Draft Day

[Mr. P]

If Jones has an elite level season, I hope we utilize it to trade him. 

[mastershake]

20 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

 

and then the next season when he plays poorly again?

The excuse for Jones this year will be something to the effect of he doesn't have a running game, and/or the WR's don't yet have enough time together, and/or the OL isn't good enough.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

3 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

Depends on how the Oline and injuries go.

I think the new Oline coach is going to help immensely and even if the group can become a league average Oline then the offense as a whole will be much improved from last year.

In terms of QB it's like any team that doesn't have their franchise guy, you just hope they can put someone out there that doesn't create turnovers and gets the ball where it's designed to go on the play.

All the other heroics are nice to have like Eli's late game drives and will put you over the top but I'm willing to say 20-25 teams in the NFL don't have a guy capable of that. 

When it comes to Jones I want nothing more for him to into the season healthy and slinging the rock around like his rookie year (without the 10+ fumbles) and getting the ball to our shiny new toy in Nabers. 

However if you have questions about your QB in year six you don't have a QB you just have a question mark. 

Defensively I think it will be good to see a coordinator who doesn't have that "ameba" type defense where guys are moving around at the line and who drops where and does what. Thibs playing 10 yard flat coverage doesn't strike fear into a QB, Thibs putting his hand in the fucking dirt and getting after them does.  

In terms of the health of the team I'm glad to hear that Daboll got the weight room and facilities all renovated this offseason and we have a new training and head of medical staff this year. Granted to still play on arguably the worse surface in the NFL according to players but all we can do is pray the new conditioning team is up to the task to get them ready. 

I believe last year was a massive fluke in terms of injuries and just underperformance across the board, atleast that's my hope. If and that's a big if the team is healthy and the Oline (and coach) can get the unit to a middle of the pack group we will see a better team next year.

Schoen/Daboll can't blame Gettys awful team building and contracts like he could say in years one and two. It's a whole new team/FO/coaches, etc, and NY isn't a patient place to play. 

 

I agree last year was a perfect negative storm.  The o-line should be improved with new coaching, playing DE's as DE's and not cover LB's will work.  Defensive ends are edge players for a reason.  My grandmother can cover better and she would do this for all of the money in the world.  The playing surface is like the 1980s with a carpet over concrete..  Hopefully we have brought our strength and conditioning to the 21st Century finally.  All these things coming together (or most of them) they should be mediocre at least and a first round playoff bye.   I would love to just go back to grass and mud as football was meant to be played.  The players need to organize and fight the artificial turf that cuts their careers in half or best case takes a third off of their careers.  For top players that can mean a lot of bank.  Which is why Barkley was a wasted pick for this team at this time.  We have spent five years in the wilderness... it is time to cut bait and start to fish again anew.  This is now their team with the exception of DJ.  Barkley has moved on... that is why IMHO 2025 will be our year and we just have to improve for 2024.  I believe we will.

[Mr. P]

Barkley was the right pick, we just shouldn’t have fired Coughlin a few years prior. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

4 hours ago, mastershake said:

2024 is likely yet another transitory year because of the uncertainty at the QB position.

Schoen and Co took a shot with Jones, only to realize we've all been conned, and he's his same injury and mistake prone self, but culminating in an offseason where they did nothing to address the position. Maybe Drew Lock will compete well in camp and become something, but I doubt it.

Lots of people claim Mara is behind the decision to retain and stick with Jones, and Schoen and Daboll have wanted to move on, which if true, probably lends itself to Schoen and Daboll being untouchable even if we have a bad season next season (unless something extraordinary happens). In other words, ownership will likely keep Schoen and Daboll around and give them a chance to draft and develop a new QB, and/or maybe give them a run with Lock if he shows something.

It's actually an interesting position the giants are in because I feel they have decent talent on the team to compete...except for at the QB position. If DJ wasn't injury prone, maybe he could be toned down to be a game manager, but he's too injury and mistake prone.

Looking at it from afar and having been a big shot, I believe that your surmising concerning DJ is correct.  I believe that Schoen and Daboll are stuck with DJ's contract and they were forced because of that horrible playoff win against the Vikings.  That was terrible.  Also this Mara is not his uncle the Duke... he should stay totally out of football decisions as he lacks the football knowledge/history to intervene as he has.  He should be like the other half owner...the Tisch son totally not involved with the football decisions.  I think Daboll and Schoen will stick it out with DJ in 2024... and dump him when they can.

[Mr. P]

1 minute ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

Looking at it from afar and having been a big shot, I believe that your surmising concerning DJ is correct.  I believe that Schoen and Daboll are stuck with DJ's contract and they were forced because of that horrible playoff win against the Vikings.  That was terrible.  Also this Mara is not his uncle the Duke... he should stay totally out of football decisions as he lacks the football knowledge/history to intervene as he has.  He should be like the other half owner...the Tisch son totally not involved with the football decisions.  I think Daboll and Schoen will stick it out with DJ in 2024... and dump him when they can.

