NY Giants @ Vikings game thread!

[Nas]

16 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Then Thielen is wide open who is a legit #1 in the NFL.

I don't have a problem with Winks playcalling.

He has practice squad players trying to cover one of the best WR units in the NFL.

His only strength was to blitz because regardless the secondary was going to make a play.

We need McKinney and Jackson back asap.

Robinson wouldn't hurt either. 

Ditto on McKinney… the team is different when he’s playing.

[Iceman_NYG]

18 hours ago, Nas said:

True.   I’m just looking at what other QBs are working with compared DJ and it’s laughable.   DJ can play in this league… at a very high level.   He easily outperformed Cousins yesterday.   I’m not mincing words when I say I’ll pick DJ over any other QB in the league not named Mahomes (but even then I’d still pick DJ because I’m a homer like that 😂 )

I dont know if I would go so far (but I wont disagree - Burrow is there, Herbert is another - but these guys have not gone through 3 HCs and 4 OCs in 4 years with a shitty OL year on year - but what DJ has done with scrubs and people dropping like pins around him is something even Brady or Rodgers havent done so far - and he hasnt complained ONE BIT - not a word. If there is a QB closest to Eli its DJ and right now - I want him to be the franchise QB for the Giants unless a Burrow or a Mahomes comes along - but something tells me we wont be having the top pick for a while now 

[Nas]

2 hours ago, Iceman_NYG said:

I dont know if I would go so far (but I wont disagree - Burrow is there, Herbert is another - but these guys have not gone through 3 HCs and 4 OCs in 4 years with a shitty OL year on year - but what DJ has done with scrubs and people dropping like pins around him is something even Brady or Rodgers havent done so far - and he hasnt complained ONE BIT - not a word. If there is a QB closest to Eli its DJ and right now - I want him to be the franchise QB for the Giants unless a Burrow or a Mahomes comes along - but something tells me we wont be having the top pick for a while now 

Point taken however, we can only make a fair comparison when DJ has the support those other QBs have.    DJ is a better version of Eli (Eli never stopped throwing interceptions)

[CrazedDogs]

3 hours ago, Nas said:

Point taken however, we can only make a fair comparison when DJ has the support those other QBs have.    DJ is a better version of Eli (Eli never stopped throwing interceptions)

heh, well it wasn't until the last few years of Eli's career that I had any doubt he could make the game interesting at the end given the ball and a one score game. The reason being: Eli took good chances. I'll consider Jones on Eli's level when he wins a Super Bowl that the team wouldn't have won without him. 

I disagree that we can't evaluate Jones until he's in a more ideal situation. He's playing well. I think that INT is a good example of a play that didn't go right, but was the kind of thing we want to see more of from Jones. It was an open receiver, down the field, and the defensive player made a much better play than our guy. It happens, especially when our starters are practice squad material. Goes in the book as an INT, but I'd rather see a few more of those a season, because if you're taking those kinds of chances then you're scoring a lot more TDs too. 

Just in the last few weeks it seems Jones has turned a corner when it comes to keeping his eyes downfield and his pocket presence. Manipulate the pocket, scramble around behind the line, find someone coming free downfield on your fourth read or a second window throw.... these are things we haven't seen from Jones until now. I think a lot of the evaluation on Jones is out of date. He was pretty bad for a while there, but its not about where you start, its about how you finish. 

 

[Mr. P]

Eli would have Slayton as a 1000 yard receiver. 

[Nas]

5 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

heh, well it wasn't until the last few years of Eli's career that I had any doubt he could make the game interesting at the end given the ball and a one score game. The reason being: Eli took good chances. I'll consider Jones on Eli's level when he wins a Super Bowl that the team wouldn't have won without him. 

I disagree that we can't evaluate Jones until he's in a more ideal situation. He's playing well. I think that INT is a good example of a play that didn't go right, but was the kind of thing we want to see more of from Jones. It was an open receiver, down the field, and the defensive player made a much better play than our guy. It happens, especially when our starters are practice squad material. Goes in the book as an INT, but I'd rather see a few more of those a season, because if you're taking those kinds of chances then you're scoring a lot more TDs too. 

