The State of the Linebackers / DE's / Safeties

[fishgutmartyr]

Ever hear of the "Four Pronged Rankings" by Pete Prisco of CBS? To keep it really simple, he ranks teams by the 4 "power positions" that make or break a team. The 4 positions are QB (70%), Pass Rushers (10%), Left Tackles (10%), and Cornerbacks (10%)

 

His mathematical formula has the Giants ranked 5th among all NFL teams.

 

His reasoning is that the NFL is now a passing league and no one goes to the playoffs and SB without a top QB. He also believes that the LT protecting the QB is vital as is pass rushing to keep the other team playing on their heels, and cornerbacks to stop the long gains.

 

Regardless....a team has to work within cap space. They cannot load up on every position and thus, must decide which positions are the most important to the team's success and pay the big money to crucial players. It's what gives parity to teams in the NFL.

 

I don't entirely agree with Prisco's reasoning, but I do agree that the success of a team hangs on the QB. Without a good one...you ain't goin nowhere!

 

I agree with Fool (excuse me, I mean Fewell) that in this pass-happy league, linebackers are not nearly as critical to the teams success as are safeties and cornerbacks. However, Fewell has given us two seasons in a row of really sucky defensive strategies. It's not all his fault as injuries have take their toll as well as our opponents know exactly what the Giants are going to do on game day and strategize around it exploiting our weaknesses.

 

If we spend a large chunk of cash on a couple of linebackers....it will improve our run stopping defense, but it would just mean that we would have to cut somewhere else. It's a dilemma of every team.

 

We can be 5th with just Manning, Beatty, and JPP. That doesn't mean our defense is anything close to settled. I really doubt the validity of that argument anyway.

 

And I don't want to spend oodles of cash on linebackers--I'm interested in spending oodles of cash on a linebackers coach that can develop players we draft. THAT's what is killing us on that squad--not picking up free agents. All the guys we've drafted over the last few years, and the only guy that approached starting other than Blackburn was Jonathan Goff? (and, of course, his knee blew out)

 

I'm interested in getting starters out of the draft, and then being able to say goodbye if free agency makes it hard to keep them, because there's another guy in the pipeline. In my opinion, that's the way to maintain low cost for a position that isn't as essential as other areas: infrastructure.

 

I want a Mike Pope or Robert Nunn for a linebacker coach. Then we wouldn't need to sign a Carlos Dansby type to a ridiculous contract.

[BleedinBlue]

We can be 5th with just Manning, Beatty, and JPP. That doesn't mean our defense is anything close to settled. I really doubt the validity of that argument anyway.

 

And I don't want to spend oodles of cash on linebackers--I'm interested in spending oodles of cash on a linebackers coach that can develop players we draft. THAT's what is killing us on that squad--not picking up free agents. All the guys we've drafted over the last few years, and the only guy that approached starting other than Blackburn was Jonathan Goff? (and, of course, his knee blew out)

 

I'm interested in getting starters out of the draft, and then being able to say goodbye if free agency makes it hard to keep them, because there's another guy in the pipeline. In my opinion, that's the way to maintain low cost for a position that isn't as essential as other areas: infrastructure.

 

I want a Mike Pope or Robert Nunn for a linebacker coach. Then we wouldn't need to sign a Carlos Dansby type to a ridiculous contract.

 

Jim Herriman is our linebacker coach and his resume isn't exactly stellar...3 years with the New York Jets as coach of their linebackers ...before that, various college coaching roles.

 

I agree that if there is a linebacker coach guru out there, we should pay whatever it takes to get him on board. Problem is though, that Fewell actually still calls the shots for whatever defensive players are on the field and where they're going to play... and he's in over his head as far as I'm concerned. What we really need, is a world class defensive coordinator putting together schemes that actually work.

 

Our defense the last two years was all-encompassing, not just poor linebacking play. Our line sucked, pass rushing decreased, CB's getting burned with Webster seemingly losing his edge. Add to that some of the worst ST play and the Giants have a lot of room for improvement. As far as offense goes, we are more than set.

