The State of the Linebackers / DE's / Safeties

[BleedinBlue]

Interesting read from Ed Valentine's question and answer session.

 

Question: "I was wondering if you have thought about a write up of tweener positions/players. Looking at the roster there's a couple of guys that are taking on mixed roles on defense. LB/DE (Kiwi, Moore), Safety/LB (Williams/Cooper/Hill), and also Rolle on slot/safety. How do you see the defense taking shape? What sets or schemes seem to be possible? How will this impact the roster"?

 

Answer: "I think it's way too early to answer some of those questions. It seems like the Giants are looking at Mathias Kiwanuka as primarily, or maybe even entirely, a defensive end right now. That's something I know many around here will celebrate. Early indications are Damontre Moore could be moved around a bit. As for the safety/hybrid types Will Hill is probably first on the list, with Cooper Taylor and maybe even Terrell Thomas. It's no secret that you will see the three-safety look and maybe even some six-defensive back sets with one linebacker -- more and more NFL teams are doing that. As for the roster it wouldn't shock me if the Giants carry one fewer true linebacker than they traditionally might.

[Herc]

right, that bolded part is exactly why we aren't investing big resources in the linebacker position anymore. why use a 1st round pick on a player who isn't on the field a lot?

[BleedinBlue]

right, that bolded part is exactly why we aren't investing big resources in the linebacker position anymore. why use a 1st round pick on a player who isn't on the field a lot?

 

And we've put together quite a nice looking crew of safeties. I have to believe that is the reason the Giants haven't gone nuts adding high cost linebackers. I can't imagine the Giants playing one LB with 6 defensive backs a whole lot, but I can definitely see them going with 2 LB's a whole lot.

[Storm]

Yep, I remember the time we had all those defensive backs on the field all the time and all the Indianapolis Colts and Peyton Manning did all game was audible to runs and run it up the middle, just like last year with Alfred Morris going nuts on us constantly. Great defensive scheme the 1-1-9 (exaggeration) is.

 

This is the first I mention it, but color me concerned. You still need big bodies to stop the run, even in a passing league. It just highlights the need for more athletic linebackers. Not more safeties. My opinion is all.

[Sephiroth]

right, that bolded part is exactly why we aren't investing big resources in the linebacker position anymore. why use a 1st round pick on a player who isn't on the field a lot?

 

Because having even one three-down linebacker is worth it in lieu of your fifth-string DE.

[Allstarjim]

right, that bolded part is exactly why we aren't investing big resources in the linebacker position anymore. why use a 1st round pick on a player who isn't on the field a lot?

 

Not saying it has to be a first rounder but if you question why you would invest resources in the linebacker position... the answer lies in the backfield of the Redskins' Offense.

[BleedinBlue]

 

 

Not saying it has to be a first rounder but if you question why you would invest resources in the linebacker position... the answer lies in the backfield of the Redskins' Offense.

..

 

I don't think we need to "invest" heavily in linebackers. Without investing heavily, the Giants have:

 

Dan Conner (27 years old - the no. 1 middle linebacker in the 2008 draft - First Team All-American in 2007 and MVP of the senior bowl....the only reason the Cowboy's let him go was because they didn't have the cap space to keep him) He came to us cheap!

 

Mark Herzlich (25 years old considered the best LB in his class before getting cancer - First Team All-American in 2008 - he beat cancer and has returned to form) He came to us cheap!

 

Aaron Curry (27 years old and the no. 1 LB in the 2009 draft taken in first round with the no. 4 overall pick) He came to us cheap!