 

The reports were that Tisch was heavily involved in the firing of Judge.  So he’s not hands off. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

5 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

 

The reports were that Tisch was heavily involved in the firing of Judge.  So he’s not hands off. 

That was a smart move.  Get involved when it is necessary.  Hands off on most football decisions.  He wants to have a winning team... not another business to oversee.  All of these people are the third generation anyway... Mara is not the first or second generation Mara and Tisch is the second generation son of Tisch.  The Giants will improve and coaches, players, GM's and even owners are with a team for a time and that is not forever.  They change and evolve... sometimes it is worse and sometimes it is better. 

[mastershake]

14 minutes ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

Looking at it from afar and having been a big shot, I believe that your surmising concerning DJ is correct.  I believe that Schoen and Daboll are stuck with DJ's contract and they were forced because of that horrible playoff win against the Vikings.  That was terrible.  Also this Mara is not his uncle the Duke... he should stay totally out of football decisions as he lacks the football knowledge/history to intervene as he has.  He should be like the other half owner...the Tisch son totally not involved with the football decisions.  I think Daboll and Schoen will stick it out with DJ in 2024... and dump him when they can.

Yep. And building on that... Daniel Jones owes his entire career to 4-5 games, including the Vikings game and his debut game against the Bucs. If not for like a handful of games, we'd have moved on from DJ already.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

42 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Yep. And building on that... Daniel Jones owes his entire career to 4-5 games, including the Vikings game and his debut game against the Bucs. If not for like a handful of games, we'd have moved on from DJ already.

Dave Brown lived that same fantasy when he debuted.  His first two games were Giants wins... then teams figured out DJ's fellow Duke guy and the rest is history.  The only difference is that Dave Brown was a whiny entitled fuck who blamed EVERYONE for his fuckups.  DJ is a stand up guy in the Eli mode which has blinded ownership to his flaws.

[BronxRik]

2 hours ago, Mr. P said:

 

Is he even gonna play this year?

I don't know, but he's eligible in '26.

When is Arch Manning eligible for the NFL Draft?

[Mr. P]

10 minutes ago, BronxRik said:

I don't know, but he's eligible in '26.

When is Arch Manning eligible for the NFL Draft?

 

Id like to see him win a starting job and actually play some college football. 

[mastershake]

46 minutes ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

Dave Brown lived that same fantasy when he debuted.  His first two games were Giants wins... then teams figured out DJ's fellow Duke guy and the rest is history.  The only difference is that Dave Brown was a whiny entitled fuck who blamed EVERYONE for his fuckups.  DJ is a stand up guy in the Eli mode which has blinded ownership to his flaws.

Oh god, I remember it well.

In 1994, it was: Well, he came back and won the last 7 games of the year to have a winning season, so maybe we have something if he just cuts down on turnovers

In 1995: Well, he cut down on the turnovers at least, even though we went 5-11

In 1996: Well, his INT rate is out of control, but he really doesn't have good talent around him and we're turning over a roster. Jim Fassell's a QB coach, he'll turn him around, and we just got Ike Hilliard!

[CrazedDogs]

3 hours ago, Mr. P said:

 

and then the next season when he plays poorly again?

If he meets the bar I set, he won’t. 

But there is no way the scenario I laid out actually happens. The man can’t find the end zone.
 

 

[CrazedDogs]

33 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Oh god, I remember it well.

In 1994, it was: Well, he came back and won the last 7 games of the year to have a winning season, so maybe we have something if he just cuts down on turnovers

In 1995: Well, he cut down on the turnovers at least, even though we went 5-11

In 1996: Well, his INT rate is out of control, but he really doesn't have good talent around him and we're turning over a roster. Jim Fassell's a QB coach, he'll turn him around, and we just got Ike Hilliard!

lol, it’s all so familiar…

[Mr. P]

6 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

If he meets the bar I set, he won’t. 

But there is no way the scenario I laid out actually happens. The man can’t find the end zone.
 

 

 

You really think there’s a bar to hit, where if hit, Jones would never have a bad season again?

 

 

 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

2 hours ago, mastershake said:

Oh god, I remember it well.

In 1994, it was: Well, he came back and won the last 7 games of the year to have a winning season, so maybe we have something if he just cuts down on turnovers

In 1995: Well, he cut down on the turnovers at least, even though we went 5-11

In 1996: Well, his INT rate is out of control, but he really doesn't have good talent around him and we're turning over a roster. Jim Fassell's a QB coach, he'll turn him around, and we just got Ike Hilliard!

Jim Fassell looked at the load of shit placed in his hands and was like NOPE...same with Kent Graham and Danny Kanell... game managers at most... Kent had a cannon and no accuracy... Danny had some accuracy but an arm like a wet noodle.  He did not get a real QB till he got Collins.  Too bad Collins panicked in the Super Bowl as it would have been a sweet ending.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

If he meets the bar I set, he won’t. 

But there is no way the scenario I laid out actually happens. The man can’t find the end zone.
 