[NeMesiS]

Jim Herriman is our linebacker coach and his resume isn't exactly stellar...3 years with the New York Jets as coach of their linebackers ...before that, various college coaching roles.

 

I agree that if there is a linebacker coach guru out there, we should pay whatever it takes to get him on board. Problem is though, that Fewell actually still calls the shots for whatever defensive players are on the field and where they're going to play... and he's in over his head as far as I'm concerned. What we really need, is a world class defensive coordinator putting together schemes that actually work.

 

Our defense the last two years was all-encompassing, not just poor linebacking play. Our line sucked, pass rushing decreased, CB's getting burned with Webster seemingly losing his edge. Add to that some of the worst ST play and the Giants have a lot of room for improvement. As far as offense goes, we are more than set.

 

What happened to Jesse Armstead?

[fishgutmartyr]

Jim Herriman is our linebacker coach and his resume isn't exactly stellar...3 years with the New York Jets as coach of their linebackers ...before that, various college coaching roles.

 

I agree that if there is a linebacker coach guru out there, we should pay whatever it takes to get him on board. Problem is though, that Fewell actually still calls the shots for whatever defensive players are on the field and where they're going to play... and he's in over his head as far as I'm concerned. What we really need, is a world class defensive coordinator putting together schemes that actually work.

 

Our defense the last two years was all-encompassing, not just poor linebacking play. Our line sucked, pass rushing decreased, CB's getting burned with Webster seemingly losing his edge. Add to that some of the worst ST play and the Giants have a lot of room for improvement. As far as offense goes, we are more than set.

 

If you're waiting for an argument about this post from me, you might as well grab a nap. Couldn't agree more.

 

I've never said I wanted 80's-level linebackers. I simply want middle of the road results, so our dline doesn't have to be completely healthy and all-world for every game. On paper, I think we are relying far too much on the dline picking up the linebackers' slack.

 

If the dline (and backfield) can't cover the deficiencies, then we have to hope for far too many Eli 4th-quarter 38-35 specials. I fear the snowballing.

[BleedinBlue]

A perfect article on the state of our linebackers and why there is so much love for the good old days of LT, Carson, etc.

 

http://www.giants101...-wrecking-crew/

 

 

 

New York Giants Linebacker Love: Looking Back on the Crunch Bunch, Big Blue Wrecking Crew

June 1st, 2013 at 1:20 PM

By Jen Polashock

 

For months (well, at least this calendar year), there has been heavy discussion about the New York Giants' linebackers corps and the speculation about the current open competition at the position. Somehow, debates always rewind to years when that second level of defense was what loaded the stands and brought Big Blue Faithful to their feet (to the dismay of those who prefer to "sit" during games, pssh). Ever really wonder why?

 

Linebackers were the pile-driving, injury-causing, fear-instilling players in blue starting with the days of Mike-backer, Sam Huff. After a bit of a defensive dearth and offensive resurgence, the time came for the defensive unit to gain back their dreaded signatures. "The Crunch Bunch" (Harry Carson, Lawrence Taylor, Brad Van Pelt, and Brian Kelly) eventually gave way to the "Big Blue Wrecking Crew" with the likes of a more feared corps headed by ILB Harry Carson, Gary Reasons, Lawrence Taylor, OLB Carl Banks and Pepper Johnson. As years pass, usually only one 'backer became "the guy" in those times, it was Jesse Armstead, and later on MLB Antonio Pierce.

 

Those early to mid-80's linebacker groups set a standard for the G-Men fanatics. Many quarterbacks as well as coaches can tell you to this day.

 

The Giants drove me crazy. They gave me the most fits. They were the opposite of Buddy Ryan's Bears defense. They played that soft two-deep zone that didn't allow any big plays. You had to earn everything you got against the Giants", was Washington Redskins' head coach Joe Gibbs' way of describing the Big Blue Wrecking Crew run by defensive coordinator Bill Belichick under head coach Bill Parcells.

