A stunning stat on how bad the Giants are in the draft.

[Sephiroth]

Dan Graziano may be coming into his own.

[Tempest]

Still doesn't take into account players brought in after the draft.

[JMFP]

Dan Graziano has been the best Giants beat writer for a few years now.

[Herc]

Still doesn't take into account players brought in after the draft.

That's because the article is about the draft

[Tempest]

That's because the article is about the draft

 

I count the players who were in the NFL draft and not drafted as part of the same group and they matter equally. We all love how we found Jessie Armstead in the 8th round. You are right and I'm going to go look for a sheet of paper and needle.

[Sephiroth]

Besides Victor Cruz, who have they picked up as an undrafted free agent that has made a difference anyway? Herzlich and Paysinger may have seen playing time but they were both terrible, and the jury is still out on Larry Donnell and Will Tye.

[BlueInCanada]

JR has made some good signings, Jennins, Vereen, Mitchell (Who he should of fucking kept), Rolle, Weatherford, Bennet (Who he should of also fucking kept)

 

Unfortunately his number of signings that just didnt do a single things for the team or had no real impact, as well as the players who he SHOULD have kept outweighs that list.

 

His draft record speaks for itself.

 

I think the state of the defense alone, the LB core, Dline (even with a healthy JPP), are all at this point back up/rotational players. Outside of Hankins, JPP (until he walks), Kennard are the only real starting players, with Ayers sitting on the fence because his contract is up I believe.

[Dragon]

I actually did the majority of a write-up concerning Reese earlier and I included everything from Free Agent signings to the draft and UDFAs. I still have some tweaks to add to it (tallying up value players and stopgaps, Positional selections in the draft and signings in free agency, success rate in the draft by round). I'll be posting it here and doing my YouTube Video before I get started on my offseason plan.

[Treehugger]

The stats are bad, but it's still not proof that it's all Reese's fault. It takes more than one man to build an NFL roster.

[Sephiroth]

The stats are bad, but it's still not proof that it's all Reese's fault. It takes more than one man to build an NFL roster.

 

That's true, and as noted, Jerry Palmieri's death and dismemberment program has likely ruined a lot of players that may have had promising NFL careers. But take a look at this 2007 roster and show me who Reese has replaced these guys with who's of equal or better talent:

 

Eli Manning - push

Brandon Jacobs - no

Madison Hedgecock - no

Plax Burress - yes

Amani Toomer - no

Jeremy Shockey - no

David Diehl - perhaps

Rich Seubert - no

Shaun O'Hara - likely

Chris Snee - no

Kareem McKenzie - no

 

Michael Strahan - no (though this is a tall order)

Barry Cofield - likely

Fred Robbins - no

Osi Umenyiora - no

Mathias Kiwanuka - no

Antonio Pierce - no

Aaron Ross - yes

Sam Madison - yes

James Butler - no (this is stunning; most of us hated Butler)

Gibril Wilson - perhaps.

 

 

Reese is a poor GM and this roster sucks. I hope (as the Giants seem to hope) that he's turned the corner, but he's still got a lot of work to do to put a roster together that's of equal talent to the one he was left with.

[Treehugger]

If you want to compare talent (not production) then I'd disagree with a lot of that:

 

 

That's true, and as noted, Jerry Palmieri's death and dismemberment program has likely ruined a lot of players that may have had promising NFL careers. But take a look at this 2007 roster and show me who Reese has replaced these guys with who's of equal or better talent:

 

Eli Manning - push

Brandon Jacobs - no I think Jennings is likely a better all-round RB than Jacobs

Madison Hedgecock - no No significant difference

Plax Burress - yes Obviously, and significantly.

Amani Toomer - no Cruz > Toomer

Jeremy Shockey - no Donnel or Tye isn't a huge downgrade from 2007 Shockey. I bet their stats/game are very similar

David Diehl - perhaps

Rich Seubert - no

Shaun O'Hara - likely

Chris Snee - no

Kareem McKenzie - no OLine is hard to argue against, but that's a pretty damn tall order too.

 

Michael Strahan - no (though this is a tall order)

Barry Cofield - likely Definitely. Hankins has Pro-bowl potential IMO.

Fred Robbins - no I'd say it's a push between Robbins and Jenkins.

Osi Umenyiora - no

Mathias Kiwanuka - no I'd argue JPP + Ayers is a push in terms of talent vs Osi + Kiwi

Antonio Pierce - no Beason is probably better

Aaron Ross - yes

Sam Madison - yes Huge upgrade at CB. Huge.

James Butler - no (this is stunning; most of us hated Butler)

Gibril Wilson - perhaps. I'm pretty sure we've improved here. We'll see.

 

To me the most obvious difference is no Strahan and the OLine. We're actually stronger at WR, CB and DT, talent-wise.