Just in the last few weeks it seems Jones has turned a corner when it comes to keeping his eyes downfield and his pocket presence. Manipulate the pocket, scramble around behind the line, find someone coming free downfield on your fourth read or a second window throw.... these are things we haven't seen from Jones until now. I think a lot of the evaluation on Jones is out of date. He was pretty bad for a while there, but its not about where you start, its about how you finish. 

 

I've seen enough of DJ to believe he's a very good QB and can be great with a better cast around him.    I love Eli as much as the next guy but let's not pretend he didn't also fumble the ball with no defender touching him... Eli's toughness and grit is what stood out (can never forget how they had to peel him off the turf in SF)... Yet Eli had a lot more to work with.. And I don't want us to dance around with his contract... plenty of teams out there are in need of a QB and will pay him his worth.    Pay the man.. he's earned it.   

To your point, I think Jones has exceled quite a bit under this coaching regime... His performance last game cemented my faith in him.    

[RandolphScott]

Daniel Jones isn’t on the same hemisphere as Eli Manning. 

[BronxRik]

10 hours ago, Nas said:

Point taken however, we can only make a fair comparison when DJ has the support those other QBs have.    DJ is a better version of Eli (Eli never stopped throwing interceptions)

WTF did they put in your eggnog??? 

[Iceman_NYG]

That INT against Minnesota, Hodgins just pussied out on that play and let the defender break-in and make a play - he should have been fighting for that ball - or at the very lease get an Offensive PI or some shit - he just stood there and watched the defender play better than him.

I think this is the first coaching regime - that the whole team as a whole minus a few bad eggs like Golladay/ Toney - has literally bought into and they make the team feel comfortable - and confident that they can hang in there. If we meet Minny again in the Playoffs - Im sure the result will be different.

 

[Nas]

21 hours ago, BronxRik said:

WTF did they put in your eggnog??? 

Remember all the talk about whether Eli was Elite... and only us Giants fans thought he was...  Eli had his ups and downs.    And turned the ball over A LOT.   I know it's weird trying to compare DJ to Eli... Except people are acting like Eli was flawless in every game he played...  DJ hasn't had half the support Eli had.... so yea I'm claiming that DJ is better than Eli.    He's certainly better than Cousins and Hurts (Hurts sucks if it wasn't for all the tools around him).  

I know I know... someone here is going to pile on but here it is:

Elis career completion % is 60.3% (the first 4 years is actually 54.7%... compare that to DJ's 63.8% below)

Source: Eli Manning Stats, News, Bio | ESPN

DJ's is 63.8%

Source: Daniel Jones Career Stats | NFL.com

Eli threw 366 TDs vs 244 INTs for a 1.5 ratio or 3 TDs for every 2 Interceptions (it's a lot worse in the 1st 4 years of his career 77 TDs vs 64 INTs)

DJ threw 58 TDs vs 34 INTs for a 1.7 ratio.    

Again, DJ has SHIT to work with and that includes inept coaches year after year after year.

We LOVE Eli because of the 2 trophies and the fact that he was a class act... But numbers don't lie.   

Which leads me to the statement I've been repeating here... this team has 99 problems and the QB ain't one.    Give the man some WRs and a better OL and watch him become top 5 in this league.    

[CrazedDogs]

3 hours ago, Nas said:

Remember all the talk about whether Eli was Elite... and only us Giants fans thought he was...  Eli had his ups and downs.    And turned the ball over A LOT.   I know it's weird trying to compare DJ to Eli... Except people are acting like Eli was flawless in every game he played...  DJ hasn't had half the support Eli had.... so yea I'm claiming that DJ is better than Eli.    He's certainly better than Cousins and Hurts (Hurts sucks if it wasn't for all the tools around him).  

