The State of the Linebackers / DE's / Safeties

[BleedinBlue]

One of the reasons our defense sucked last year....our DE's getting half the normal sacks can be summed up in watching Philadelphia's OTA's where the coach is teaching the QB to get rid of the ball in 1.5 seconds. That's because the coach simply watched how to beat the Giants on tape and teams that dumped the ball quicker than the DE's can get loose could chip away at yards. Actually, that's how the Cowboys have beaten us time and time again....dumping off to Whitten who can lay out a typical linebacker after picking up 9 yards each time.

 

Offenses will constantly change to exploit the defensive strategy of a team. If they see a weakness, they will chip away at it all game long until it stops working for them. Once the "pistol" started being employed (as opposed to the "shotgun") teams simply made a quick dump over our d-line while our LB's were back for a longer pass. If they came up, they'd dump over our LB's. Then they discovered that our inside d-line was porous so they started running the ball up the gut on us.

 

I don't think the Giants front office and TC and coaches are unaware of any of this. They aren't as stupid as fans make them out to be. It would be wonderful to have lightning fast, huge LB's that defied human ability....but again, there's only a very small handful of great LB's and they were never available to us because of our draft order. We have three LB's on our staff that were number one draft pics - the no.4 overall, the no. 9 overall, and the no. 11 overall. Yeah, they've disappointed their previous teams and in some cases been hurt. But it's not like the Giants are completely ignoring the situation.

 

Damontre Moore played 3 years at linebacker before they switched him to DE as a senior. Cooper Taylor played linebacker and safety in college. And considering where we drafted, we were lucky to get those two guys. I don't think it escapes Reese and TC that these guys have as much (or more) experience as linebackers as they do the position they are tagged with in the draft.

[Herc]

Correct.

 

And when other teams look over the line, see 6 defensive backs and one random mediocre linebacker, watch them run the ball down the Giants throat.

 

that's hard to do when they have 4 wr's split out and maybe 1 rb in the backfield because that's what it takes for the giants to throw a package like that out there

[Herc]

you guys are using an exception to prove a rule. you're talking about one unsustainable gimmick offense. that offense will only inch closer and closer to a traditional pro style offense as griffin continues to get hurt and/or age. alf morris lit up just about everyone he played against last year despite what linebackers those opposing defenses had. the guy's a load no matter what but most teams' offenses are very different than this one and don't line up with 4 players in the backfield

 

running qbs eventually become grounded for a reason. mcnabb gave us fits when he was young too but the eagles adjusted their offense way before any teams adjusted their defensive player personnel strategy to defend against him. they couldn't keep it up with vick either.

[JMFP]

One of the reasons our defense sucked last year....our DE's getting half the normal sacks can be summed up in watching Philadelphia's OTA's where the coach is teaching the QB to get rid of the ball in 1.5 seconds. That's because the coach simply watched how to beat the Giants on tape and teams that dumped the ball quicker than the DE's can get loose could chip away at yards. Actually, that's how the Cowboys have beaten us time and time again....dumping off to Whitten who can lay out a typical linebacker after picking up 9 yards each time.

 

Offenses will constantly change to exploit the defensive strategy of a team. If they see a weakness, they will chip away at it all game long until it stops working for them. Once the "pistol" started being employed (as opposed to the "shotgun") teams simply made a quick dump over our d-line while our LB's were back for a longer pass. If they came up, they'd dump over our LB's. Then they discovered that our inside d-line was porous so they started running the ball up the gut on us.

 

I don't think the Giants front office and TC and coaches are unaware of any of this. They aren't as stupid as fans make them out to be. It would be wonderful to have lightning fast, huge LB's that defied human ability....but again, there's only a very small handful of great LB's and they were never available to us because of our draft order. We have three LB's on our staff that were number one draft pics - the no.4 overall, the no. 9 overall, and the no. 11 overall. Yeah, they've disappointed their previous teams and in some cases been hurt. But it's not like the Giants are completely ignoring the situation.

