry Gateb, I agree with almost everything you say here but I think you guys are giving plax too much slack... I'm still ticked off at that towel tackle against Dallas last year or the year before.. the guy has no character.

 

 

Your logic is flawed. He has an injury. The injury is not healing properly and completely because HE'S PLAYING EVERY WEEK. That's not plenty of rest. If anything, you should admire him for playing at a high level even though he's hurt. And every play he's out there is going to cause strain on that ankle. One could argue that running plays are even worse for him because he has to block and use his legs and feet for leverage against the opposing DB. If we don't have Plax, we don't have one proven receiver on the team that can beat people deep and outjump the opponent. I'm pissed at some of his plays last year, too, but that doesn't mean I don't want him on my team. He's our best, most dangerous receiver and I'd hate to see our offense function without him. I would only take a couple of guys in the NFL at WR over him. We're lucky to have him.

[Nas]

I guess that depends on how severe or even how real the injury is. I think if you're able to run the Plax has been running, I say the injury is the equivalant of a light headache. Forgive me but I still play football and we don't wear all that protective gear.

 

I know you may have a point about the injury not healing completely. I'm having a hard time believing the severity of it.. that's all.

[Allstarjim]

I guess that depends on how severe or even how real the injury is. I think if you're able to run the Plax has been running, I say the injury is the equivalant of a light headache. Forgive me but I still play football and we don't wear all that protective gear.

 

I know you may have a point about the injury not healing completely. I'm having a hard time believing the severity of it.. that's all.

 

Noted Orthopedist Dr. Robert Anderson examined the ankle on Sep. 26th and described it as "a bad sprain". You're free to doubt the injury's severity, but I just want the guy to get healthy and help our offense win games.

[gateb]

I'm not buying. Plax has been playing at the same level ever since we got him. Think about it, playing football, you're only there in certain plays, you play less than half the game (your defense plays the other half).... I can contend that it's actually easy playing football compared to Basketball or Soccer...

 

The guy doesn't even practice, which means he's getting plenty of rest... and how many plays does he run down the field?..

 

Sorry Gateb, I agree with almost everything you say here but I think you guys are giving plax too much slack... I'm still ticked off at that towel tackle against Dallas last year or the year before.. the guy has no character.

The diagnosis is a severe sprained ankle for christ's sake. He's being shoved at the line, being pushed all around the field. He's making agressive blocks, and putting a ton of pressure on that ankle. How can you say that isn't a valid excuse for a drop off in performance?

 

I was at the game, I saw Plax running decently in the first half but really limping in the fourth quarter. It's not shocking about the news that it's feeling worse.

 

The guy may not have character, but he has a ton of heart. He's coming at the end of his contract and eventually will be at the point where he's going to get another extension. He's risking it all by playing through this injury. That's toughness.

[ksm7]

Eli Manning and John Elway.

 

I know some of you may chuckle at that thought, but hear me out first if you please.

 

These two guys have more in common than Kennedy and Lincoln. And I'm not even going to get into the draft and trade demands.

 

First the stats.

Elway's first four years.

               +---------------------------------------+-----------------+
                 |              Passing                  |     Rushing     |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year  TM |   G |  Comp   Att   PCT    YD   Y/A  TD INT |  Att  Yards  TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den |  11 |   123   259  47.5  1663   6.4   7  14 |    28   146   1 |
| 1984 den |  15 |   214   380  56.3  2598   6.8  18  15 |    56   237   1 |
| 1985 den |  16 |   327   605  54.0  3891   6.4  22  23 |    51   253   0 |
| 1986 den |  16 |   280   504  55.6  3485   6.9  19  13 |    52   257   1 |

 

Manning's first four years.

        +---------------------------------------+-----------------+
                 |              Passing                  |     Rushing     |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year  TM |   G |  Comp   Att   PCT    YD   Y/A  TD INT |  Att  Yards  TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 2004 nyg |   9 |    95   197  48.2  1043   5.3   6   9 |     6    35   0 |
| 2005 nyg |  16 |   294   557  52.8  3762   6.8  24  17 |    29    80   1 |
| 2006 nyg |  16 |   301   522  57.7  3244   6.2  24  18 |    25    21   0 |
| 2007 nyg |   9 |   168   283  59.4  1820   6.4  14  11 |    15    41   1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

 

Note the similarities in yds, cmp%, yds per att, and ints. About the only difference between the two is Elway's rushing abilities, and the fact Manning has thrown more TD's and fewer INT's.