I know I know... someone here is going to pile on but here it is:

Elis career completion % is 60.3% (the first 4 years is actually 54.7%... compare that to DJ's 63.8% below)

Source: Eli Manning Stats, News, Bio | ESPN

DJ's is 63.8%

Source: Daniel Jones Career Stats | NFL.com

Eli threw 366 TDs vs 244 INTs for a 1.5 ratio or 3 TDs for every 2 Interceptions (it's a lot worse in the 1st 4 years of his career 77 TDs vs 64 INTs)

DJ threw 58 TDs vs 34 INTs for a 1.7 ratio.    

Again, DJ has SHIT to work with and that includes inept coaches year after year after year.

We LOVE Eli because of the 2 trophies and the fact that he was a class act... But numbers don't lie.   

Which leads me to the statement I've been repeating here... this team has 99 problems and the QB ain't one.    Give the man some WRs and a better OL and watch him become top 5 in this league.    

Eh, different rules back then, very different offenses. No point in using completion percentage as a metric. I don’t see much point in comparing Eli and Jones either. Very different players.

and you remember the ‘is Eli elite’ saga completely different from me. I recall non Giants fans referring to Eli as a living breathing football IQ test; you could tell if someone understood football by their opinion on Eli. If they thought Eli was mediocre or worse, you knew right off it wasn’t someone who really understood how games are won and lost. 

Jones has as much or more physical potential than Eli, for sure. The comparison ends there. 

[RandolphScott]

Yeah I’m not reading all that shit because it isn’t right. 

[RandolphScott]

40 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

Eh, different rules back then, very different offenses. No point in using completion percentage as a metric. I don’t see much point in comparing Eli and Jones either. Very different players.

and you remember the ‘is Eli elite’ saga completely different from me. I recall non Giants fans referring to Eli as a living breathing football IQ test; you could tell if someone understood football by their opinion on Eli. If they thought Eli was mediocre or worse, you knew right off it wasn’t someone who really understood how games are won and lost. 

Jones has as much or more physical potential than Eli, for sure. The comparison ends there. 

Daniel Jones playing in Gilbride’s offense would have been a downright disaster.

[Nas]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

Eh, different rules back then, very different offenses. No point in using completion percentage as a metric. I don’t see much point in comparing Eli and Jones either. Very different players.

and you remember the ‘is Eli elite’ saga completely different from me. I recall non Giants fans referring to Eli as a living breathing football IQ test; you could tell if someone understood football by their opinion on Eli. If they thought Eli was mediocre or worse, you knew right off it wasn’t someone who really understood how games are won and lost. 

Jones has as much or more physical potential than Eli, for sure. The comparison ends there. 

That’s bs.   It was mostly us Giants fans who thought Eli was elite even though deep down we knew Eli was an interception machine… Remember Plax and Shockey throwing their hands in the air when the passes Eli threw were wildly off the mark?  Remember when Eli would fumble the ball untouched?  Eli came through in the 2 SB runs but with a very good supporting cast on both sides of the ball.   

I didn’t just compare the completion %.

To simply dismiss the completion % and the number of TDs and the number of INTs and the quality of the players around the QB and say nothing to see here is utter bullshit.  
 

I like what I’ve seen from this kid and I’m rooting for him… right now DJ is our best option.

[Nas]

2 hours ago, RandolphScott said:

Yeah I’m not reading all that shit because it isn’t right. 

You realize this doesn’t make sense don’t you?  

It’s easy to spot a heckler who has nothing to add to the conversation.   A lot of us are grown soooo any day now.

 

But don’t worry… I know exactly what you’re trying to do… kindda funny in a lame kind of way…

[RandolphScott]

You’re wrong. End of story. 
 

:-) 

[Nas]

[RandolphScott]

Daniel Jones struggles with reading defenses, that isn’t something that Eli Manning struggled with after 2007.

 

His first 3 full seasons he had alot of turnovers but he also had that “it” factor of coming from behind to win games. 
 

The only thing Jones has over Eli is his running ability. Numbers don’t tell the full story. 

