Brandon Marshall for a #1?

[CrazedDogs]

There were two major differences on the team between last years team and the one that won the super bowl. Strahan and Plax (and of course the DC). Granted losing Strahan changes any defense for the worse, but the following year, up to the point of Plax shooting himself, I think it's fair to say the Giants were the best team in the league and a favorite to win the super bowl again. The loss of a dominant, feared WR that demands attention very likely cost us another SB.

 

It isn't about stats, what were Plax's stats? The year we won he barely had a thousand yards and more than half way through the season the following year he wasn't on pace for a thousand or double digit TD's. But the team was unstoppable because defenses always had two guys on him and focused their attention on him.

 

Thats the thing a guy like Marshall can do for our offense. Smith is a damn fine wr, Nicks may well end up being great, but Marshall is a proven commodity, a guy who will demand attention and still get his receptions/yards.

 

Drafting is hit or miss, Mcclain or whoever we get could end up being a Patrick Willis, or he could end up being Willie Joseph.

 

Sorry, but that's a faulty premise. You're thinking of the 2008 Giants. The 2009 Giants had several new faces and plenty of injuries (probably the biggest difference of all).

 

If Marshall is every bit the blocker that Burress was, then maybe you guys are on to something. Burress was never the sort of WR who is double-covered on every down...he helped out the running game by occupying one or two guys, usually keeping one of them out of the play entirely. Most WRs can't do that.

 

But Steve Smith really showed me something as a blocker last year too. So now we're going to take his Brandon Marshall-lite production and (probably) superior blocking off the field?

 

And another thing...if I thought the problem with the running game last year was there were just too many guys for the OL to block, I might agree with the Marshall Plan. But to me it looked like a group who were blowing assignments and getting very little push. I'd rather spend that 1st rounder on an offensive lineman than another WR.

[fringe]

Marshall Plan- I like that. Who said anything about taking Steve Smith off the field? The odd man out would probably be Manningham.

[Virginia Giant]

Marshall Plan- I like that. Who said anything about taking Steve Smith off the field? The odd man out would probably be Manningham.

Thats the argument I'm not understanding, who's development is going to be stunted? Certainly not Smith's or Nicks'. And I'm fine with getting a player like Marshall even if it means a 4th round pick who didn't play a down last year won't get as many reps in practice.

 

 

As for Plax's importance being more as a run blocker, I'll agree he was great at that aspect of his game, but we didn't go from super bowl champs to first round playoff exit to 8-8 because we lost Plax's run blocking.

[fringe]

Thats the argument I'm not understanding, who's development is going to be stunted? Certainly not Smith's or Nicks'. And I'm fine with getting a player like Marshall even if it means a 4th round pick who didn't play a down last year won't get as many reps in practice.

 

 

As for Plax's importance being more as a run blocker, I'll agree he was great at that aspect of his game, but we didn't go from super bowl champs to first round playoff exit to 8-8 because we lost Plax's run blocking.

and to all those who think ramses barden is a can't miss- you base that on what exactly? his college days at the Receiver factory- Cal Poly?

[fishgutmartyr]

Thats the argument I'm not understanding, who's development is going to be stunted? Certainly not Smith's or Nicks'. And I'm fine with getting a player like Marshall even if it means a 4th round pick who didn't play a down last year won't get as many reps in practice.

 

 

As for Plax's importance being more as a run blocker, I'll agree he was great at that aspect of his game, but we didn't go from super bowl champs to first round playoff exit to 8-8 because we lost Plax's run blocking.

 

We don't have linebackers. Our defensive line gets beat up, like it did in the last two seasons, our linebackers can't compensate. If our secondary gets beat up like last year, our linebackers can't pick up any coverage, because with the single exception of Boley, NONE of them can go into coverage competently.

 

We lost plenty of games after scoring plenty of points last year. Getting Marshall might mean more of the same.

 

We don't have linebackers.