 

Damontre Moore played 3 years at linebacker before they switched him to DE as a senior. Cooper Taylor played linebacker and safety in college. And considering where we drafted, we were lucky to get those two guys. I don't think it escapes Reese and TC that these guys have as much (or more) experience as linebackers as they do the position they are tagged with in the draft.

 

That's why I think the future of the NFL is a 3-4 scheme featuring LBs that can run and cover.

 

Like I said, they were out there to be drafted. The Giants had a perfect chance to land one in Khaseem Greene, but instead spent a 4th and a 6th on a backup QB.

[Nas]

That's why I think the future of the NFL is a 3-4 scheme featuring LBs that can run and cover.

 

Like I said, they were out there to be drafted. The Giants had a perfect chance to land one in Khaseem Greene, but instead spent a 4th and a 6th on a backup QB.

 

Yep... but let's face it... we NEEd a back up QB. Carr ain't it. And maybe the Giants didn't see in Greene what some see... and we have Curry. We need a better DC & LB coach.

[BleedinBlue]

That's why I think the future of the NFL is a 3-4 scheme featuring LBs that can run and cover.

 

Like I said, they were out there to be drafted. The Giants had a perfect chance to land one in Khaseem Greene, but instead spent a 4th and a 6th on a backup QB.

 

It goes back and forth. As soon as the 3-4 comes back like in the 80's and 90's, teams plan offenses around it.

 

As far as Greene goes...he shouldn't be christened the next LT until he's proven himself. He's a converted safety with flaws.

 

From NFL Scout: "Must stay healthy this season after recovering from a broken right ankle in the bowl game. Has a safety build, possessing average height and thinner lower body. Not the strongest or most physical tackler, most likely to dive towards ball carriers' feet than bring real impact. Overruns plays and gets lost in trash inside and lacks strength to take on blocks between the tackles. Hustle is hot and cold, will watch plays to opposite sideline instead of trying to get the angle to prevent the big play. Hands for the interception are only adequate, as he does not always make the moderately difficult catch away from his frame".

 

Not the rosiest summary.

 

Thing is, there is a shortage of elite LB's and teams with worse records get first pickens on draft day. And it's still a crapshoot. For every LB that turns into a stud, dozens fail to reach that status. I don't know that burning late draft picks on potential draft picks is any better than taking 3 LB's in free agency that were early first round draft picks just a few years ago, but haven't fit a team's system. We have LB's that were no. 4 overall, no. 9 overall, and no. 11 overall...and that doesn't include Conners who was the no. 1 MLB in the 2008 draft.

 

We've tried the drafting LB's in the 3rd-7th rounds and haven't hit on a real stud yet. We tabbed Greg Jones (3rd) and Jacquin Williams (6th) in the 2011 draft....and Phillip Dillard (3rd) and Adrian Tracy (6th) in the 2010 draft...Clint Sintim (2nd) and Brian Kehl (4th) and Jonathan Goff (5th) in 2008....Zack DeOssi in 2007...Gerris Wilkinson in 2006, etc.

 

We've tried to draft LB's in the past (given our draft position) and the only one still on the team is Williams....and he's not practicing because of a knee issue that he still might have to have surgery on. Of course, we still have DeOssie who's listed as a LB, but has never played anything other than long snapper for us.

 

As for me....I don't want to load up with LB's taken after round 1. It just hasn't worked out all the well for us.

[Tempest]

Its not an unsupported idea of this being a pass happy league, its a fact that can't even be argued. The NFL is dominated by the passing game and the rule book has been revised to promote the passing game. The reason why teams ran all over us was because our defensive line couldn't stop them like they should have and usually do since Coughlin took over.

 

Injuries, players lost to free agency, younger players not stepping up and rookies forced to start earlier than usual contributed to our problems stopping the run. I try very hard not to simply laugh at people when they say oh our defense sucked because we didn't get as many sacks this season. How do you get that many sacks if you are giving up over five yards on first down?

[JMFP]

Yep... but let's face it... we NEEd a back up QB. Carr ain't it. And maybe the Giants didn't see in Greene what some see... and we have Curry. We need a better DC & LB coach.

 

We need a backup QB sometime in 2016.

 

Reese shot early....about 3 years early.