 

Keith Rivers (27 years old and 2007 All-American, taken in first round with the no. 9 overall pick in the 2008 draft) He didn't come cheap and costs the Giants 2.16 million per year...still a bargain

 

Jacquian Williams (24 years old, taken in the 6th round of the 2011 draft by the Giants) Many believe he is an up and comer

 

Spencer Paysinger (24 years old, UDFA - has put on 20 lbs of muscle in the off-season - showed flashes last year and might be better than Williams before it's through...he's definitely a keeper)

 

Jake Muasau (23 years old and has impressed the Giants with his speed and hitting. Georgia State's Most Valuable Defensive Player the last two years he played. He holds the school's record for tackles and interceptions - has ridiculous hair like Troy Polamalu) The Giants kept him on the practice squad last year and if the stories are true, the staff likes the kid a lot.

 

Etienne Sabino (22 years old, UDFA two year starter at Ohio State as MLB)Will be lucky to make practice squad

 

Kyle Bosworth (26 years old, 2-years exp in NFL - practice fodder)

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

We have a plethora of linebackers who were tops in their class and first round draft picks. They came cheap because some of them have been hurt off and on, some let money get to their head, some beat cancer, etc. But together as a group, we should be able to keep enough of them healthy while we develop the youngsters that are coming into their own.

 

Regardless, we easily could have 20-30 million dollars wrapped up in 3 linebackers and not have anything better than what we already have on the roster...especially considering how our d-line has sucked wind.

 

We adjust our defense for whatever team we are playing and teams do the same to us. Last year, every team knew our D-Line was porous and were quick to get rid of the ball because of our DE's, as well as throw a variety of run plays at us to exploit our LB's who were often out of position and guarding for the short pass and trusting the d-line to stop the run....which led to us requiring superstar linebackers just to make up for the problems in front of them as they had to be in two places at once.

 

Our d-line is improved and if our LB's can stay healthy, we have a ton of options. Most importantly, OUR D-LINE IS BETTER.

 

----------------------------

Fewell is in the last year of his contract and he's had two very bad years. He's history if he cannot use the players he's got to outsmart his opponents offensive strategy. It's not just the players that are the problem as they pretty much do precisely what their defensive coordinator tells them they must do. But ole Perry is getting outsmarted time and time again. Having a couple LB's that cost us 20 million a year won't do any good if the d-coordinator has them out of position for a play. Fewell might have blamed it on the defensive line, but in the end, it's his strategy that has sucked. Jim Herrmann (linebacker coach) is NOT without blame as well. I suspect he is also in the hot seat.

[Allstarjim]

Bleedin', even as an optimistist, that's an overly rosey breakdown of our situation. I understand how good, pre-cancer, Herzlich was as a linebacker in college, for example. When he has played for us however, no one would mistake him for Urlacher. He isn't as quick or as athletic as we need. Not a sideline to sideline guy, and he gets lost in pass defense, even when he has been in position. It doesn't mean he can't get better, and maybe incrementally his recovery is allowing for more of that speed and athleticism, but at this point, it would seem unlikely.

 

Rivers, on the other hand, HAS shown he can be a very good linebacker, but he can't stay on the field. If he gives us 14 games of relatively injury free performance, I will be pleasantly surprised. But thus far, he hasn't shown he can do that.

 

Aaron Curry, his problems are well documented. Far more relevant than the position he was drafted 5 or 6 years ago is his lack of performance since then.

 

Dan Connor? Injuries galore, and performance problems probably related to the injuries.

 

We have a patchwork linebacking corps. That doesn't mean that there isn't talent there that can emerge and stay healthy. But there are reasons all these supposed studs were available for us to get them so cheap.

[BleedinBlue]

Bleedin', even as an optimistist, that's an overly rosey breakdown of our situation. I understand how good, pre-cancer, Herzlich was as a linebacker in college, for example. When he has played for us however, no one would mistake him for Urlacher. He isn't as quick or as athletic as we need. Not a sideline to sideline guy, and he gets lost in pass defense, even when he has been in position. It doesn't mean he can't get better, and maybe incrementally his recovery is allowing for more of that speed and athleticism, but at this point, it would seem unlikely.

 

Rivers, on the other hand, HAS shown he can be a very good linebacker, but he can't stay on the field. If he gives us 14 games of relatively injury free performance, I will be pleasantly surprised. But thus far, he hasn't shown he can do that.