 

We could probably use more bodies at DT and Safety. Although those positions might improve just by everyone healing. But we were slaughtered by teams running up our middle last year, and because we had to compensate for that, they threw at will on us.

 

We don't have linebackers.

[Allstarjim]

There seems to be more than one argument here that can be addressed. The first question is, would Brandon Marshall as a player make us better? The answer is yes!

 

1. Marshall would definitely upgrade our WR corps. He would instantly be our best WR.

 

2. He would definitely draw double teams.

 

These are the definite 'Pros.;.

 

But you don't get Brandon Marshall as just the player, do you? You also get Brandon Marshall the person as well. Suspended by the league, suspended by his team. Wore out his welcome. Was a malcontent. Wouldn't practice. Has a history of violence, to include domestic violence, and has been arrested and charged with these crimes. Also has a DUI. And a mystery surrounding him and his "crew" on the night his teammate, Darrent Williams, was murdered.

 

Now, the next argument is, should we use our #15 overall pick to acquire him? Just based on the above paragraph, and based on the fact that Anquan Boldin was had for just a 3rd and 4th rounder, and he does NOT have the rap sheet that Marshall does... the answer is not only no, but HELL NO.

 

But then you have to factor in the value of the #15 pick as it relates to our team and our personnel needs. The #15 pick is extremely valuable. It doesn't matter that other teams have picked duds at or near that pick in the past.... what matters is that it is a very valuable pick... particularly in this year's deep draft.

 

Then you consider our defensive woes last year and the fact that we have a pretty big hole at MLB.... and that the consensus best middle linebacker in college football has a very realistic chance of being available at #15. A guy who was the best defensive player on probably the best defense in the country last season, on the national championship winning Crimson Tide. Rolando McClain will NOT be a bust... wherever he goes, that much I am sure of. He is a sideline to sideline athlete inside a 6'4", 254 lb NFL ready body.

 

Does a guy like that make a bigger impact than Brandon Marshall would?

 

Well, you also have to consider the state of our WR corps. It is not anything close to a sure thing that Ramses Barden will pan out as a NFL receiver. Manningham had a terrible time with field awareness and with catching the ball cleanly, but he did flash some very good speed and agility. He could go either way, IMO.

 

But Nicks is on the precipice of breaking out as a true superstar at his position. Everything Brandon Marshall could do for our offense, Nicks could do, outside of being 6'4". Brandon Marshall would create double teams, but Nicks could to. Nicks beat some pretty damn good corners on the Jets last year. Nicks belongs, and he is going to have a huge year. Nicks gets deep despite blazing speed. He doesn't need it, because he's so quick and agile. For that matter, Marshall is not a burner either. Then you consider the year Steve Smith had, and you have to say that the tandem of Nicks and Smith is very good. Throw in Hixon as a 3rd receiver with speed and some good ball skills, and you have maybe the best trio of wide receivers we've ever had. Speaking of double teams, Steve Smith was drawing some of those last year.

 

And I'm not buying that Marshall's presence will cause a very noticeable improvement in Jacobs' production. if Jacobs isn't beating the front seven, it's not going to change no matter who is lining up on the outside. Jacobs is an inside runner. What will improve Jacobs' production is healthy knees.

 

Then there's Eli. Who wouldn't want to throw to a player of Marshall's caliber? Anyone would. But the fact is that Eli doesn't need him. If you don't double Nicks or Smith, Eli is a smart enough, and accurate enough QB now to torch you. The only thing that can stop Eli is an effective pass rush. Eli has emerged as one of the best passers in the NFL. Point is... Eli doesn't NEED Marshall, and neither does this offense to really go. This team has its star... and it's the QB. And it just so happens that he has at least 2 great options to throw to outside.... and one of them may end up being a better receiver (and much less of a disciplinary problem) in the long run anyway.

 

That is why you cannot trade the #15 overall pick for Brandon Marshall. You have to fix this defense because Marshall isn't going to make us better enough to make up for the lack of punch in the middle of the defense.

 

And when it comes down to it, Marshall is probably going to end up ruining a lockerroom and cause more problems for the next team he goes to anyway.