[Sephiroth]

If you want to compare talent (not production) then I'd disagree with a lot of that:

 

 

To me the most obvious difference is no Strahan and the OLine. We're actually stronger at WR, CB and DT, talent-wise.

 

Jacobs in his prime to me is much better than Jennings, and wasn't injured as much. Donnell or Tye on their best days can't hold Shockey's jock strap (though I think Tye has potential). Beason is better than Pierce for what, four games a season? You're joking, right?

 

And I didn't even bring up who's replaced Webster and Tuck.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Treehugger]

 

Jacobs in his prime to me is much better than Jennings, and wasn't injured as much. Donnell or Tye on their best days can't hold Shockey's jock strap (though I think Tye has potential). Beason is better than Pierce for what, four games a season? You're joking, right?

 

And I didn't even bring up who's replaced Webster and Tuck.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Are you arguing TALENT hasn't been replaced, or are you blaming Reese for players being injured too?

 

Again, I'd like to see a comparison of 2007 Shockey vs 2014 Donnell or 2015 Tye on a per game basis. I bet there's not a huge drop off at all. In fact, let me look that up:

 

Shockey 2007 = 14 starts, 617 yards, 3 TDs

Donnell 2014 = 12 starts, 623 yards, 6 TDs

Tye 2015 = 7 starts, 464 yards, 3 TDs.

 

I win.

 

I'd also like to see Jennings run behind the same line Jacobs had. I bet he'd be just as productive, if not better, and a better pass catcher to boot.

[Herc]

Also the article is based on snaps. That doesn't mean a whole lot. Glad they didn't use that argument to assess Aaron Rodgers' pick value his first few years in the league

[Tempest]

 

Are you arguing TALENT hasn't been replaced, or are you blaming Reese for players being injured too?

 

Again, I'd like to see a comparison of 2007 Shockey vs 2014 Donnell or 2015 Tye on a per game basis. I bet there's not a huge drop off at all. In fact, let me look that up:

 

Shockey 2007 = 14 starts, 617 yards, 3 TDs

Donnell 2014 = 12 starts, 623 yards, 6 TDs

Tye 2015 = 7 starts, 464 yards, 3 TDs.

 

I win.

 

I'd also like to see Jennings run behind the same line Jacobs had. I bet he'd be just as productive, if not better, and a better pass catcher to boot.

 

He blames Palmieri for injuries, not all just most. There are guys we have drafted that have had injuries so... if a player broke his toe in college then he might break his toe in the NFL and miss games. Clearly guys with a history of toe injuries should be avoided.

[Dragon]

Are you arguing TALENT hasn't been replaced, or are you blaming Reese for players being injured too?

 

Again, I'd like to see a comparison of 2007 Shockey vs 2014 Donnell or 2015 Tye on a per game basis. I bet there's not a huge drop off at all. In fact, let me look that up:

 

Shockey 2007 = 14 starts, 617 yards, 3 TDs

Donnell 2014 = 12 starts, 623 yards, 6 TDs

Tye 2015 = 7 starts, 464 yards, 3 TDs.

 

I win.

 

I'd also like to see Jennings run behind the same line Jacobs had. I bet he'd be just as productive, if not better, and a better pass catcher to boot.

Just out of sheer curiosity... would you take 2007 Toomer or 2015 Randle?

 

Toomer - 15 starts 59 rec 760 yards 3 TDs

Randle - 16 starts 57 rec 797 yards 8 TDs

 

By all accounts Randle is statistically better... but we also know he's about as reliable as wet toilet paper holding a bowling ball.

[Tempest]

Just out of sheer curiosity... would you take 2007 Toomer or 2015 Randle?

 

Toomer - 15 starts 59 rec 760 yards 3 TDs

Randle - 16 starts 57 rec 797 yards 8 TDs

 

By all accounts Randle is statistically better... but we also know he's about as reliable as wet toilet paper holding a bowling ball.

 

Randle about ten years younger is roughly statically even with Toomer... I think Randle will be out of the league next season as well. Take Randle because he can run with the ball but Toomer caught the balls sent his way.

[Sephiroth]

 

Are you arguing TALENT hasn't been replaced, or are you blaming Reese for players being injured too?

 

Again, I'd like to see a comparison of 2007 Shockey vs 2014 Donnell or 2015 Tye on a per game basis. I bet there's not a huge drop off at all. In fact, let me look that up:

 

Shockey 2007 = 14 starts, 617 yards, 3 TDs

Donnell 2014 = 12 starts, 623 yards, 6 TDs

Tye 2015 = 7 starts, 464 yards, 3 TDs.

 

I win.

 

I'd also like to see Jennings run behind the same line Jacobs had. I bet he'd be just as productive, if not better, and a better pass catcher to boot.