[Nas]

This is DJs 4th year, correct?   Who were Eli’s receivers and OLs compared to that of Jones?

it’s true that #s don’t tell the whole story… numbers don’t lie either.    

[CrazedDogs]

14 hours ago, RandolphScott said:

Daniel Jones playing in Gilbride’s offense would have been a downright disaster.

yeah, Jones is playing great relative to expectations. But he's still playing in a training wheels offense. A lot of half field reads. A lot of decoy routes - on that, I presume, because we aren't taking many shots to the receivers running deep clear out routes. 

Same reason that gives me pause with a guy like Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray, and several other upper echelon QBs... good feet are no match for a good mind. 

 

[CrazedDogs]

12 hours ago, Nas said:

That’s bs.   It was mostly us Giants fans who thought Eli was elite even though deep down we knew Eli was an interception machine… Remember Plax and Shockey throwing their hands in the air when the passes Eli threw were wildly off the mark?  Remember when Eli would fumble the ball untouched?  Eli came through in the 2 SB runs but with a very good supporting cast on both sides of the ball.   

I didn’t just compare the completion %.

To simply dismiss the completion % and the number of TDs and the number of INTs and the quality of the players around the QB and say nothing to see here is utter bullshit.  
 

I like what I’ve seen from this kid and I’m rooting for him… right now DJ is our best option.

heh, well Nas, yes I do remember Plax and Shockey throwing their hands up. That was an option based offense where the receiver was expected to choose their route based on the defense. Most of the time, on replay it was pretty clear that Eli was throwing to the correct place - for example, most commonly the target would be something like an equidistant point between two zone defenders - and it was Shockey or Plax who was out of position due to failing to recognize the coverage.

And I think the 'throwing up of the hands' was somewhat misinterpreted by us fans as being mad at Eli.... sometimes they were probably just frustrated at not being on the same page, rather than allocating blame. Sometimes. 

Shockey in particular was consistently out of position. He wasn't a good fit in a complicated offense. You may recall, the team got significantly better when Shockey got injured. Plax on the other hand really picked it up as 2007 went along. 

Note, never had the same problem throwing to Toomer.

[Mr. P]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

heh, well Nas, yes I do remember Plax and Shockey throwing their hands up. That was an option based offense where the receiver was expected to choose their route based on the defense. Most of the time, on replay it was pretty clear that Eli was throwing to the correct place - for example, most commonly the target would be something like an equidistant point between two zone defenders - and it was Shockey or Plax who was out of position due to failing to recognize the coverage.

And I think the 'throwing up of the hands' was somewhat misinterpreted by us fans as being mad at Eli.... sometimes they were probably just frustrated at not being on the same page, rather than allocating blame. Sometimes. 

Shockey in particular was consistently out of position. He wasn't a good fit in a complicated offense. You may recall, the team got significantly better when Shockey got injured. Plax on the other hand really picked it up as 2007 went along. 

Note, never had the same problem throwing to Toomer.

 

and almost everytime they threw their hands up the camera would immediately switch to Eli who would be making hand gestures showing them the way they should have went. 

[RandolphScott]

On 12/25/2022 at 12:21 PM, Nas said:

Ditto on McKinney… the team is different when he’s playing.

Now this is so true.

 

He’s a difference maker in the secondary because he can go sideline to sideline. 
 

Julian Love is a good player but he isn’t X-Man 

[boohyah]

You can't elevate Jones stature by dismissing what Eli did. If you think that the Giants win that game based off his supporting game you are misled. He got MVP both times and he deserved it, he was the best player in both games. 

 

Jones is playing well this year and he's a big part of the reason we are doing well. But it's one year. 

 

 

 

[CrazedDogs]

2 hours ago, The P said:

 

and almost everytime they threw their hands up the camera would immediately switch to Eli who would be making hand gestures showing them the way they should have went. 

Gilbride’s offense could totally break defenses, but it made its offensive players look pretty stupid sometimes too.