 

Aaron Curry, his problems are well documented. Far more relevant than the position he was drafted 5 or 6 years ago is his lack of performance since then.

 

Dan Connor? Injuries galore, and performance problems probably related to the injuries.

 

We have a patchwork linebacking corps. That doesn't mean that there isn't talent there that can emerge and stay healthy. But there are reasons all these supposed studs were available for us to get them so cheap.

 

I agree that it's patchwork. But we also have Kiwinuka who can switch to LB in a heartbeat, and Damontre Moore has been getting reps standing up (i.e., will play some outside linebacker) in different defensive sets. Also, Cooper Taylor has experience at linebacker and is slotted to occasionally play LB in certain sets. I didn't add their names to an already impressive list. And the oldest player in our LB crew is 27 yrs old so even though they've been hurt (and really, what football player hasn't been hurt after a couple years of regular play), they haven't even reached their physical prime yet.

 

But here's the bigger problem. If we wrap up money to have a stellar linebacking crew, then we have to cut somewhere else. For instance, if we cut Nicks and Tuck....we'd have more cap space to indulge on a couple of great linebackers.

 

The cap forces teams to decide where to put their money. With Eli, JPP, Tuck, Nicks, Cruz, Kiwi, Webster, ROLLE, etc., we have limitations with what's left. We cut Canty and Boley, and let Phillips, Osi, Bennett, and Bradshaw walk because we needed cap space to sign our two receivers, draft picks, and keep harmony among those left....and we're still cash crunched to sign our remaining two draft picks and Cruz.

 

It's nice to put stars in every position, but the cap makes that impossible. Every single year we have to let good players go (just as the Cowboys had to let Conner go) and get creative to fill other spots that you can't have millions tied up in...it's a dilemma and perhaps one of the most valuable person in the Giants organization is that coke-bottle glassed nerdy accountant in the windowless office who massages the salaries and works magic with numbers to stay within the cap space limits, to keep just as many crucial players as possible. And with the way linebackers are less and less important as teams go aerial, it's hard to justify putting a big chunk of working money on that position and letting WR, CB, DE's walk.

 

If we usually use two linebackers and even only one on occasion, it seems silly to have a ton of money wrapped up in 3 world class LB's to focus on the run, rather than spend the money elsewhere.

[fishgutmartyr]

..

 

I don't think we need to "invest" heavily in linebackers. Without investing heavily, the Giants have:

 

Dan Conner (27 years old - the no. 1 middle linebacker in the 2008 draft - First Team All-American in 2007 and MVP of the senior bowl....the only reason the Cowboy's let him go was because they didn't have the cap space to keep him) He came to us cheap!

 

Mark Herzlich (25 years old considered the best LB in his class before getting cancer - First Team All-American in 2008 - he beat cancer and has returned to form) He came to us cheap!

 

Aaron Curry (27 years old and the no. 1 LB in the 2009 draft taken in first round with the no. 4 overall pick) He came to us cheap!

 

Keith Rivers (27 years old and 2007 All-American, taken in first round with the no. 9 overall pick in the 2008 draft) He didn't come cheap and costs the Giants 2.16 million per year...still a bargain

 

Jacquian Williams (24 years old, taken in the 6th round of the 2011 draft by the Giants) Many believe he is an up and comer

 

Spencer Paysinger (24 years old, UDFA - has put on 20 lbs of muscle in the off-season - showed flashes last year and might be better than Williams before it's through...he's definitely a keeper)

 

Jake Muasau (23 years old and has impressed the Giants with his speed and hitting. Georgia State's Most Valuable Defensive Player the last two years he played. He holds the school's record for tackles and interceptions - has ridiculous hair like Troy Polamalu) The Giants kept him on the practice squad last year and if the stories are true, the staff likes the kid a lot.