[Virginia Giant]

We don't have linebackers. Our defensive line gets beat up, like it did in the last two seasons, our linebackers can't compensate. If our secondary gets beat up like last year, our linebackers can't pick up any coverage, because with the single exception of Boley, NONE of them can go into coverage competently.

 

We lost plenty of games after scoring plenty of points last year. Getting Marshall might mean more of the same.

 

We don't have linebackers.

 

We could probably use more bodies at DT and Safety. Although those positions might improve just by everyone healing. But we were slaughtered by teams running up our middle last year, and because we had to compensate for that, they threw at will on us.

 

We don't have linebackers.

So Drafting McClain is going to solve that? Perhaps in 2 to 3 years, unless he's P{atrick Willis. I'm all for drafting/signing LB's, but I think we could easily grab a guy in the second round like Spikes who I believe is every bit as good as McClain, use our first to get Marshall and still sign a veteran LB like Morrison.

 

What happens if we have to move up 3 spots to get McClain? Trade ouyr 1st and probly a 3rd to move up a couple spots?

 

I just don't understand this line of thinking, nobody said we'd be forbidden from drafting and/or signing LB's, but there is a lot less gamble in trading for a guy who's a proven NFL star who's still young than drafting a guy with a disease that coiuld keep him from playing at any given time.

 

I would love to have McClain, dudes a stud, but nobody we draft is going to step in there and start this season. My prefered scenerio is drafting Spikes, trading our 1st for Marshall and signing a vet LB like Morrison. That would instantly solidify our LB's, give us a premium weapon at WR, and allow us to work on other areas, still have 5 picks left.

[CrazedDogs]

Marshall Plan- I like that. Who said anything about taking Steve Smith off the field? The odd man out would probably be Manningham.

 

Well now I'm confused. Who said anything about going to a 3 WR base offense?

 

Hmmmm...

 

The run & shoot comes to New York...

[CrazedDogs]

So Drafting McClain is going to solve that? Perhaps in 2 to 3 years, unless he's P{atrick Willis. I'm all for drafting/signing LB's, but I think we could easily grab a guy in the second round like Spikes who I believe is every bit as good as McClain, use our first to get Marshall and still sign a veteran LB like Morrison.

 

What happens if we have to move up 3 spots to get McClain? Trade ouyr 1st and probly a 3rd to move up a couple spots?

 

I just don't understand this line of thinking, nobody said we'd be forbidden from drafting and/or signing LB's, but there is a lot less gamble in trading for a guy who's a proven NFL star who's still young than drafting a guy with a disease that coiuld keep him from playing at any given time.

 

I would love to have McClain, dudes a stud, but nobody we draft is going to step in there and start this season. My prefered scenerio is drafting Spikes, trading our 1st for Marshall and signing a vet LB like Morrison. That would instantly solidify our LB's, give us a premium weapon at WR, and allow us to work on other areas, still have 5 picks left.

 

I don't know anything about McClain, and the draft is always a crap shoot, but historically LBs tend to be pretty safe picks.

 

I can't think of many 1st & 2nd round LBs over the last several years who aren't at least serviceable starters.

[fringe]

Well now I'm confused. Who said anything about going to a 3 WR base offense?

 

Hmmmm...

 

The run & shoot comes to New York...

That's pretty sarcastic, doctor dog. you know full well 3 receivers can get ample playing time in the giants scheme.

[fringe]

Great, now the JETS are interested in Marshall. More and more, it looks like the first trophy in that new stadium is going to be in the green room.

[Mr. P]

i cant believe this is still being discussed

 

 

 

 

 

spending a 1st on WR when WR was one of our strengths because a first round draft pick might not pan out sounds like the dan snyder formula of winning.

[fishgutmartyr]

So Drafting McClain is going to solve that? Perhaps in 2 to 3 years, unless he's P{atrick Willis. I'm all for drafting/signing LB's, but I think we could easily grab a guy in the second round like Spikes who I believe is every bit as good as McClain, use our first to get Marshall and still sign a veteran LB like Morrison.

