Time to start talking QBs

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

3 hours ago, mastershake said:

So the Giants Twitter and Subreddit feeds right now are basically a back and forth between people who think if you draft a QB, you can't address the OL in the offseason (for some reason, both can't be addressed), versus people who think you can definitely address both a QB and OL in the offseason. I obviously think the former are morons.

I continue to post there, sarcastically talking to them as if they're morons: "There's this thing in the NFL offseason called free agency. Each year, a number of players in the NFL have their contracts expire and they're free to sign with other teams. Also, the NFL draft consists of seven rounds, not just one. Additionally, there's also this thing called trades; two or more teams can mutually come to terms to exchange players and/or draft picks."

Jesus that is so rich.  I come across them too bro... in my disabled state, I don't have the time or energy for their stupid bullshit.  Too funny.  Keep trolling along.  We have forgotten more on Tuesday than they learned in the entirety of their lives.

[Sephiroth]

6 hours ago, mastershake said:

So the Giants Twitter and Subreddit feeds right now are basically a back and forth between people who think if you draft a QB, you can't address the OL in the offseason (for some reason, both can't be addressed), versus people who think you can definitely address both a QB and OL in the offseason. I obviously think the former are morons.

I continue to post there, sarcastically talking to them as if they're morons: "There's this thing in the NFL offseason called free agency. Each year, a number of players in the NFL have their contracts expire and they're free to sign with other teams. Also, the NFL draft consists of seven rounds, not just one. Additionally, there's also this thing called trades; two or more teams can mutually come to terms to exchange players and/or draft picks."

 

2 hours ago, TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt said:

Jesus that is so rich.  I come across them too bro... in my disabled state, I don't have the time or energy for their stupid bullshit.  Too funny.  Keep trolling along.  We have forgotten more on Tuesday than they learned in the entirety of their lives.

I don't understand the "wait till your team is good to draft a QB" crowd either. You need a top-5 pick to land a good QB in the draft; if you wait till you're even an 8-8 team you're looking at giving up multiple first rounders over multiple years to take a guy that may not even be the guy. It makes zero sense.

If you need a QB, and you have a high pick and there's a franchise QB there, you draft him. It's a no-brainer.

[gmenroc]

1 hour ago, Sephiroth said:

 

I don't understand the "wait till your team is good to draft a QB" crowd either. You need a top-5 pick to land a good QB in the draft; if you wait till you're even an 8-8 team you're looking at giving up multiple first rounders over multiple years to take a guy that may not even be the guy. It makes zero sense.

If you need a QB, and you have a high pick and there's a franchise QB there, you draft him. It's a no-brainer.

That's enough "ifs" to call it a case by case basis.  It's why teams put a round value on a player and why mocks are done.  

But there is a fine line between overdrafting a player due their position and ranking the premium positions (pass rush, qb, left tackle, etc).

You look at your needs, you shore them up in FA to avoid HAVING to draft a specific position...giving yourself flexibility on draft day.  Then, you hope to draft 1 or 2 day one starters and the rest to step into starting roles in a year or two.

[Sephiroth]

4 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

That's enough "ifs" to call it a case by case basis.  It's why teams put a round value on a player and why mocks are done.  

But there is a fine line between overdrafting a player due their position and ranking the premium positions (pass rush, qb, left tackle, etc).

You look at your needs, you shore them up in FA to avoid HAVING to draft a specific position...giving yourself flexibility on draft day.  Then, you hope to draft 1 or 2 day one starters and the rest to step into starting roles in a year or two.

Oh absolutely.  I laughed my ass off at San Francisco giving up a king's ransom to get Trey Lance... and it's also why we never should have drafted Daniel Jones in the first place.  

 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

5 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

 

I don't understand the "wait till your team is good to draft a QB" crowd either. You need a top-5 pick to land a good QB in the draft; if you wait till you're even an 8-8 team you're looking at giving up multiple first rounders over multiple years to take a guy that may not even be the guy. It makes zero sense.

If you need a QB, and you have a high pick and there's a franchise QB there, you draft him. It's a no-brainer.

Exactly bro... you pays your money and you takes your chances.  Roll the dice.

[gmenroc]

Drafting DJ was a product of two things and it's debatable in what order we would place them. 