 

What was nice for those guys playing in front of them (not that defensive linemen by the likes of George Martin, Jim Burt, and Leonard Marshall, and Eric Howard were slouches by any means!), but many "Throwback Thursday" and "Flashback Friday" memories are brought back by the simple fact that while most signal-callers were on the lookout for blue play-making linebackers, that was when the front three (or four) were deemed okay to let go. Ask San Francisco 49er quarterback Joe Montana who he was more worried about on January 20, 1991 - LB Lawrence Taylor or DE Leonard Marshall (or Jim Burt on an earlier date). Ask former Philadelphia Eagles QB Ron Jaworski who he still has nightmares about facing. Shoot, even former 'skins passer-turned commentator Joe Theismann has stopped answering queries on an infamous hit and career-ending injury.

 

A certain reign of terror was always on schedule when another NFL team was to face the Giants and it was primarily due to a crew of players that could rarely be stopped or accounted for. Now ya' understand why there's a certain calling (more like demand) during free agency and the NFL Draft? Problem is the ever-changing game rules would not allow for the Crunch Bunch, let alone the BBWC to make a comeback (YouTube some of these throwback hits, starting with the following).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lFIqLIZZ2U&feature=player_embedded

 

Penalties, anyone?

[Nas]

Demanding a LB who can cover and play the run is not the same as asking for a "crushing LB"... which is what this article is about... ok it's early June... we need something to read... I get it. Nonetheless I think what we have today in terms of LB is better than we had last year.

[BleedinBlue]

Demanding a LB who can cover and play the run is not the same as asking for a "crushing LB"... which is what this article is about... ok it's early June... we need something to read... I get it. Nonetheless I think what we have today in terms of LB is better than we had last year.

 

Actually, a lot of old timers remember the glory days of Giants linebackers that dominated games. I feel that is the reason some people will never be happy until we return to the 3-4 defense with killer linebackers like we had in the 80's. The point of the article is to remind people that it's never going to happen again. Rules have changed dramatically to stop injuries and hard hits. Heck, running backs can't even put their heads down anymore or they lose the yards they gained and lose another 15 yards on top of it, just for doing nothing more than running the way RB's have run for a hundred years in the game.

 

I'm still of the camp that our problem last year was the defensive line and Fewell's strategy. If the coach is outplayed/outsmarted and linebackers are in position where the defensive coordinator wants them....it takes world class athletes dedicated to the position of linebacker to make up for wrong shots called from the coach or a defensive line that couldn't stop gramps in a wheelchair. The linebacker problem will take care of itself with a better d-line and smarter defensive play calling.

[Storm]

Actually, a lot of old timers remember the glory days of Giants linebackers that dominated games. I feel that is the reason some people will never be happy until we return to the 3-4 defense with killer linebackers like we had in the 80's. The point of the article is to remind people that it's never going to happen again. Rules have changed dramatically to stop injuries and hard hits. Heck, running backs can't even put their heads down anymore or they lose the yards they gained and lose another 15 yards on top of it, just for doing nothing more than running the way RB's have run for a hundred years in the game.

 

I'm still of the camp that our problem last year was the defensive line and Fewell's strategy. If the coach is outplayed/outsmarted and linebackers are in position where the defensive coordinator wants them....it takes world class athletes dedicated to the position of linebacker to make up for wrong shots called from the coach or a defensive line that couldn't stop gramps in a wheelchair. The linebacker problem will take care of itself with a better d-line and smarter defensive play calling.

 

Sorry, but Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Courtney Upshaw, Danell Ellerbe, and even Paul Kruger proved just last year you can have the best linebacker crew in the league and still 1. win the Super Bowl and 2. Still utilize a 3-4.

 

The Steelers and 49ers have apparently not gotten the memo, either.

[BleedinBlue]

 

 

Sorry, but Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Courtney Upshaw, Danell Ellerbe, and even Paul Kruger proved just last year you can have the best linebacker crew in the league and still 1. win the Super Bowl and 2. Still utilize a 3-4.

 

The Steelers and 49ers have apparently not gotten the memo, either.