 

It would be better if he had a case of the HEAVE THAT MOTHERFUCKER... like Kent Graham.  At least there would be throws downfield.  The other two QB's found the end zone every now and then.  Plus a lot of DJ's sacks/pressures were caused by his running and breaking containment.

[mastershake]

14 hours ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

It would be better if he had a case of the HEAVE THAT MOTHERFUCKER... like Kent Graham.  At least there would be throws downfield.  The other two QB's found the end zone every now and then.  Plus a lot of DJ's sacks/pressures were caused by his running and breaking containment.

Then after that abysmal 1996 Dave Brown season, they gave him a 3 year $14M contract 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

1 hour ago, mastershake said:

Then after that abysmal 1996 Dave Brown season, they gave him a 3 year $14M contract 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

The Giants were and are prone to over paying their scrubs.  Lambaste Reese all everyon wants but he and Acorsi did not have that disease of overpaying their own players.  They had a more sober appreciation of the market beyond Young and perhaps Schoen.  Schoen should have disappointed Giants' homer fans regarding DJ.  Just the mistakes of Young with Brown.  Just not as bad.

[Sephiroth]

22 hours ago, Mr. P said:

 

The reports were that Tisch was heavily involved in the firing of Judge.  So he’s not hands off. 

 

22 hours ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

That was a smart move.  Get involved when it is necessary.  Hands off on most football decisions.  He wants to have a winning team... not another business to oversee.  All of these people are the third generation anyway... Mara is not the first or second generation Mara and Tisch is the second generation son of Tisch.  The Giants will improve and coaches, players, GM's and even owners are with a team for a time and that is not forever.  They change and evolve... sometimes it is worse and sometimes it is better. 

 

Before the Judge meltdown he was probably going to get at least another year.  There would have been things to point to that were actually positive for him:

1. His offense was awful, but Mara hand picked Jason Garrett.  Judge had his coaches for defense and special teams and they were both decent. The real Achilles heel was the guy Mara picked. 

2.  His practices were run like well-oiled machines, and despite the "run another lap" nature of them, free agents wanted to come here and play. 

3.  When he saw a problem he wasted no time addressing it, like when he fired Columbo and took over O-line duties.  It was never a great line but it did improve a bit afterwards. 

Not saying it was wrong to get rid of him, but aside from the weird "this isn't a clown show" rant and the victory formation in your own red zone, there was a case to be made. Those two things did happen though and dude had to go.  He was in over his head at that point. 

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

The Giants were and are prone to over paying their scrubs.  Lambaste Reese all everyon wants but he and Acorsi did not have that disease of overpaying their own players.  They had a more sober appreciation of the market beyond Young and perhaps Schoen.  Schoen should have disappointed Giants' homer fans regarding DJ.  Just the mistakes of Young with Brown.  Just not as bad.

I think a lot of it was George Young. He never adapted to the new era of free agency in the 90's, and was stuck on hanging onto/developing his guys. He probably had Phil Simms in the back of his mind, who only became a franchise QB after year 5. Probably thought Brown just needed more time and could be the next Simms.

Notice once Ernie Arcosi takes over in 1998, the team makes a Super Bowl a few years later, plus lays the foundation for the 2007 Super Bowl team.

[Mr. P]

Of the fired post Coughlin coaches, the only one I may have given a longer leash would have been Shurmer. 

[mastershake]

5 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

Of the fired post Coughlin coaches, the only one I may have given a longer leash would have been Shurmer. 

That was a very odd one. Shurmer should have been given more time. In 2019, his 2nd year, they just drafted a QB, signaling they want to move on from Eli.

You'd think with a rookie QB that they think is their future, they wouldn't hold a bad season against Shurmer given he's in his rookie freaking year, not to mention your OL is still abysmal, not to mention the defense is ranked near dead last.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

42 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

 

 

Before the Judge meltdown he was probably going to get at least another year.  There would have been things to point to that were actually positive for him:

1. His offense was awful, but Mara hand picked Jason Garrett.  Judge had his coaches for defense and special teams and they were both decent. The real Achilles heel was the guy Mara picked. 

2.  His practices were run like well-oiled machines, and despite the "run another lap" nature of them, free agents wanted to come here and play. 

3.  When he saw a problem he wasted no time addressing it, like when he fired Columbo and took over O-line duties.  It was never a great line but it did improve a bit afterwards. 

Not saying it was wrong to get rid of him, but aside from the weird "this isn't a clown show" rant and the victory formation in your own red zone, there was a case to be made. Those two things did happen though and dude had to go.  He was in over his head at that point. 

Yes he was made a head coach before he got enough seasoning as a under coach.  He needed another two to three years of being an undercoach under someone like Belichek. 

[Mr. P]

2 minutes ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

Yes he was made a head coach before he got enough seasoning as a under coach.  He needed another two to three years of being an undercoach under someone like Belichek. 

 

nah Judge simply isn’t head coach material. 
 

guys now an “analyst” on the ole miss college staff