 

Now everyone knows that Elway was hot in the 4th qtr and in the red zone, but few realize that Manning has that same trait. Though we're all disappointed with Manning's overall qb rating and completion percentage (just as Denver fans were by Elway's) we should be more impressed with his 4th quarter play and his abilities when in the short field.

Examples:

Manning's fourth qtr qb rating is incredibly higher than his overall, and has been since his 2nd year.

His 92.9 rating in the 4th shows that Eli gets better as the game progresses and that's a sign of a great qb.

Eli's 5 4th qtr TD's puts him in company with his brother, Hasselbeck, Romo, Brees, and Warner.

 

But Manning's play inside the opponents 20 tells the real tale.

In the area of the field where most qb's have a lower completion %, Eli's spikes.

Inside the 20 Manning is only inferior to Brady and Brees. His 64.1% is 3rd in the NFL.

Inside the 10 his 62.5% is equal to Palmer's and better than Peyton, Romo, Bulger, Favre, and Brady to name a few.

 

These were all early traits of one John Elway, as well as the low completion %, and the high INT's.

 

In 86, Elway's 3rd year, he lead what is known today as 'the drive', leading his team 98 yards in 5 mins to tie the Browns and eventually beat them in overtime.

In 06, Manning's 3rd year, he lead the team to overcome a 24-7 deficit in the 4th qtr, driving in the last 58 seconds for the game tying fg, and eventual overtime victory against the eagles.

 

You naysayers may bring up the fact that Elway made it to the superbowl his 4th year, and to that all I can say is defense. Elway had one. So far the closest thing to a defense Eli has had would be called 'swiss cheese'. This year isn't yet over and so far Manning has stood toe to toe with Elway as far as playoff contention.

 

I know today's game is faster paced, and players get dumped and replaced quicker than in Elway's day, but I would hate to throw away a future superbowl MVP and HOF qb, just because he had growing pains as Elway did.

Think about it. Elway is the only qb to start in the superbowl 5 times. And he won twice. What kind of laughing stock would the Broncos be today had they dumped/traded him after year 4?

 

Patience kids. Patience.

 

**Edited out the orange crush line. Technically the 80's Broncos defense were not the 'orange crush' but they were formidible and nasty just the same.

 

This is why the Dog will continue to dismiss this comparison...you have to go beyond the numbers...Elway has it all over Eli Manning in two distinct areas - one is that Elway was a consistent winner, the other is that Broncos fans always felt that they could win any game, no matter how overmatched, because they had Elway - the Giants fans have to feel like they are never in complete cpontrol of a game, no matter how weak the competetion, because of Mannings inconsistent play...Manning has a very, very, very long way to go before he should be mentioned in the same line as a QB the caliber of an Elway...

[ksm7]

This is why the Dog will continue to dismiss this comparison...you have to go beyond the numbers...Elway has it all over Eli Manning in two distinct areas - one is that Elway was a consistent winner, the other is that Broncos fans always felt that they could win any game, no matter how overmatched, because they had Elway - the Giants fans have to feel like they are never in complete cpontrol of a game, no matter how weak the competetion, because of Mannings inconsistent play...Manning has a very, very, very long way to go before he should be mentioned in the same line as a QB the caliber of an Elway...

[Nesta]

This is why the Dog will continue to dismiss this comparison...you have to go beyond the numbers...Elway has it all over Eli Manning in two distinct areas - one is that Elway was a consistent winner, the other is that Broncos fans always felt that they could win any game, no matter how overmatched, because they had Elway - the Giants fans have to feel like they are never in complete cpontrol of a game, no matter how weak the competetion, because of Mannings inconsistent play...Manning has a very, very, very long way to go before he should be mentioned in the same line as a QB the caliber of an Elway...

 

Right. Elway always won. Even the 4th year he went to the superbowl he lost 41-16 to a lesser Seahawks team.

[ksm7]

Right. Elway always won. Even the 4th year he went to the superbowl he lost 41-16 to a lesser Seahawks team.

 

well certainly he didn't always win...but they always believed they could win any game because of him...and when he was all they had, he won more then he lost...Manning has yet to prove that he can put the team on his shoulders when he needs to and carry them...the Dog isn't saying he can't, but as each game of year moves forward with limited evidence of this...well...ummm...you know...