[JMFP]

Its not an unsupported idea of this being a pass happy league, its a fact that can't even be argued. The NFL is dominated by the passing game and the rule book has been revised to promote the passing game. The reason why teams ran all over us was because our defensive line couldn't stop them like they should have and usually do since Coughlin took over.

 

Injuries, players lost to free agency, younger players not stepping up and rookies forced to start earlier than usual contributed to our problems stopping the run. I try very hard not to simply laugh at people when they say oh our defense sucked because we didn't get as many sacks this season. How do you get that many sacks if you are giving up over five yards on first down?

 

Teams ran over us, around us, and through us....it wasn't all on the defensive line. The primary responsibility of linebackers is to stop the running game, and by that metric, they sucked.

 

This will continue until the Giants either draft defensive lineman that can run as fast as linebackers, or safeties that can hit as hard as linebackers......I'm hoping that was the thought behind Moore and Taylor, respectively.

[Nas]

We need a backup QB sometime in 2016.

 

Reese shot early....about 3 years early.

 

Carr isn't it... anytime he's been on the field he's been atrocious.... And we got Curry... which by all accounts has a better chance of making an impact than ANY 3rd round and above rookie ever will.

[fishgutmartyr]

i mention these guys because we made due with less than great players in that layer of D.

 

As for our defense during those two superbowl runs, our 2007 season is pretty much known for our pass defense (that was shored up by drafting extra pass rushers that people thought were excessive instead of linebackers) and our D during the 2011 run was pretty great too. We shut out atlanta and held two great D's in green bay and new england in check

 

You're arguing with the wrong guy--I'm fine with maybe one or two very good linebackers and competent ones for the rest. My problem is I don't think we have that, or even something approaching it. Unless these guys prove otherwise, and there isn't a whole lot in their histories that would indicate that.

 

The 2007 team was known for its pass rush. On the other hand, we had decent seasons from our linebackers as well.

 

And yes, the 2011 defense did decide to show up during the playoffs. But they tried their hardest to miss them, too. A 9-7 record with the QB throwing for nearly 5000 yards is pretty damning.

 

The dominant DE 4-3 is a great defense against the Tom Brady-type QB, but with speedy QBs (RG3, Kaepernick, Wilson, etc), athletic tight ends, pass-catching RBs (McCoy), the best defense is a 3-4.

 

Colleges are now producing the linebackers to defend against these players.....the guys coming out of college were once safeties that converted to linebacker as they kept getting bigger and stronger.

 

Either Moore and Cooper Taylor will play alot of hybrid LB, and/or Curry sheds his bust label, and/or last year's linebackers suddenly improve alot.

 

If not, this defense will continue to get abused. Defensive lineman cannot deal with the speed that is coming out of today's NFL offenses.

 

We've been running the 4-3 for almost 20 years now. In that time, we've beaten our share of mobile QBs. It isn't really the scheme that bothers me--it's the OVER reliance on the defensive line. We expect them to compensate for utter incompetence in the linebacking corp. (Chase Blackburn was our best linebacker last year. I hate to be down on him, because I do respect him--but there's no WAY he should be leading linebackers in tackles, let alone an NFL team.)

 

That compensating might work for the first half of a season, but what happens when those guys start wearing down in the second half? Or like last year, they never get it together? We've gotten so little from the draft that there's nothing to cover the dline's wear and tear by the squad directly behind them--I don't know how many years this has to be demonstrated before the front office and coaches pick up on it.

 

Who knows? Maybe Rivers, Conner, and Williams stay healthy. Maybe Curry actually proves something. Maybe Paysinger and Herzlich show something outside of special teams. But that's a whole bunch of maybes.

 

I'm just looking for a few guys that can do their assignments respectably for 16 games.

 

And a 3-4 with this group would have me eyeballing ropes and rafters all season long.

[JMFP]

You're arguing with the wrong guy--I'm fine with maybe one or two very good linebackers and competent ones for the rest. My problem is I don't think we have that, or even something approaching it. Unless these guys prove otherwise, and there isn't a whole lot in their histories that would indicate that.

 

The 2007 team was known for its pass rush. On the other hand, we had decent seasons from our linebackers as well.