Tye and Donnell may have comparable numbers for yards and catches, but honestly, both are an embarrassment when asked to block. I'll take the receiving yards and the blocking, but if you prefer a human turnstile setting the edge that's your choice to make. I'm happy without the Shockey shit fits though.

 

And Jennings is Jacobs without the size, speed, or power, but better receiving skills. In his day Jacobs could take over a game; we haven't seen that from Jennings yet.

 

I'd love to see Jennings run behind the same line Jacobs had too... which sort of buttresses my point that Reese hasn't adequately replaced those guys.

[Iceman_NYG]

Buttresses.....hehe

[Treehugger]

Just out of sheer curiosity... would you take 2007 Toomer or 2015 Randle?

 

Toomer - 15 starts 59 rec 760 yards 3 TDs

Randle - 16 starts 57 rec 797 yards 8 TDs

 

By all accounts Randle is statistically better... but we also know he's about as reliable as wet toilet paper holding a bowling ball.

 

Toomer was WR #2, Randle is WR #3. So on a pure talent basis you'd have to say Reese has done a good job on improving that group.

[gmenroc]

Game has become more of a passing league even since Toomer...so there's that to consider as well when comparing him to Randle.

 

Comparing 2007 to now ignores the guys we brought in and have since left. Kenny Phillips comes to mind. When evaluating Reese, the safety position for example, you can't just compare Butler/Wilson to Collins/whoever played this year next to Collins.

[Allstarjim]

 

Toomer was WR #2, Randle is WR #3. So on a pure talent basis you'd have to say Reese has done a good job on improving that group.

 

Tree... Tree, Tree Tree. You are needlessly overcomplicating this issue. First, with the exception of his not very noteworthy rookie season, Randle has been our #2. Second, Toomer was our #1 for many seasons. Third, these designations don't even matter.

 

And the relevance of one season, that was Amani Toomer's next to last year as a professional football player, compared with this past season of Randle's performance... it's even less relevant. This is like the moving goal post comparison.

 

When comparing draft picks, you are comparing the comprehensive contributions of a player to the team over their Giants' career.

 

Amani Toomer is the Giants' all-time leader in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs. He is 5th all-time in franchise history in terms of ALL TDs.

 

He is right behind (on the latter stat)... Brandon Jacobs.

There is no comparison to be made. Randle has had four seasons and a large contingent of the team doesn't want to retain his services. He is a sloppy route runner, quits on plays, and has contributed more to Eli's interception total than any single player, and probably more than all players combined during his tenure here. In between, he's had some good moments, but far to few to justify him as being even a "good" receiver.

 

Do you know what Amani Toomer did in his fourth year with the Giants? Which, by the way, was his first season where he had a significant role in the offense (first 3 seasons used primarily as a returner/specials)? 79 catches, 1183 yards and 6 TDs. And this was in 1999... where he was 10th in the NFL in receiving.

 

Further, in 1999 Toomer caught those 1183 yards out of the 4015 passing yards thrown from Kerry Collins and Kent Graham (9 starts). In contrast, Randle caught 797 yards of Eli Manning's 4,436 passing yards this year.

 

Further, in 1999 the entire NFL threw for 105,289 passing yards. 2015 NFL - 124,847. This goes to show you that yes, the NFL is more pass friendly than even Amani Toomer's era.

 

It is silly and ridiculous to compare the two. Rueben Randle doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Amani Toomer.

 

But back to the earlier point, you can't just pick out a single year of a player's performance and compare stats. Draft picks aren't measured that way... it's their cumulative contributions. And you don't need to do some over-thought analysis to see that Reese has sucked in replacing talent. Further, snaps are as fair a comparison as any, because injuries are, for the most part, somewhat normalized across all teams (and yes I know we are close to the worst in that regard over the past few seasons). But still, that much of a snap disparity is indicative that other teams are getting more playing time from their draft picks than the Giants are. Reese's performance has been a travesty.

 

And I can do the same thing with the Shockey comparison... which isn't exactly fair given that Shockey played during Eli's growing pains' years and still, for the most part, out-produced the TE's we have today. Shockey had two seasons where he had just a shade under 900 yards receiving. Now, I give you that the comparison is a lot closer, and Shockey wasn't exactly a homerun because he was a selfish player, but come on... he was a better player than Donnell. And Tye is an incomplete because we need to see more.

