NY Giants @ Vikings game thread!

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, boohyah said:

You can't elevate Jones stature by dismissing what Eli did. If you think that the Giants win that game based off his supporting game you are misled. He got MVP both times and he deserved it, he was the best player in both games. 

 

Jones is playing well this year and he's a big part of the reason we are doing well. But it's one year. 

 

 

 

And the problem with the supporting cast argument is this: name one offensive player for the Eli era Giants that put up career numbers with a QB other than Eli. 

[Mr. P]

31 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

Gilbride’s offense could totally break defenses, but it made its offensive players look pretty stupid sometimes too.

 

 

Yeah and most casual football fans would see an Eli missed throw or Eli interception and wrongly assume it was just a bad throw by Eli.  

[Mr. P]

32 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

And the problem with the supporting cast argument is this: name one offensive player for the Eli era Giants that put up career numbers with a QB other than Eli. 

  
 

literally even just 1. 

[Nas]

6 hours ago, boohyah said:

You can't elevate Jones stature by dismissing what Eli did. If you think that the Giants win that game based off his supporting game you are misled. He got MVP both times and he deserved it, he was the best player in both games. 

 

Jones is playing well this year and he's a big part of the reason we are doing well. But it's one year. 

 

 

 

I never dismissed anything Eli did... just pointing out he, like everyone else, had his flaws.  

[boohyah]

1 hour ago, Nas said:

I never dismissed anything Eli did... just pointing out he, like everyone else, had his flaws.  

Oh please stop it, you absolutely did.  And folks here don't have blinkers on for Giants homerism. We were on Eli for years. 

Jones will be qb next year if the GM thinks he has it. Coach has to buy into it. It won't be based on his numbers versus Eli.

 

[Nas]

44 minutes ago, boohyah said:

Oh please stop it, you absolutely did.  And folks here don't have blinkers on for Giants homerism. We were on Eli for years. 

Jones will be qb next year if the GM thinks he has it. Coach has to buy into it. It won't be based on his numbers versus Eli.

 

Make your point.  Don’t tell us what others here think.  I know EXACTLY what I said… it’s on record.   We know EXACTLY what Eli was… we lived it… the good the bad and the in between.

 

[boohyah]

45 minutes ago, Nas said:

Make your point.  Don’t tell us what others here think.  I know EXACTLY what I said… it’s on record.   We know EXACTLY what Eli was… we lived it… the good the bad and the in between.

 

What the fuck are you talking about?. I don't think you exactly know anything based off this response. 

 

 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

13 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

heh, well Nas, yes I do remember Plax and Shockey throwing their hands up. That was an option based offense where the receiver was expected to choose their route based on the defense. Most of the time, on replay it was pretty clear that Eli was throwing to the correct place - for example, most commonly the target would be something like an equidistant point between two zone defenders - and it was Shockey or Plax who was out of position due to failing to recognize the coverage.

And I think the 'throwing up of the hands' was somewhat misinterpreted by us fans as being mad at Eli.... sometimes they were probably just frustrated at not being on the same page, rather than allocating blame. Sometimes. 

Shockey in particular was consistently out of position. He wasn't a good fit in a complicated offense. You may recall, the team got significantly better when Shockey got injured. Plax on the other hand really picked it up as 2007 went along. 

Note, never had the same problem throwing to Toomer.

Exactly, Shockey was no great Loss to me, and I hate him HATES IT for muffing that easy throw against the 69'ers for an easy TD in the playoff game we barely Lost due to Trey Junkin and a dumb ass referee

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

8 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

Gilbride’s offense could totally break defenses, but it made its offensive players look pretty stupid sometimes too.

 

For sure

Then it was Killdrive up close 

[Nas]

9 hours ago, boohyah said:

What the fuck are you talking about?. I don't think you exactly know anything based off this response. 

 

 

Discuss the topic not the person… agree to disagree and move the fuck on…. It seems like I have to remind you to have manners.   
 

Now let me rephrase: Whatever it is I said about Eli in this thread is still here.   I haven’t edited anything.   If you want to interpret that as being dismissive of Eli (it wasn’t), so be it.   Your opinion vs mine… that’s it.   
 

DJ has been the better QB (than Eli) at same point in their respective careers… and he did it with far less talent.   My opinion (the numbers back it up).   

[boohyah]

1 hour ago, Nas said:

Discuss the topic not the person… agree to disagree and move the fuck on…. It seems like I have to remind you to have manners.   
 

Now let me rephrase: Whatever it is I said about Eli in this thread is still here.   I haven’t edited anything.   If you want to interpret that as being dismissive of Eli (it wasn’t), so be it.   Your opinion vs mine… that’s it.   
 

DJ has been the better QB (than Eli) at same point in their respective careers… and he did it with far less talent.   My opinion (the numbers back it up).   