First was the Eli effect.  Just gonna say it...he is white, smart, pocket passer who has some athletic ability who despite the on field fallacies, carries himself very well off the field.  You aren't gonna hear of him jerking off on a masseuse anytime soon I wouldn't think.  He isn't going to be a PR nightmare and I really think ownership is more than willing to sacrifice on field ability if they can be assured of off field...normalcy, for lack of a better word.

Secondly it was timing.  I don't recall Jones having a ton of other QBs in his class, but could be mistaken.  I seem to remember it being a weak group overall which in and of itself pushed him into the 1st round.  Same can be said for when his rookie deal was up.  He had one good, full season and Giants were shit outta options other than to start fresh, but they weren't gonna do that after he supposedly put it all together.

For my money, I was waiting for him to win with his arm only.  Put a couple 75% completion, 300+ yard games in a row with fewer than 50 rushing yards.  There was movement in that direction, but not enough before we had to pay him.

I will give our current FO a lot of credit in giving the team an out after two years cause that hedge is gonna save us in the long run it seems.

 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

18 hours ago, gmenroc said:

Drafting DJ was a product of two things and it's debatable in what order we would place them. 

First was the Eli effect.  Just gonna say it...he is white, smart, pocket passer who has some athletic ability who despite the on field fallacies, carries himself very well off the field.  You aren't gonna hear of him jerking off on a masseuse anytime soon I wouldn't think.  He isn't going to be a PR nightmare and I really think ownership is more than willing to sacrifice on field ability if they can be assured of off field...normalcy, for lack of a better word.

Secondly it was timing.  I don't recall Jones having a ton of other QBs in his class, but could be mistaken.  I seem to remember it being a weak group overall which in and of itself pushed him into the 1st round.  Same can be said for when his rookie deal was up.  He had one good, full season and Giants were shit outta options other than to start fresh, but they weren't gonna do that after he supposedly put it all together.

For my money, I was waiting for him to win with his arm only.  Put a couple 75% completion, 300+ yard games in a row with fewer than 50 rushing yards.  There was movement in that direction, but not enough before we had to pay him.

I will give our current FO a lot of credit in giving the team an out after two years cause that hedge is gonna save us in the long run it seems.

 

I agree with this assessment.  Having an Eli type who was/is good with the NYC media is huge.  The Giants also wanted a stable White guy at QB.  Now they will have to adapt to the current situation and stop being the 1950s Yankees and Red Sox.  Go with the best available QB who can pass/run with relative ease, while always looking downfield for the big play/score.  Not tuck it down and run like a second RB once his first read is covered

 

[gmenroc]

To be fair, DJ is a shell shocked David Carr now.  It wasn't entirely his fault that he had constant pressure.  Couple that with the ability to run and it makes sense he tucks and runs shortly after first or second read.

He was a 2nd or 3rd round QB waaaayyyy overdrafted and thrust into a role the team wasn't ready to support.  

Had he come in and sat for a year or two like many 2nd or 3rd round guys do, developed and not have to play behind a line that had been outright neglected, his story may have been different.

Irrelevant at this point because experience and injury have shaped him into a borderline starter at best, practice squad at worst.  Likely falls into a career backup role that gets a shot to flash one more time with some other team when their starter goes down and by then, he won't have young legs to rely on.

[Virginia Giant]

The problem is looking back on it, I think a lot of us thought Eli’s age was getting to him and his talent fading. When it could likely be he had some good years left and the ownerships inability to put a competent front office together fucked him out of those years and a no question first ballot HOF resume. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

5 hours ago, gmenroc said:

To be fair, DJ is a shell shocked David Carr now.  It wasn't entirely his fault that he had constant pressure.  Couple that with the ability to run and it makes sense he tucks and runs shortly after first or second read.

He was a 2nd or 3rd round QB waaaayyyy overdrafted and thrust into a role the team wasn't ready to support.  

Had he come in and sat for a year or two like many 2nd or 3rd round guys do, developed and not have to play behind a line that had been outright neglected, his story may have been different.

Irrelevant at this point because experience and injury have shaped him into a borderline starter at best, practice squad at worst.  Likely falls into a career backup role that gets a shot to flash one more time with some other team when their starter goes down and by then, he won't have young legs to rely on.