 

With the exception of Ellerbe...these guys all play in the 3-4 defense. And Ellerbe isn't exactly carrying the Dolphins to perennial playoffs and Super Bowl threats.

 

It takes a long time to build a team around the coaches strategy. TC has built the team around the 4-3 and has invested heavily in DE's to rush the passer. Teams like Baltimore invested heavily in LB's to rush the passer and it took them years to get where they are.

 

If we go back to the 3-4, then we get rid of TC....and start drafting LB's, cutting our DE's, and in 5 or 6 years, we'll be like the Ravens with a star studded linebacking crew, no DE's worth a damn....and running the 3-4 like we did two decades ago. Ain't gonna happen. Too much invested in our current style of play in which we emphasize DE's over LB's to get to the passer.

 

But yeah...we could copy Baltimore. But why? It would take years of gutting this team and starting over.

[fishgutmartyr]

This is getting to a pet-peeve of mine: Van Pelt, Carson, and Kelly started off in a 4-3 defense and did quite well within it. Just because a team has a 4-3 doesn't mean that the linebackers have to suck. We didn't switch to a 3-4 and then get linebackers, we had linebackers and switched schemes to get more of them on the field. Particularly since we had lost Mendenhall, Gregory, and Archer.

 

The last thing I'd want to do with the players we have is switch to a 3-4.

 

But even if the players were more 3-4 friendly, I'd highly doubt we'd have to get rid of TC--he's more of an offensive-minded coach to begin with. Besides, we've been running 4-3 since before Fassel (with the rise of guys like Hamilton and Strahan), so I would hardly label this TC's defense.

[Storm]

With the exception of Ellerbe...these guys all play in the 3-4 defense. And Ellerbe isn't exactly carrying the Dolphins to perennial playoffs and Super Bowl threats.

 

It takes a long time to build a team around the coaches strategy. TC has built the team around the 4-3 and has invested heavily in DE's to rush the passer. Teams like Baltimore invested heavily in LB's to rush the passer and it took them years to get where they are.

 

If we go back to the 3-4, then we get rid of TC....and start drafting LB's, cutting our DE's, and in 5 or 6 years, we'll be like the Ravens with a star studded linebacking crew, no DE's worth a damn....and running the 3-4 like we did two decades ago. Ain't gonna happen. Too much invested in our current style of play in which we emphasize DE's over LB's to get to the passer.

 

But yeah...we could copy Baltimore. But why? It would take years of gutting this team and starting over.

 

Your point, and the point of the article was that you can't use a 3-4 in today's NFL and that having good linebackers doesn't make sense when teams just throw over the top. Just last year, the two Super Bowl teams had THE BEST LINEBACKERS IN THE NFL. How does that not compute? The argument is null and void. You need good linebackers, just like you need talent in the secondary and on the defensive line.

 

I'm not talking about gutting the team and switching to a 3-4, I'm presenting a logical argument, with clear evidence from just last year, that linebackers are still very, very important to the success of the defense as a whole. Ellerbe, while he may be a Dolphin now, was also on that Ravens team, by the way. They were stacked at the position. Outside of Haloti Ngata and Arthur Jones, the Ravens didn't exactly have depth on their defensive line. Corey Graham and Bernard Pollard and an aged Ed Reed in the secondary....no slouches, but also far from the best in the league (they were 17th against the pass). Come on, you saw what happened when that team got healthy, especially at linebacker.

 

The presented argument and article are flawed at best.

[BleedinBlue]

Your point, and the point of the article was that you can't use a 3-4 in today's NFL and that having good linebackers doesn't make sense when teams just throw over the top. Just last year, the two Super Bowl teams had THE BEST LINEBACKERS IN THE NFL. How does that not compute? The argument is null and void. You need good linebackers, just like you need talent in the secondary and on the defensive line.