 

Etienne Sabino (22 years old, UDFA two year starter at Ohio State as MLB)Will be lucky to make practice squad

 

Kyle Bosworth (26 years old, 2-years exp in NFL - practice fodder)

 

Bleedin--I'm not picking on you, just stealing your list to make a point.

 

I'm going to play along and say that it's true that you only need one linebacker in this league for 3rd down. All right, it's 3rd and a little shy of 4 yards. Who on that list do you feel comfortable with being the island against the run? Did you pick a guy that can be relied on for 16+ games based on his history?

 

Midseason, a couple of DTs get injured (and defensive linemen are very likely to be injured). Who's picking up the slack when we're down to Marvin Austin?

 

I'm fine with going cheap with linebackers--but I'd rather do it with an excellent LB coach, and 2nd-3rd round draftees worthy of the draft position.

 

Sadly, we're SOL on both counts.

[Storm]

Not saying it has to be a first rounder but if you question why you would invest resources in the linebacker position... the answer lies in the backfield of the Redskins' Offense.

 

Exactly, it's not like the 11 safety look is tried and true. It's NEVER worked since Fewell got here.

[Herc]

2 superbowls without investing heavily in linebackers

[Herc]

kawika mitchell, chase blackburn, antonio pierce

 

regardless of d-coordinator we've been using this philosophy for a while. it's not even about schemes, it's about who is out on the field and the bottom line is that there are more passing packages out there per game now than there were 10 years ago.

 

now whether our defensive passing packages and schemes are sound is a whole other issue but personel-wise a defense typically needs a 4th corner and a 3rd DE more than a 3rd linebacker these days simply due to what the offenses are putting out there

[Herc]

Not saying it has to be a first rounder but if you question why you would invest resources in the linebacker position... the answer lies in the backfield of the Redskins' Offense.

 

that's a good point but that gimmick shit isn't sustainable imo and it's only really one team that we deal with.

[Storm]

that's a good point but that gimmick shit isn't sustainable imo and it's only really one team that we deal with.

 

It's not even just the gimmick shit, though. It's scrambling quarterbacks who run when no one is open and there's no pressure getting to him and bruisers like Alfred Morris.

[Tempest]

Yeah a major point people keep missing but don't let the facts get in the way of an opinion

 

2 superbowls without investing heavily in linebackers

[Storm]

Yeah a major point people keep missing but don't let the facts get in the way of an opinion

 

Sneaking into the playoffs and getting hot at the right time has nothing to do with having an effective/good defensive philosophy, though. I think that's the part you two are forgetting. Catching fire at the tail end of the year isn't really on the coaches, system, or scheme, it's more attributable to individual effort. I remember Corey Webster and even RW McQuarters being nasty good in 2007 playoffs. Aaron Ross even went to the next level in 2010 playoffs.

[fishgutmartyr]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/three-surprises-york-giants-otas-184200146.html

 

 

Jacquian Williams' Lingering Knee Ailment. Linebacker Jacquian Williams is entering this third season as a pro, and is currently penciled in as the new starting weakside linebacker, a spot that became available when the Giants released Michael Boley earlier this offseason in a salary cap saving move.

 

The problem, though, is that Williams, who last season missed time due to a PCL injury hasn't been able to do much on the field this spring. When asked about his absence, Williams, who opted to not have any surgery in the offseason, said that he's been trying to rest his knee so he's ready for the start of the season.

While that approach normally wouldn't create the need for a second thought, what is of concern is that why, nearly six months after the 2012 season ended, Williams is still bothered by his injury to where he would need to proceed with caution.

 

Moreover, if the knee is still an issue to where there is reluctance on the part of the player or the team's medical staff to turn him loose or the OTAs, might a more aggressive course of action be in the cards? Or has something new developed which has warranted the more cautious approach?

 

Williams and the Giants aren't saying much, so it will be interesting to see if the linebacker is ready to go for summer training camp, which starts on July 26, when the players report to the Timex Performance Center.

 

If Williams gets surgery now, you can scratch him off of the list.