Remind me to have manners. When the fuck did my parents become members of this board.

Don't like what I post, put me on ignore. Otherwise go fuck yourself.

 

 

[Nas]

27 minutes ago, boohyah said:

Remind me to have manners. When the fuck did my parents become members of this board.

Don't like what I post, put me on ignore. Otherwise go fuck yourself.

Are you seriously scoffing at the idea that you need to maintain civility?   Really?

It seems the older you get the bigger of an asshole you've become.   Or maybe you've always been a piece of shit all along.     Yea... either speak respectfully or GO FUCK YOURSELF (see how easy it was to type?  With CAPS too? ).    I mean what a fucking novel idea it is to debate and disagree respectfully... where the fuck have I been living? 

 

[BlueInCanada]

It's a Sportswrath rule almost.

When a thread goes beyond its lifetime it turns into a pissing match between members.

lol 

[Mr. P]

9 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

It's a Sportswrath rule almost.

When a thread goes beyond its lifetime it turns into a pissing match between members.

lol 

 

lol. 

[boohyah]

A guy talking about civility then calls me an asshole and a piece of shit in the same post.  Can't make this shit up. 

I will post what the fuck I want sunshine. Get off your soapbox.

 

 

[boohyah]

4 minutes ago, The P said:

 

lol. 

It's Uk's fault. He let this go on too long.

[Mr. P]

Oof I just looked at Jones stats for a reminder.  
 

He’s only thrown more than 13 tds once.     He’d need to have some monster games to even hit 20 this year.  
 

Qb’s with bad supporting cast and bad coaching still put up way better numbers than that. 

[CrazedDogs]

4 hours ago, Nas said:

DJ has been the better QB (than Eli) at same point in their respective careers… and he did it with far less talent.   My opinion (the numbers back it up).   

Nas, you’re getting a lot of push back on this because there probably isn’t a single knowledgeable football person that would back that up. There’s a wide array of opinions on any football matter, but on this you’re way, way out there.

if the only metric were completion percentage, you may have a point, but it’s not even a particularly good metric; it measures depth of target more than it does a QB’s total value to an offense. If you want to make a statistic based argument you have many better options, but even so, statistics remain an incomplete way to evaluate football players. 

look Jones has improved, there are a lot of out of date opinions on him the last couple months. And he just had his very best game. (In a loss.) But people do not improve linearly, indefinitely; he’ll hit his ceiling sooner or later. He’ll reach his high water mark. This may be it, he’s in year four, he’s not a baby out there anymore. 
 

he has the work ethic, I’m rooting for him, I think there’s a price point that we’re happy to have him back. It sure the fuck isn’t top 8 QB money.

 

[Nas]

3 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

Nas, you’re getting a lot of push back on this because there probably isn’t a single knowledgeable football person that would back that up. There’s a wide array of opinions on any football matter, but on this you’re way, way out there.

if the only metric were completion percentage, you may have a point, but it’s not even a particularly good metric; it measures depth of target more than it does a QB’s total value to an offense. If you want to make a statistic based argument you have many better options, but even so, statistics remain an incomplete way to evaluate football players. 

look Jones has improved, there are a lot of out of date opinions on him the last couple months. And he just had his very best game. (In a loss.) But people do not improve linearly, indefinitely; he’ll hit his ceiling sooner or later. He’ll reach his high water mark. This may be it, he’s in year four, he’s not a baby out there anymore. 
 

he has the work ethic, I’m rooting for him, I think there’s a price point that we’re happy to have him back. It sure the fuck isn’t top 8 QB money.

 

CD, respectfully (I have manners ), I provided more data than mere completion %.  I provided a whole array of data points.   And probably the reason I'm going harder than I should on this is because of these cemented opinions of Jones.    The FO admitted they haven't given him shit... including the turnstile of coaches (inept coaches that is).   I LOVE Eli as much as the next guy and never have I or would I dismiss what he meant to the franchise... we can all go back on this board and revisit our comments (I know I mentioned he's induced severe heartburn for me a LOT).    It's funny that DJ reminds me a lot of Eli (with hopefully a lot less heartburn).

Look, I'm in finance and although I crunch numbers all day, I'm mindful of other aspects of Human Capital.   I argue for things like morale and just bending over backwards (keeps life easier with less drama)... If I'm the GM, I'm giving DJ a 4 year contract  that will make him happy.   I highly doubt DJ will be greedy or demand something that will handcuff the FO from signing talent around him.    I've been in many situations where I'm faced with many different points of view... once was the board of directors grilling me on certain cost allocations and they seem to have gotten it all figured out (they didn't).   I pulled blank pieces of paper and handed one to each and ask them to tell me how each one of them would do it... They obliged (although nervously).   I'd told them at the beginning of the discussion that that particular topic is not an exact science, and I could sense the short attention span.   Sure enough I got their responses and all of them were different... That was enough for me to get enough attention-bandwidth out of them to understand the process and the method behind the madness.   