 

I'm not talking about gutting the team and switching to a 3-4, I'm presenting a logical argument, with clear evidence from just last year, that linebackers are still very, very important to the success of the defense as a whole. Ellerbe, while he may be a Dolphin now, was also on that Ravens team, by the way. They were stacked at the position. Outside of Haloti Ngata and Arthur Jones, the Ravens didn't exactly have depth on their defensive line. Corey Graham and Bernard Pollard and an aged Ed Reed in the secondary....no slouches, but also far from the best in the league (they were 17th against the pass). Come on, you saw what happened when that team got healthy, especially at linebacker.

 

The presented argument and article are flawed at best.

 

That's not the point of the article (i.e., "you can't use a 3-4 in today's NFL"). That's ludicrous. The Ravens are Super Bowl champs and they are the quintessential example of the 3-4. It's true that they do line up on occasion in the 4-3, and Terrell Suggs can switch to DE. But they are a 3-4 defensive team...as are the Niners, the Steelers, Eagles, etc. So..."yeah, you can use a 3-4 in today's NFL". It happens every week during the season.

 

Regardless, the teams right now that use the 3-4 (and some are very good) are:

 

Arizona Cardinals

Baltimore Ravens

Cleveland Browns

Green Bay Packers

Houston Texans

Indianapolis Colts

Kansas City Chiefs

New Orleans Saints

New York Jets

Pittsburgh Steelers

Philadelphia Eagles

San Diego Chargers

San Francisco 49ers

Washington Redskins

 

It would also include the Dallas Cowboys, but they are switching to the 4-3 this coming season with their new defensive coordinator after dumping Rob Ryan.

 

Of course the Ravens have great linebackers. That's what they've been focusing on, paying for, and building on for many years - so they have a top notch linebacking corps to use in their pass rushing. We on the other hand, have invested for years now in DE's for our pass rushing because we use the 4-3. Hence the reason I commented on earlier that it will be interesting to see just how great DaMarcus Ware is this year when they go to the 4-3 and his job is now to plug the holes and stop the short dump instead of going all gang busters towards the QB. Although it hasn't been unveiled yet...he could end up a DE I suppose.

 

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that linebackers aren't important. I don't buy "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". What I have repeatedly stated is that each team has to determine where they want to invest their money because they can't stack every position with big salaries (and I swear some people never quite get that). And given the makeup of our team which focuses on DE's for our pass rush, we're arguing apples and oranges here.

 

The other thing I am consistent on is I like to argue with fans who believe the Giants are toast because they haven't locked up 16 - 20 million dollars a year on linebackers. We could cut Nicks, Rolle, and Cruz and suddenly have the money to do that, but even then...most high paid, high profile linebackers are pass rushers and we already have them.

[Bigblue25]

That's not the point of the article (i.e., "you can't use a 3-4 in today's NFL"). That's ludicrous. The Ravens are Super Bowl champs and they are the quintessential example of the 3-4. It's true that they do line up on occasion in the 4-3, and Terrell Suggs can switch to DE. But they are a 3-4 defensive team...as are the Niners, the Steelers, Eagles, etc. So..."yeah, you can use a 3-4 in today's NFL". It happens every week during the season.

 

Regardless, the teams right now that use the 3-4 (and some are very good) are:

 

Arizona Cardinals

Baltimore Ravens

Cleveland Browns

Green Bay Packers

Houston Texans

Indianapolis Colts

Kansas City Chiefs

New Orleans Saints

New York Jets

Pittsburgh Steelers

Philadelphia Eagles

San Diego Chargers

San Francisco 49ers

Washington Redskins

 

It would also include the Dallas Cowboys, but they are switching to the 4-3 this coming season with their new defensive coordinator after dumping Rob Ryan.

 

Of course the Ravens have great linebackers. That's what they've been focusing on, paying for, and building on for many years - so they have a top notch linebacking corps to use in their pass rushing. We on the other hand, have invested for years now in DE's for our pass rushing because we use the 4-3. Hence the reason I commented on earlier that it will be interesting to see just how great DaMarcus Ware is this year when they go to the 4-3 and his job is now to plug the holes and stop the short dump instead of going all gang busters towards the QB. Although it hasn't been unveiled yet...he could end up a DE I suppose.