 

1 hour ago, Virginia Giant said:

The problem is looking back on it, I think a lot of us thought Eli’s age was getting to him and his talent fading. When it could likely be he had some good years left and the ownerships inability to put a competent front office together fucked him out of those years and a no question first ballot HOF resume. 

The Giants have been too conservative for their own good, going back to the late 60s.  I have watched most of it from 1968. it is abysmal to tell you the truth.  With a decent o line Eli could have closed out his career in at least one or two Championship games if not a Super Bowl.  DJ is a career number 2 QB at best that was way over drafted.  The Maras have been great for the league and only okay for the Giants.  Too bad they are not the Rooney's in Pittsburgh.  The other owners of the Giants have been hands off the football side of things since they paid for their half.  The only thing they have intervened on is two big coaching changes the last 15 years or so.  It will take a total rebuild and a new mindset.  I am not a fan of the Mara's and their mindset.  They remind of the 80s/90s Knicks where if you make the playoffs every few years or so it is great stuff.  Get that one guy and never get the two other guys that make the machine go.    Every eight to ten years or so they catch lightning in a bottle and go all the way.  The Giants easily should have had two or three additional Super Bowl wins during my 55 years of watching them.

[Iceman_NYG]

Giants have completely fucked up both DJ and Barkley by over drafting them and giving them ZERO help. Both of them ended up getting pummelled, had injuries - basically, I would like to visualize what DJ or Barkley could have been say behind an Eagles or 49ers type of Oline.

DJ got his bag due to a stroke of luck with timing, Barkley shouldve taken his extension when offered mid-season plus the overall RB value is dipping. But if anything, in this lost season, Barkley has been one of the few players playing hard.

[gmenroc]

Barkley has been playing as if auditioning...and can't blame him.  I don't see the Giants tagging him the 2nd time...my bet is he plays elsewhere next year.

We have DJ next year regardless, likely to start, with a 1st or 2nd round rookie to replace Tyrod.

[BlueInCanada]

6 hours ago, Iceman_NYG said:

Giants have completely fucked up both DJ and Barkley by over drafting them and giving them ZERO help. Both of them ended up getting pummelled, had injuries - basically, I would like to visualize what DJ or Barkley could have been say behind an Eagles or 49ers type of Oline.

DJ got his bag due to a stroke of luck with timing, Barkley shouldve taken his extension when offered mid-season plus the overall RB value is dipping. But if anything, in this lost season, Barkley has been one of the few players playing hard.

The thing about the "no help" argument is it's not like the Giants haven't tried.

The Giants have drafted more Oline the top 10/first two round than ANY team the last 15 years. 

I believe I read on Reddit the Giants have taken more Oline in the top 15 than the entire AFC the last 10 years lol  

And I understand the draft is sometimes a crap shot, but there's a serious systemic problem the last decade amount the Giants that they can't develop or acquire talent.

 

[Iceman_NYG]

3 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

The thing about the "no help" argument is it's not like the Giants haven't tried.

The Giants have drafted more Oline the top 10/first two round than ANY team the last 15 years. 

I believe I read on Reddit the Giants have taken more Oline in the top 15 than the entire AFC the last 10 years lol  

And I understand the draft is sometimes a crap shot, but there's a serious systemic problem the last decade amount the Giants that they can't develop or acquire talent.

 

Yeah I know. I had mentioned this earlier. The entire Oline scouting staff and coach over the last 8-10 years need to be shot. How does every guy go to another team and become servicable or a starter?? Ereck Flowes?? Seriously?? Fix the fucking trenches! Eagles and 9ers have done that. But the Ravens man - that is a team i envy in terms of team building

[Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

The thing about the "no help" argument is it's not like the Giants haven't tried.

The Giants have drafted more Oline the top 10/first two round than ANY team the last 15 years. 

I believe I read on Reddit the Giants have taken more Oline in the top 15 than the entire AFC the last 10 years lol  

And I understand the draft is sometimes a crap shot, but there's a serious systemic problem the last decade amount the Giants that they can't develop or acquire talent.

 

That's what I mean when I say hope is not a strategy. We just drafted 4 linemen in the past 3 years and while I'll give JMC the benefit of the doubt, we can't go into next season hoping Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan are going to suddenly develop into NFL caliber players. We need to get capable starters at 4 o-line spots this offseason just like every other year, not "hope" that one of our guys who sucks suddenly un-sucks.