For those naysayers, I ask this: What's your plan if DJ is signed by another team?    (I have my plan and his name is Davis Webb lol)  All joking asside:  Draft?  Sure.. how much capital are you looking to give up to move up?   And what guarantees do you have that the draftee will be better than DJ?    FA?  Sure, you really want to sign someone in their prime?  Wait, who's in their prime and is available?  at what price point?

I'm amazed (disgusted) at how companies will pay a whole lot for a new candidate when they could've retained the talent they had for a lot less.  

[Virginia Giant]

I mean, yeah DJ may have a better completion percentage.  But the difference is Eli went down the field with the ball.  Eli's career yards per completion is more than a yard higher than DJ and is in Peyton and Favre territory.  DJ's high completion percentage is because he's spent a lot of time throwing 5 yard curls. Not to say Eli didn't benefit from OBJ, Cruz, etc taking a slant 60 yards, but Eli was still taking his shots.  In fact in those early years the best part of Eli's game was the deep ball.  

The difference is, by year 4, Eli was taking over games in the 4th quarter, elevating the team around him, and winning games.  And Eli threw a lot of INTs, but I'll goddamn bet he leads the fucking league in career INT's that hit his own fucking guys hands first.  

I like DJ and his potential.  I've been up and down on him all season, but I'm comfortable seeing if he can do it with better support for a couple years.  But there is no comparison between him and Eli at this point.  By year 4, albeit with better support and coaching, we all knew we had that guy with Eli, even if he made mistakes.  And by year 4 he was, you know, winning a super bowl. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

This^^^

At this point DJ is a decent to good game manager

Get you to the playoffs but not beyond I believe

[Mr. P]

Right.  

Eli is near the top of the list of all time quarterback you would want leading your team down 6 with 4 minutes to go.  
 

[Nas]

13 hours ago, Virginia Giant said:

I mean, yeah DJ may have a better completion percentage.  But the difference is Eli went down the field with the ball.  Eli's career yards per completion is more than a yard higher than DJ and is in Peyton and Favre territory.  DJ's high completion percentage is because he's spent a lot of time throwing 5 yard curls. Not to say Eli didn't benefit from OBJ, Cruz, etc taking a slant 60 yards, but Eli was still taking his shots.  In fact in those early years the best part of Eli's game was the deep ball.  

The difference is, by year 4, Eli was taking over games in the 4th quarter, elevating the team around him, and winning games.  And Eli threw a lot of INTs, but I'll goddamn bet he leads the fucking league in career INT's that hit his own fucking guys hands first.  

I like DJ and his potential.  I've been up and down on him all season, but I'm comfortable seeing if he can do it with better support for a couple years.  But there is no comparison between him and Eli at this point.  By year 4, albeit with better support and coaching, we all knew we had that guy with Eli, even if he made mistakes.  And by year 4 he was, you know, winning a super bowl. 

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Eli’s entire career to only the 1st 4 years of DJ’s… a better comparison would be the first 4 years of Eli’s career.

Further, Eli had some pretty good receivers… Nicks, Plax, Cruz, Plax, Toomer… and an actual OL.  And stable coaching to boot.   
 

 

[CrazedDogs]

27 minutes ago, Nas said:

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Eli’s entire career to only the 1st 4 years of DJ’s… a better comparison would be the first 4 years of Eli’s career.

Further, Eli had some pretty good receivers… Nicks, Plax, Cruz, Plax, Toomer… and an actual OL.  And stable coaching to boot.   
 

 

So you say we should compare just the first four years…. but Eli didn’t have most of those receivers or a stable OL for most of those first four years either. Coaching was more stable, but not truly stable; I think you forget that Gilbride was the second offensive coordinator, and Coughlin was on thin ice entering 2007.

the 2005-2008 OL was a good run blocking group, arguably the best in the league in that time in my opinion. In pass pro they were never truly very good. They were maulers that got by on Eli’s pocket presence and good calls at the line. 
 

 

 

[Mr. P]

10 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

So you say we should compare just the first four years…. but Eli didn’t have most of those receivers or a stable OL for most of those first four years either. Coaching was more stable, but not truly stable; I think you forget that Gilbride was the second offensive coordinator, and Coughlin was on thin ice entering 2007.

the 2005-2008 OL was a good run blocking group, arguably the best in the league in that time in my opinion. In pass pro they were never truly very good. They were maulers that got by on Eli’s pocket presence and good calls at the line. 
 

 

 

 

First 4 years Eli had been to the playoffs 3 Times with one super bowl win and one super bowl mvp trophy. 
 

 

 

 

And the wide receivers benefitted from playing with Eli way more than Eli benefitted from them.