 

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that linebackers aren't important. I don't buy "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". What I have repeatedly stated is that each team has to determine where they want to invest their money because they can't stack every position with big salaries (and I swear some people never quite get that). And given the makeup of our team which focuses on DE's for our pass rush, we're arguing apples and oranges here.

 

The other thing I am consistent on is I like to argue with fans who believe the Giants are toast because they haven't locked up 16 - 20 million dollars a year on linebackers. We could cut Nicks, Rolle, and Cruz and suddenly have the money to do that, but even then...most high paid, high profile linebackers are pass rushers and we already have them.

 

Kuechly,Bowman,Willis,Lee, Wagner, those are just some high profile LB's, who are not pass rushers and the core of their teams D

[BleedinBlue]

 

 

Kuechly,Bowman,Willis,Lee, Wagner, those are just some high profile LB's, who are not pass rushers and the core of their teams D

Kuechly (2012 1st rd pick - 9 overall) Giants had pick 32 and couldn't have gotten him without trading up (perhaps 1,2nd, 3rd)and of course, no Wilson, Randle, etc.

 

Bowman (plays in a 3-4 defense)

 

Willis (2007 1st rod pick - 11 overall - plays in a 3-4) again, we would have had to trade up - probably a 1st and 2nd...maybe more

 

Lee (excellent pick by the Cowboys - also plays in a 3-4, alongside DeMarcus Ware). Giants picked up JPP and Linval Joseph that year with our 1st and 2nd. The Cowboys picked up Dez Bryant and Sean Lee withtheir 1st and 2nd. I suppose we could've grabbed Lee instead of Joseph. Of course, Lee was a high risk / high reward pick seeing he had just missed a year of play due to a torn anterior cruciate ligament.

 

Wagner was a good pick for Seattle last year. We took Wilson with our first and could've taken Wagner instead, but didn't, which absolutely shocked me that we took a RB and I was a Sean Lee fan at the time. The front office thought we needed a RB worse than anything else I guess.

 

------------------------------

 

Again...we have to balance the check book....work with the draft order we've been given....and focus on a 4-3 defense. It's not like we could have picked up these guys (who are perfect in the 3-4) without foregoing JPP, Wilson, etc.

 

Regardless...the sky is not falling. I wouldn't trade my Gaints for Seattle's team or the Panthers, who sucked bad enough to be able to draft higher than the Giants.

[fishgutmartyr]

Of course the Ravens have great linebackers. That's what they've been focusing on, paying for, and building on for many years - so they have a top notch linebacking corps to use in their pass rushing. We on the other hand, have invested for years now in DE's for our pass rushing because we use the 4-3. Hence the reason I commented on earlier that it will be interesting to see just how great DaMarcus Ware is this year when they go to the 4-3 and his job is now to plug the holes and stop the short dump instead of going all gang busters towards the QB. Although it hasn't been unveiled yet...he could end up a DE I suppose.

 

The Ravens stayed with the 3-4 for as long as they have for the simple reason that their best player (Ray Lewis) would have been completely wasted in the 4-3; much in the same way Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and now JPP would have been wasted in a 3-4. It is the EXACT same reason we were in a 3-4 for as long as we were in it during the 80s-90s. We switched after Taylor, Carson, Johnson, and Banks were already gone. Only a fool would change defensive schemes that would negate the strengths of their defense. Fortunately for us, Jerry Jones just happens to be one of those fools.

 

Why this is even brought up I have no idea, since no one that has commented on this thread is suggesting that switching to a 3-4 with this current crop of LBs is a good idea. In fact, based on the the attitude regarding our linebackers, most of the people here would consider it insanity.

 

There might be a time when our dline isn't a strength, and our linebackers become one--that's when we'd probably switch back to a 3-4. And one could argue that it could be very effective, because a couple good rushing LBs can come from anywhere, where our rush is usually generated from the outside. But that doesn't look like anytime soon.