[JMFP]

 

That's true, and as noted, Jerry Palmieri's death and dismemberment program has likely ruined a lot of players that may have had promising NFL careers. But take a look at this 2007 roster and show me who Reese has replaced these guys with who's of equal or better talent:

 

Eli Manning - push

Brandon Jacobs - no

Madison Hedgecock - no

Plax Burress - yes

Amani Toomer - no

Jeremy Shockey - no

David Diehl - perhaps

Rich Seubert - no

Shaun O'Hara - likely

Chris Snee - no

Kareem McKenzie - no

 

Michael Strahan - no (though this is a tall order)

Barry Cofield - likely

Fred Robbins - no

Osi Umenyiora - no

Mathias Kiwanuka - no

Antonio Pierce - no

Aaron Ross - yes

Sam Madison - yes

James Butler - no (this is stunning; most of us hated Butler)

Gibril Wilson - perhaps.

 

 

Reese is a poor GM and this roster sucks. I hope (as the Giants seem to hope) that he's turned the corner, but he's still got a lot of work to do to put a roster together that's of equal talent to the one he was left with.

+1 great post

 

Compounding the issue is the holes have been filled largely by higher-priced free agents which then forces tough (and usually wrong) decisions on new contracts.

 

Linval Joseph and Black Unicorn earned their new contracts. Thurmond walked to Philly and did a nice job converting to safety.

 

Reese misses more than he hits, and much more than he admits.

[Tempest]

+1 great post

 

Compounding the issue is the holes have been filled largely by higher-priced free agents which then forces tough (and usually wrong) decisions on new contracts.

 

Linval Joseph and Black Unicorn earned their new contracts. Thurmond walked to Philly and did a nice job converting to safety.

 

Reese misses more than he hits, and much more than he admits.

 

A nice job converting to safety? He did ok for staying healthy for 16 games and I certainly didn't think he would last the season. I don't feel bad at all about Thurmond leaving and Linval Joseph is going to bother me until we get his replacement.

[Treehugger]

 

Tree... Tree, Tree Tree. You are needlessly overcomplicating this issue. First, with the exception of his not very noteworthy rookie season, Randle has been our #2. Second, Toomer was our #1 for many seasons. Third, these designations don't even matter.

 

And the relevance of one season, that was Amani Toomer's next to last year as a professional football player, compared with this past season of Randle's performance... it's even less relevant. This is like the moving goal post comparison.

 

When comparing draft picks, you are comparing the comprehensive contributions of a player to the team over their Giants' career.

 

Amani Toomer is the Giants' all-time leader in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs. He is 5th all-time in franchise history in terms of ALL TDs.

 

He is right behind (on the latter stat)... Brandon Jacobs.

There is no comparison to be made. Randle has had four seasons and a large contingent of the team doesn't want to retain his services. He is a sloppy route runner, quits on plays, and has contributed more to Eli's interception total than any single player, and probably more than all players combined during his tenure here. In between, he's had some good moments, but far to few to justify him as being even a "good" receiver.

 

Do you know what Amani Toomer did in his fourth year with the Giants? Which, by the way, was his first season where he had a significant role in the offense (first 3 seasons used primarily as a returner/specials)? 79 catches, 1183 yards and 6 TDs. And this was in 1999... where he was 10th in the NFL in receiving.

 

Further, in 1999 Toomer caught those 1183 yards out of the 4015 passing yards thrown from Kerry Collins and Kent Graham (9 starts). In contrast, Randle caught 797 yards of Eli Manning's 4,436 passing yards this year.

 

Further, in 1999 the entire NFL threw for 105,289 passing yards. 2015 NFL - 124,847. This goes to show you that yes, the NFL is more pass friendly than even Amani Toomer's era.

 

It is silly and ridiculous to compare the two. Rueben Randle doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Amani Toomer.

 

But back to the earlier point, you can't just pick out a single year of a player's performance and compare stats. Draft picks aren't measured that way... it's their cumulative contributions. And you don't need to do some over-thought analysis to see that Reese has sucked in replacing talent. Further, snaps are as fair a comparison as any, because injuries are, for the most part, somewhat normalized across all teams (and yes I know we are close to the worst in that regard over the past few seasons). But still, that much of a snap disparity is indicative that other teams are getting more playing time from their draft picks than the Giants are. Reese's performance has been a travesty.

 

And I can do the same thing with the Shockey comparison... which isn't exactly fair given that Shockey played during Eli's growing pains' years and still, for the most part, out-produced the TE's we have today. Shockey had two seasons where he had just a shade under 900 yards receiving. Now, I give you that the comparison is a lot closer, and Shockey wasn't exactly a homerun because he was a selfish player, but come on... he was a better player than Donnell. And Tye is an incomplete because we need to see more.

 

Jim. I didn't start the 2007 vs 2015 comparison, I'm just sticking to the original argument.

 

I also compare Toomer to Cruz, not Randle. Beckham + Cruz + Randle >> Burress + Toomer + ??? (Hixon?)

 

My "over-thought analysis" is merely an exercise in objectivity. Something foreign to these boards, I know.