 

Pierce was a big acquisition in free agency in 2005. We paid good money for that guy. We put up a pretty big sum for Arrington, too--fortunately for us, we had escapes in the contract. We also didn't get Boley on the cheap. I understand that the first two signings wasn't Reese so much as Accorsi--but you can't really make the argument that ignoring linebackers is standard operating procedure in the Coughlin era, either. So I don't know if there's a "defensive philosophy" involved in dumpster-diving for LBs; so much as an inability to develop the numerous draftees we've had over the years, and a hesitation to weaken other units by signing FAs beyond 1 year to compensate.

 

Kawika Mitchell had an excellent season for us. Possibly a career season-so it's not like we got into the SB in 2007 with a total absence of LB play. If Manning doesn't have what would be an MVP season in any other year but 2011 and carry us into the playoffs, the whole "winning superbowls without linebackers" wouldn't even be an argument.

 

Seriously, who is going to have Tuck's back when he inevitably starts playing hurt towards the end of the season? Who's starting weakside if Williams is out? Rivers, with his injury history?

 

I'm not suggesting that we should have drafted a linebacker this year (we can't seem to develop any, so a late rounder is a waste), but let's not kid ourselves about that unit, either. We need a ton of things to break our way on that defense just to be mediocre this year.

[Steitzenhaus]

If the changes we made on the line work out and Tuck shows he can still play we might be ok, at least from a run stopping standpoint. Hopefully Jenkins and Hankins can take on the blocks last years unit couldn't and allow our linebackers to make some plays before a back is 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. Fish is right though these guys aren't playmakers. Maybe one of them will come out and surprise us with a big season but it'd be nice to at least have some certainty and confidence there.

[Sephiroth]

now whether our defensive passing packages and schemes are sound is a whole other issue but personel-wise a defense typically needs a 4th corner and a 3rd DE more than a 3rd linebacker these days simply due to what the offenses are putting out there

 

This is true, however, we don't have ONE starting calibur linebacker on this team right now. Forget about a third servicable guy, I'd take one sercicable guy. As of right now, we don't even have a unit of has-beens, these guys are never-weres.

[fishgutmartyr]

If the changes we made on the line work out and Tuck shows he can still play we might be ok, at least from a run stopping standpoint. Hopefully Jenkins and Hankins can take on the blocks last years unit couldn't and allow our linebackers to make some plays before a back is 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. Fish is right though these guys aren't playmakers. Maybe one of them will come out and surprise us with a big season but it'd be nice to at least have some certainty and confidence there.

 

I like the defensive line picks--which is why I said this year instead of implying we're completely doomed. But the only DT returning that we know is worth a damn is Linval Joseph. Hankins looks like a monster; but he is a rookie, and he might take longer than a year to be a force. None of these guys have played together yet, and we're taking leaps of faith all over that side of the ball.

 

Do Akamura and Holsey continue to progress, or does Holsey regress as some 2nd year players do? Is Webster's year last year an abberation? Can a safety group consisting of Rolle, Hill, Sash, a dubious Thomas, and a rookie even compensate for the lack of a 3 down LB? Can Tuck play 16 games anymore? Is Austin going to show something other than suck? Which JPP shows up this year--the all-world player from 2011, or the guy that kept getting trapped inside on runs last year? Yikes. And these are the strengths of this defense--which absolutely have to do well to hide the apparent wasteland that is the linebacking corp.

 

Not all of those questions are going to be answered the way we want them to. We just have to hope enough of them, and the right combination do. And I'm rooting for Conner and Curry to show something--especially Curry, who sounds like he's wiped his own intestinal fluids from his eyes and is seeing daylight for the first time since he was drafted. But really--shut up and play.

 

I have hope--but with all these questions, and doubts about Fewell, it's about all I have at the moment.

[Nas]

2 superbowls without investing heavily in linebackers

 

Followed by a first round exit from the playoffs and missing the playoffs completely... and the regular season record wasn't superb...