[Bigblue25]

 

Kuechly (2012 1st rd pick - 9 overall) Giants had pick 32 and couldn't have gotten him without trading up (perhaps 1,2nd, 3rd)and of course, no Wilson, Randle, etc.

 

Bowman (plays in a 3-4 defense)

 

Willis (2007 1st rod pick - 11 overall - plays in a 3-4) again, we would have had to trade up - probably a 1st and 2nd...maybe more

 

Lee (excellent pick by the Cowboys - also plays in a 3-4, alongside DeMarcus Ware). Giants picked up JPP and Linval Joseph that year with our 1st and 2nd. The Cowboys picked up Dez Bryant and Sean Lee withtheir 1st and 2nd. I suppose we could've grabbed Lee instead of Joseph. Of course, Lee was a high risk / high reward pick seeing he had just missed a year of play due to a torn anterior cruciate ligament.

 

Wagner was a good pick for Seattle last year. We took Wilson with our first and could've taken Wagner instead, but didn't, which absolutely shocked me that we took a RB and I was a Sean Lee fan at the time. The front office thought we needed a RB worse than anything else I guess.

 

------------------------------

 

Again...we have to balance the check book....work with the draft order we've been given....and focus on a 4-3 defense. It's not like we could have picked up these guys (who are perfect in the 3-4) without foregoing JPP, Wilson, etc.

 

Regardless...the sky is not falling. I wouldn't trade my Gaints for Seattle's team or the Panthers, who sucked bad enough to be able to draft higher than the Giants.

 

Bowman and Willis, Are more intrical to the Niners then Smith and Brooks, both of those guys could of fit in 4-3 too. We could of had Lee or Washington, or Pat Angerer the year we took Joseph, Lee has had injury problems, and Washington has had off the field issues, I am gla we took Joseph. Lavonte David, we could of had last year over Wilson has well, I think the hope was David would of been there at the end of round two. Lee is gonna be the core of Dallas's D, in the 4-3. Like you said, it's gonna be interesting to see Ware, play with his hand in dirt and have to play more contain and gap discipline, instead of go get QB.

[Herc]

 

 

Followed by a first round exit from the playoffs and missing the playoffs completely... and the regular season record wasn't superb...

 

lol sorry we don't win the Super Bowl every year

[BleedinBlue]

Bowman and Willis, Are more intrical to the Niners then Smith and Brooks, both of those guys could of fit in 4-3 too. We could of had Lee or Washington, or Pat Angerer the year we took Joseph, Lee has had injury problems, and Washington has had off the field issues, I am gla we took Joseph. Lavonte David, we could of had last year over Wilson has well, I think the hope was David would of been there at the end of round two. Lee is gonna be the core of Dallas's D, in the 4-3. Like you said, it's gonna be interesting to see Ware, play with his hand in dirt and have to play more contain and gap discipline, instead of go get QB.

 

Good points. The small handful of stud LB's haven't really been available to us. The penalty for stringing along a good record in the NFL is you fall down the pecking order of the draft. The LB's who've made a difference are almost always gone by the time the Giants pick...and you can't fault the Giants for taking JPP instead of a second tier LB that "might workout". Not to mention....for every LB that becomes a pro-bowler, a dozen of them that were drafted are washouts.

 

The last time the Giants were in a position to draft near the top of the board was the year they grabbed Eli and the following year we didn't have a first round pick. Since then...we've had to wait until late in the day to make our pick.

 

Regardless...I like our team's makeup with pass-rushing DE's and a solid QB with a potentially wild offensive attack. It'd be nice to be able to have every spot covered with a pro-bowler, but it will never happen with the cap and the need to find a way under it.

[Herc]

http://sports.yahoo....-184200146.html

 

 

 

 

If Williams gets surgery now, you can scratch him off of the list.