 

And yes, the 2011 defense did decide to show up during the playoffs. But they tried their hardest to miss them, too. A 9-7 record with the QB throwing for nearly 5000 yards is pretty damning.

 

 

 

We've been running the 4-3 for almost 20 years now. In that time, we've beaten our share of mobile QBs. It isn't really the scheme that bothers me--it's the OVER reliance on the defensive line. We expect them to compensate for utter incompetence in the linebacking corp. (Chase Blackburn was our best linebacker last year. I hate to be down on him, because I do respect him--but there's no WAY he should be leading linebackers in tackles, let alone an NFL team.)

 

That compensating might work for the first half of a season, but what happens when those guys start wearing down in the second half? Or like last year, they never get it together? We've gotten so little from the draft that there's nothing to cover the dline's wear and tear by the squad directly behind them--I don't know how many years this has to be demonstrated before the front office and coaches pick up on it.

 

Who knows? Maybe Rivers, Conner, and Williams stay healthy. Maybe Curry actually proves something. Maybe Paysinger and Herzlich show something outside of special teams. But that's a whole bunch of maybes.

 

I'm just looking for a few guys that can do their assignments respectably for 16 games.

 

And a 3-4 with this group would have me eyeballing ropes and rafters all season long.

 

I think you make very good points.

 

I'm happy that the Giants have invested in the defensive line, but I agree, it seems all of our eggs are in that basket.....if the ball gets beyond the line of scrimmage, the Giants have issues.

[Herc]

You're arguing with the wrong guy--I'm fine with maybe one or two very good linebackers and competent ones for the rest. My problem is I don't think we have that, or even something approaching it. Unless these guys prove otherwise, and there isn't a whole lot in their histories that would indicate that.

 

The 2007 team was known for its pass rush. On the other hand, we had decent seasons from our linebackers as well.

 

And yes, the 2011 defense did decide to show up during the playoffs. But they tried their hardest to miss them, too. A 9-7 record with the QB throwing for nearly 5000 yards is pretty damning.

 

 

 

 

i agree, i don't think we do either and that's exactly what i want in our linebacker group too. while i agree with our philosophy on linebackers not being a priority and taking cheap, low risk shots (cheap free agent signings, low round picks) our execution of that part of the plan has been poor. whether reese can't find the diamond in the rough or, as you've pointed out before, the coaching staff just can't properly develop them isn't something i can speak to but I just don't want to be spending 1st round picks on them. in the salary cap age something has to give when it comes to our resources and i think that should be the linebacker position

[Allstarjim]

I actually think the future of the NFL defensively is one without a singular base defense. Teams will switch from 3-4 to 4-3 as well as the nickel and dime packages, with certain players that are in both, as well as specialists that have their own packages. Versatility will be key, for example, a guy like Damontre Moore has the potential to be a stand up lber in a 3-4 or come off the edge in a 4-3. I also think u are already seeing this with some teams like the Patriots.

[fishgutmartyr]

i agree, i don't think we do either and that's exactly what i want in our linebacker group too. while i agree with our philosophy on linebackers not being a priority and taking cheap, low risk shots (cheap free agent signings, low round picks) our execution of that part of the plan has been poor. whether reese can't find the diamond in the rough or, as you've pointed out before, the coaching staff just can't properly develop them isn't something i can speak to but I just don't want to be spending 1st round picks on them. in the salary cap age something has to give when it comes to our resources and i think that should be the linebacker position

 

I tend to think it's coaching staff--on a whole, the free agent LBs we've signed have given respectable returns for what we went for: Mitchell, Pierce, Boley (even if he was erratic), and Rivers when he was able to stay on the field all contributed. So it's not like the front office has lost their eye for linebacking talent.

 

On the other hand, none of those guys showed much in the way of improvement, either. That's particularly upsetting with Boley, because he was young enough when we got him that he probably shouldn't have been at his peak. And yet, it seemed as if he spent his time here at a plateau.