 

What happens if we have to move up 3 spots to get McClain? Trade ouyr 1st and probly a 3rd to move up a couple spots?

 

I just don't understand this line of thinking, nobody said we'd be forbidden from drafting and/or signing LB's, but there is a lot less gamble in trading for a guy who's a proven NFL star who's still young than drafting a guy with a disease that coiuld keep him from playing at any given time.

 

I would love to have McClain, dudes a stud, but nobody we draft is going to step in there and start this season. My prefered scenerio is drafting Spikes, trading our 1st for Marshall and signing a vet LB like Morrison. That would instantly solidify our LB's, give us a premium weapon at WR, and allow us to work on other areas, still have 5 picks left.

We need more than one linebacker, and it's critical we pick one up in the draft. Even if Sintim turns out to be a decent starter, we need more than one. I doubt we are going for Morrison--I'd love it, bu I just think we would have heard something by now. There's no guarantee Spikes is even there in the second round when we pick.

 

Our backups are Blackburn, Wilkinson, DeOssie, and Kiehl at the moment. Goff is a starter. We're so thin in talent with that squad you could see through it, let alone run through it. As things stand right now, one or two defenders go on IR, and we're back to last year; our backups are barely adequate to cover their own positions, let alone compensate if a DT or safety goes down. In fact, our starters haven't proven anything. I'm not sure how you can look at that crew and say: "let's trade our first for a WR."

 

Besides, you guys spent all last season bitching about not committing to the run. Not necessarily you, VG, but I read "pass-happy offense" just about every week. Getting Marshall is going to improve that ratio?

[fringe]

i cant believe this is still being discussed

 

 

 

 

 

spending a 1st on WR when WR was one of our strengths because a first round draft pick might not pan out sounds like the dan snyder formula of winning.

i can't believe it either but people keep posting.

 

who said that was the reason?

[Mr. P]

i can't believe it either but people keep posting.

 

who said that was the reason?

 

nobody i guess but it seemed to be feeding into some of the reasoning.

[fringe]

We need more than one linebacker, and it's critical we pick one up in the draft. Even if Sintim turns out to be a decent starter, we need more than one. I doubt we are going for Morrison--I'd love it, bu I just think we would have heard something by now. There's no guarantee Spikes is even there in the second round when we pick.

 

Our backups are Blackburn, Wilkinson, DeOssie, and Kiehl at the moment. Goff is a starter. We're so thin in talent with that squad you could see through it, let alone run through it. As things stand right now, one or two defenders go on IR, and we're back to last year; our backups are barely adequate to cover their own positions, let alone compensate if a DT or safety goes down. In fact, our starters haven't proven anything. I'm not sure how you can look at that crew and say: "let's trade our first for a WR."

 

well instead of putting band aids on multiple cuts on my fighter's right eye, i prefer to let it bleed and go for the early knockout.

[fishgutmartyr]

well instead of putting band aids on multiple cuts on my fighter's right eye, i prefer to let it bleed and go for the early knockout.

I'd prefer to remove the one arm from behind his back. Just a different perspective.

[fringe]

I'd prefer to remove the one arm from behind his back. Just a different perspective.

 

that's some "tomato can" fighter we got there

[Allstarjim]

So Drafting McClain is going to solve that? Perhaps in 2 to 3 years, unless he's P{atrick Willis. I'm all for drafting/signing LB's, but I think we could easily grab a guy in the second round like Spikes who I believe is every bit as good as McClain, use our first to get Marshall and still sign a veteran LB like Morrison.

 

What happens if we have to move up 3 spots to get McClain? Trade ouyr 1st and probly a 3rd to move up a couple spots?

 

I just don't understand this line of thinking, nobody said we'd be forbidden from drafting and/or signing LB's, but there is a lot less gamble in trading for a guy who's a proven NFL star who's still young than drafting a guy with a disease that coiuld keep him from playing at any given time.