 

Pierce was a big acquisition in free agency in 2005. We paid good money for that guy. We put up a pretty big sum for Arrington, too--fortunately for us, we had escapes in the contract. We also didn't get Boley on the cheap. I understand that the first two signings wasn't Reese so much as Accorsi--but you can't really make the argument that ignoring linebackers is standard operating procedure in the Coughlin era, either. So I don't know if there's a "defensive philosophy" involved in dumpster-diving for LBs; so much as an inability to develop the numerous draftees we've had over the years, and a hesitation to weaken other units by signing FAs beyond 1 year to compensate.

 

Kawika Mitchell had an excellent season for us. Possibly a career season-so it's not like we got into the SB in 2007 with a total absence of LB play. If Manning doesn't have what would be an MVP season in any other year but 2011 and carry us into the playoffs, the whole "winning superbowls without linebackers" wouldn't even be an argument.

 

Seriously, who is going to have Tuck's back when he inevitably starts playing hurt towards the end of the season? Who's starting weakside if Williams is out? Rivers, with his injury history?

 

I'm not suggesting that we should have drafted a linebacker this year (we can't seem to develop any, so a late rounder is a waste), but let's not kid ourselves about that unit, either. We need a ton of things to break our way on that defense just to be mediocre this year.

 

i mention these guys because we made due with less than great players in that layer of D.

 

As for our defense during those two superbowl runs, our 2007 season is pretty much known for our pass defense (that was shored up by drafting extra pass rushers that people thought were excessive instead of linebackers) and our D during the 2011 run was pretty great too. We shut out atlanta and held two great D's in green bay and new england in check

[Nas]

lol sorry we don't win the Super Bowl every year

 

That wasn't the point...

[Herc]

That wasn't the point...

 

defending superbowl champs don't live up to expectations the following year. news at 11

[JMFP]

Because having even one three-down linebacker is worth it in lieu of your fifth-string DE.

 

Correct.

 

And when other teams look over the line, see 6 defensive backs and one random mediocre linebacker, watch them run the ball down the Giants throat.

[Nas]

Correct.

 

And when other teams look over the line, see 6 defensive backs and no true linebacker, watch them run the ball down the Giants throat.

 

That's exactly what the Redskins did... especially seeing Osi at DE to top it off.

[JMFP]

The Ravens stayed with the 3-4 for as long as they have for the simple reason that their best player (Ray Lewis) would have been completely wasted in the 4-3; much in the same way Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and now JPP would have been wasted in a 3-4. It is the EXACT same reason we were in a 3-4 for as long as we were in it during the 80s-90s. We switched after Taylor, Carson, Johnson, and Banks were already gone. Only a fool would change defensive schemes that would negate the strengths of their defense. Fortunately for us, Jerry Jones just happens to be one of those fools.

 

Why this is even brought up I have no idea, since no one that has commented on this thread is suggesting that switching to a 3-4 with this current crop of LBs is a good idea. In fact, based on the the attitude regarding our linebackers, most of the people here would consider it insanity.

 

There might be a time when our dline isn't a strength, and our linebackers become one--that's when we'd probably switch back to a 3-4. And one could argue that it could be very effective, because a couple good rushing LBs can come from anywhere, where our rush is usually generated from the outside. But that doesn't look like anytime soon.

 

The dominant DE 4-3 is a great defense against the Tom Brady-type QB, but with speedy QBs (RG3, Kaepernick, Wilson, etc), athletic tight ends, pass-catching RBs (McCoy), the best defense is a 3-4.

 

Colleges are now producing the linebackers to defend against these players.....the guys coming out of college were once safeties that converted to linebacker as they kept getting bigger and stronger.

 

Either Moore and Cooper Taylor will play alot of hybrid LB, and/or Curry sheds his bust label, and/or last year's linebackers suddenly improve alot.

 

If not, this defense will continue to get abused. Defensive lineman cannot deal with the speed that is coming out of today's NFL offenses.

[JMFP]

That's exactly what the Redskins did... especially seeing Osi at DE to top it off.

 

Exactly....it was downright scary watching the Redskins hammer the Giants on the ground.

 

I know the DE-fetishists insist it would all be different if the linemen were able to occupy blockers and keep the linebackers clean, but sometimes a linebacker is required to shoot a gap or shed a block.