 

As far as home-grown players are concerned, out of all of them, the only real successes, or rather, near-successes were Kiwi, Blackburn, and Goff. Goff was very unfortunate because of the injury. But notice all of those guys were here before the current linebacking coaches. And of all the potential LBs we acquired in 2010-2011, not one of them has really risen to the occasion.

[BleedinBlue]

I actually think the future of the NFL defensively is one without a singular base defense. Teams will switch from 3-4 to 4-3 as well as the nickel and dime packages, with certain players that are in both, as well as specialists that have their own packages. Versatility will be key, for example, a guy like Damontre Moore has the potential to be a stand up lber in a 3-4 or come off the edge in a 4-3. I also think u are already seeing this with some teams like the Patriots.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, although I don't see the Giants playing a 3-4 much unless TC thinks Joseph, Hankins, and Rogers can do the job on the front line. They are certainly big enough to make a huge wall.

 

My bet is we'll see a lot of nickel packages with 2 LB's and a "joker", with the joker being either Moore or Taylor. On occasion I can see both Moore and Taylor playing a double joker set with just one LB near the line.

 

The NFL has gotten so gimmicky that it's hard to go with one system like the old days in which a team simply put the biggest and strongest person at each position and may the strongest, meanest player win the individual battle. Today it's all about speed, passing, and throwing strange sets at the opposition to try and confuse the opponent. And the Giants should try one of the tried and true plays that have burned them over and over, which is to have the QB call two plays so that there's no huddle for the second play and no time for the defense to adjust. It kills me to watch a team pull it on us and frustrates the daylights out of me that we don't do it back. It might be gimmicky, but it works a lot of the time.

 

Defenses need to be quick to adjust and having a MLB that can use his brain to get the rest of his players in sync is imperative. I always threw fits about the Giants not compensating for the obvious....like after Whitten makes his 6th catch in the first half and already has 90 yards, and the Giants just can't seem to figure out that Romo is going to go to Whitten the rest of the game and yet everytime he does, our defense looks shocked because they are out of position. Man that makes me get all riled.

[Tempest]

Umm no it is the primary responsibility of the defensive line to stop the RB's in a 4-3 defense. They are not there to just to dance with the offensive line, their job is to stop the run and go after the QB. Our linebacker's primary responsibility and one they are not very good at is to stop the short passing game, sealing off the edges. Other teams running all over us was a failure that sits entirely on the defensive line.

 

Teams ran over us, around us, and through us....it wasn't all on the defensive line. The primary responsibility of linebackers is to stop the running game, and by that metric, they sucked.

 

This will continue until the Giants either draft defensive lineman that can run as fast as linebackers, or safeties that can hit as hard as linebackers......I'm hoping that was the thought behind Moore and Taylor, respectively.

[JMFP]

Umm no it is the primary responsibility of the defensive line to stop the RB's in a 4-3 defense. They are not there to just to dance with the offensive line, their job is to stop the run and go after the QB. Our linebacker's primary responsibility and one they are not very good at is to stop the short passing game, sealing off the edges. Other teams running all over us was a failure that sits entirely on the defensive line.

 

I'm not talking about the defensive line. I'm talking about the linebackers, and yes, their primary responsibility is to defend against the run.

 

For example, when the Post, Daily News, etc., grades out the linebackers, the first stat line they always talk about is the opponent's running game.

[BleedinBlue]

ESPN claims that Herzlich is on fire and that the starting linebackers so far appear to be Rivers, Herzlich, and Paysinger. Of course, Williams isn't working out right now because of his knee.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/26041/herzlich-among-early-leaders-in-lb-stakes

 

[JMFP]

ESPN claims that Herzlich is on fire and that the starting linebackers so far appear to be Rivers, Herzlich, and Paysinger. Of course, Williams isn't working out right now because of his knee.

 

http://espn.go.com/b...rs-in-lb-stakes

 

I hope they're right. We really need someone to step up bigtime.

[Nas]

I hope they're right. We really need someone to step up bigtime.

 

We have all those pieces in place... we know the talent is there... we know their heads is in the right place... we know the motivation is there... I sense a spark... I can totally see where the young guys Hertz, Peysing, and Williams can be really good... and I can see where Curry and Rivers can make this group a very strong one.