 

I would love to have McClain, dudes a stud, but nobody we draft is going to step in there and start this season. My prefered scenerio is drafting Spikes, trading our 1st for Marshall and signing a vet LB like Morrison. That would instantly solidify our LB's, give us a premium weapon at WR, and allow us to work on other areas, still have 5 picks left.

 

 

VG, I also like Spikes. I don't think he's quite the athlete that McClain is, but he's pretty close. However, Spikes won't be where we draft in Round 2. I think that's a near certainty. But even if it was guaranteed that he would be there, I still wouldn't trade my #1 pick for a malcontent like Marshall. Marshall may be one of the most gifted WR's ever... but he's just not a winner. He's not a guy who puts team over self. He's not a person that is willing to sacrifice and do the hard things to win. He gets by only on physical ability. He reminds me of Randy Moss. Moss, maybe the most gifted WR to ever play football, and I think that is no exaggeration, has never won a Super Bowl (though he came close against us, because he is simply not a winner. Yet, Moss has been a better player and citizen than Marshall.

 

With what we have, I wouldn't bring Marshall in. As good as he can be, he comes with too big of a downside. We got rid of Shockey... Plax is gone. We can't forget what the malcontents can do to a locker room.

 

You do make a good point about McClain and his Crohn's. I do think as long as his medical situation is maintained, he would be a tremendous NFL starter right away. Boley and Goff can help the young guys until they really feel comfortable with what they are doing. I expect big things from Sintim this year.

 

I think we need Mcclain in round 1. If he is taken before our pick, I would hope the Giants would trade down some spots and pick up another 2nd or 3rd rounder. I still think we could use a speedy RB, a OL, and a DT. Witherspoon is another guy to look out for.... the linebacker from Mizzou.

[Nas]

I don't know anything about McClain, and the draft is always a crap shoot, but historically LBs tend to be pretty safe picks.

 

I can't think of many 1st & 2nd round LBs over the last several years who aren't at least serviceable starters.

 

Arrington

[Nas]

My final thought...

 

Marshall would be great in blue...

 

Having said that, OUR BIGGEST NEED ins that of MLB. And when last year's need was a stud WR, we got NIcks. This year, we're getting a FRANCHISE LB. I'm amazed at how some here are willing to give up the dream of filling that gap.. giving up a Ray Lewis for a WR.. when we don't need anymore WRs.

 

Now that was from a football point of view.....

 

Now the financial point of view...

 

Sure it's an uncapped year.. then what? What happens when each stud WR wants huge $$$? and we can't afford them all?

 

Besides, when Jim, Fish, and Bleedin agree on anything Giants related, that's it for me..

[CrazedDogs]

Arrington

 

And he was more than serviceable until he had a bone-on-bone knee condition.

 

Tatupu's play has fallen off. The Bengals had a couple guys who fizzled, (Pollack & Odell Thurman) but that was injuries and off-field stuff. Otherwise, 1st & 2nd rd LBs are money in the bank compared to most other positions.

[CrazedDogs]

That's pretty sarcastic, doctor dog. you know full well 3 receivers can get ample playing time in the giants scheme.

 

My minor was in sarcasm.

 

Its not that 3 WRs wouldn't get ample playing time...its that there's only one ball on the field. Adding Marshall won't add much real production since he'd just be taking catches away from some other good-enough player.

[BIGBLUE01]

and to all those who think ramses barden is a can't miss- you base that on what exactly? his college days at the Receiver factory- Cal Poly?

 

Exactly. It reminds me of a time, when this kid from Mississippi State came into the NFL. I thought, "Cmon kid, this is the NFL, you aint good enough for the big time!" Crazy kid. I think his name was Jefferey....or...JERRY. Yeah, thats it, Jerry Rice.

 

Howd he do?

 

[Mr. P]

since we were talking about linebackers(mcclain/spikes) here, today at floridas pro-day spikes ran a 5.01 in the 40yd dash. not very good.