2 hours ago, Iceman_NYG said:

Yeah I know. I had mentioned this earlier. The entire Oline scouting staff and coach over the last 8-10 years need to be shot. How does every guy go to another team and become servicable or a starter?? Ereck Flowes?? Seriously?? Fix the fucking trenches! Eagles and 9ers have done that. But the Ravens man - that is a team i envy in terms of team building

Joe Hortiz was my #1 target in the last GM search for a reason. Their draft philosophy is the same as the Eagles, "draft the best guy available, don't reach, don't try to get cute, pick guys in later rounds who fell." If a talented guy falls into your lap but isn't a scheme fit, draft the guy and change your scheme, not the other way around.

[BlueInCanada]

4 hours ago, Iceman_NYG said:

Yeah I know. I had mentioned this earlier. The entire Oline scouting staff and coach over the last 8-10 years need to be shot. How does every guy go to another team and become servicable or a starter?? Ereck Flowes?? Seriously?? Fix the fucking trenches! Eagles and 9ers have done that. But the Ravens man - that is a team i envy in terms of team building

I don't know if it's Mara and his old boys club he runs in the scouting/player acquisition department but something is broken in the Giants FO.

Why do I hear about this "Giants culture" bullshit when looking for players, that they value big, fast, leadership type guys.

Just draft or sign the fucker who can play the game I don't care if he fits in with some outdated set of values. Sure don't go get a idiot like Toney but a guy like Tunsil falls I'm the draft don't pass him buy because he smoke weed lol 

Hopefully Schoen can change things but if Mara has his way probably not.  

[Mr. P]

Giants culture is winning a Super Bowl every decade since the 80s.  We have until the 2029 season to keep the streak alive. 

[BlueInCanada]

47 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

Giants culture is winning a Super Bowl every decade since the 80s.  We have until the 2029 season to keep the streak alive. 

That was the old Man's culture and team his hires built.

JR so far has a decade of losing lol 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

13 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

The thing about the "no help" argument is it's not like the Giants haven't tried.

The Giants have drafted more Oline the top 10/first two round than ANY team the last 15 years. 

I believe I read on Reddit the Giants have taken more Oline in the top 15 than the entire AFC the last 10 years lol  

And I understand the draft is sometimes a crap shot, but there's a serious systemic problem the last decade amount the Giants that they can't develop or acquire talent.

 

Bad O line coaching for years.... it is terrible.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

11 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

That's what I mean when I say hope is not a strategy. We just drafted 4 linemen in the past 3 years and while I'll give JMC the benefit of the doubt, we can't go into next season hoping Neal, Ezeudu, and McKethan are going to suddenly develop into NFL caliber players. We need to get capable starters at 4 o-line spots this offseason just like every other year, not "hope" that one of our guys who sucks suddenly un-sucks.

Joe Hortiz was my #1 target in the last GM search for a reason. Their draft philosophy is the same as the Eagles, "draft the best guy available, don't reach, don't try to get cute, pick guys in later rounds who fell." If a talented guy falls into your lap but isn't a scheme fit, draft the guy and change your scheme, not the other way around.

This was the WAY during the Young and Acorsi years... draft the best available athlete.  Can you imagine an LT today... this iteration of assholes would let the Egals draft him while over reaching for some QB, OL and/or WR like Toney instead. 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

8 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

I don't know if it's Mara and his old boys club he runs in the scouting/player acquisition department but something is broken in the Giants FO.

Why do I hear about this "Giants culture" bullshit when looking for players, that they value big, fast, leadership type guys.

Just draft or sign the fucker who can play the game I don't care if he fits in with some outdated set of values. Sure don't go get a idiot like Toney but a guy like Tunsil falls I'm the draft don't pass him buy because he smoke weed lol 

Hopefully Schoen can change things but if Mara has his way probably not.  

The Mara family has been one of the worst things for the Giants.. but are great for the NFL.  At least Wellington Mara tried to win sometimes...

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

6 hours ago, Mr. P said:

Giants culture is winning a Super Bowl every decade since the 80s.  We have until the 2029 season to keep the streak alive. 

 

5 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

That was the old Man's culture and team his hires built.

JR so far has a decade of losing lol 

That was Weliington is right... the current Mara... not so much.