 

That having been said I think the picture is not as rosy as Bleedin portrays it nor is it as bad as Jim/Fish make it... I contend that the common denominator in our defense is coaching... I pin it primarily on Fewel... he sucks. And whoever the LB coach is.

 

Out of the players Bleedin listed we can hope at least 2 will show up... I think Conner and Curry maybe those... I'm also hopeful Peysinger will shine. but again it comes down to coaching and our DC flat out sucks.

 

I refuse to think of Kiwi and Moore as LB... enough with that please. Kiwi is better at DE and Osi (thank god) bit the dust... and more needs to stick to that position and learn from the vets. I don't see Tuck recovering from... well age I guess...

[BleedinBlue]

Ever hear of the "Four Pronged Rankings" by Pete Prisco of CBS? To keep it really simple, he ranks teams by the 4 "power positions" that make or break a team. The 4 positions are QB (70%), Pass Rushers (10%), Left Tackles (10%), and Cornerbacks (10%)

 

His mathematical formula has the Giants ranked 5th among all NFL teams.

 

His reasoning is that the NFL is now a passing league and no one goes to the playoffs and SB without a top QB. He also believes that the LT protecting the QB is vital as is pass rushing to keep the other team playing on their heels, and cornerbacks to stop the long gains.

 

Regardless....a team has to work within cap space. They cannot load up on every position and thus, must decide which positions are the most important to the team's success and pay the big money to crucial players. It's what gives parity to teams in the NFL.

 

I don't entirely agree with Prisco's reasoning, but I do agree that the success of a team hangs on the QB. Without a good one...you ain't goin nowhere!

 

I agree with Fool (excuse me, I mean Fewell) that in this pass-happy league, linebackers are not nearly as critical to the teams success as are safeties and cornerbacks. However, Fewell has given us two seasons in a row of really sucky defensive strategies. It's not all his fault as injuries have take their toll as well as our opponents know exactly what the Giants are going to do on game day and strategize around it exploiting our weaknesses.

 

If we spend a large chunk of cash on a couple of linebackers....it will improve our run stopping defense, but it would just mean that we would have to cut somewhere else. It's a dilemma of every team.

[Nas]

The notion of this being a pass-happy league leading us to discount the importance of LBs is maddening... it's the very reason teams RAN on us... and they sure ran over us. Yes I understand we bolstered the DL position and I think this year's line will GREATLY outplay the line of Last Year..

 

Having said that I think the Giants have enough promising pieces that the team will do great if only 2 of those pieces play at acceptable levels. I think Curry and Conner are the front runners and I trust one of the youngsters JW or Peysinger or even Hertzlich will shine... just one of them need to... I'll take those odds.

[BleedinBlue]

The notion of this being a pass-happy league leading us to discount the importance of LBs is maddening... it's the very reason teams RAN on us... and they sure ran over us. Yes I understand we bolstered the DL position and I think this year's line will GREATLY outplay the line of Last Year..

 

Having said that I think the Giants have enough promising pieces that the team will do great if only 2 of those pieces play at acceptable levels. I think Curry and Conner are the front runners and I trust one of the youngsters JW or Peysinger or even Hertzlich will shine... just one of them need to... I'll take those odds.

 

I don't think the Giants simply discount the importance of LB's....if they did, they wouldn't have signed Rivers, Curry, and Conner. It's just that if you pay to have the best linebackers....you have to cut somewhere else. Do we cut at CB? Safety? TE's? O-line?

 

Like I said, it's a dilemma without a solution. And it's only going to get worse once we pay Nicks and Cruz the kind of money usually reserved for a top QB.

 

I believe that TC has settled on the idea that the Giants' future is in it's offense....especially if we sign both Nicks and Cruz. We have surrounded Eli with incredible options, and our defense suffers because of it. Personally, I'm far more worried about injuries than a lack of talent. Injuries are game changers for the season. If we can stay healthy, we'll have a great season. But that's a big "if".