JPP

[CrazedDogs]

We often talk about incentive laden contracts but don't often see them. What happens is guys feel that the team is keeping them from reaching the incentive. Not a wise thing to do in a team sport with so many variables.

 

Good point. But the exception that proves the rule is Andy Dalton, whose absurd "$100 million" contract only really pays $100 million if he's playing at a Pro Bowl level.

 

Dallas is trying an extreme version of this with Dez too.

[Nas]

 

We'd be fools the break the bank for him too.

 

He's a nice player but he's no Michael Strahan, and I'd argue he's not even an Osi.

 

No fuck Osi... dude mastered the art of running himself out of the play...

[Sephiroth]

Define impact, because to me apart from beckham in the second half, who on this team actually made an impact. Eli already sucks most of the cap up. We pay rolle big money to take imaginary photos and miss tackles and cruz has been hurt.

 

Franchise him, cut rolle, pay prince. If jpp isnt worth it after next year,then look across theline and pay hankins, who may end being the better player

 

I'll define impact: the strip sack.

 

The guy before JPP was good for about four or five of those per season. Many of those were game changing, and happened when we were actually playing for something. Hell, sometimes he picked the ball up and ran it in for a touchdown.

 

When has JPP had a strip sack in a big game? Hell, I'd take a sack on 3rd down in a game that meant something.

 

I'll agree we don't have players that make an impact... but that shouldn't mean we overpay those non-impact guys when their contract is up.

[gmenroc]

Being the top DE in the league against the run isn't game changing or impactful? I will say, he should not be the highest paid DE in the league given his struggles against higher level opponents...but let's not pretend he is easily replaceable either. He's a top 10 DE easily and potentially top 5 once he has someone on the other end that outplays Kiwi.

 

If I'm the Giants, I'm offering top 7 or 8 money. I don't care how much we actually offer him, there is going to be a team out there able to pay him more. If he's all about the money, he'll be gone. That's been clear for a whole host of players...Tuck, Osi, Linval Joseph, Steve Smith (ours, not the asshole), Ballard, Bennett, etc. We'll see whether JPP is about himself (the money) or the team soon enough.

 

This offseason will be huge in terms of the future of the Giants.

--Coughlin entering final year of contract

--Antrel Rolle free agent

--JPP free agent

--Eli entering final year of contract

[Nas]

Being the top DE in the league against the run isn't game changing or impactful? I will say, he should not be the highest paid DE in the league given his struggles against higher level opponents...but let's not pretend he is easily replaceable either. He's a top 10 DE easily and potentially top 5 once he has someone on the other end that outplays Kiwi.

 

If I'm the Giants, I'm offering top 7 or 8 money. I don't care how much we actually offer him, there is going to be a team out there able to pay him more. If he's all about the money, he'll be gone. That's been clear for a whole host of players...Tuck, Osi, Linval Joseph, Steve Smith (ours, not the asshole), Ballard, Bennett, etc. We'll see whether JPP is about himself (the money) or the team soon enough.

 

This offseason will be huge in terms of the future of the Giants.

--Coughlin entering final year of contract

--Antrel Rolle free agent

--JPP free agent

--Eli entering final year of contract

 

I'm afraid JPP will command more than $8M.. not because he's worth than that but because there are always the Raiders and NFC East teams who'd just drive up the price.. the same way we'll do with Dez Bryant...

[gmenroc]

 

I'm afraid JPP will command more than $8M.. not because he's worth than that but because there are always the Raiders and NFC East teams who'd just drive up the price.. the same way we'll do with Dez Bryant...

 

I said top 7 or 8 money (as in making JPP the 7th or 8th highest paid DE)...not necessarily 7 or 8 million dollars.

 

EDIT: According to Spotrac, 8th highest DE is at 9 million while 7th highest is at 9.25 million (cap hit, not necessarily salary). For comparison, JPP has a 4.6 million cap hit this year. I'd have no problem offering an average of 8 million per year with incentives (some easy to achieve, some difficult) that could take him up to 9 or 9.5 per year...over the next 4 or 5 years.

[Nas]

 

I said top 7 or 8 money (as in making JPP the 7th or 8th highest paid DE)...not necessarily 7 or 8 million dollars.

 

EDIT: According to Spotrac, 8th highest DE is at 9 million while 7th highest is at 9.25 million (cap hit, not necessarily salary). For comparison, JPP has a 4.6 million cap hit this year. I'd have no problem offering an average of 8 million per year with incentives (some easy to achieve, some difficult) that could take him up to 9 or 9.5 per year...over the next 4 or 5 years.

 

Oh I see..

[boohyah]

Seph, I wouldn't lose much sleep if we didn't resign JPP, but it seems that the organization thinks more of him than I do and based on the fact that he's had injuries and not performed on a high level like year 2, the Giants might just want to risk the franchise for one year and either he plays well to earn an extension or cut him loose.

 

The fact that he's playing well against weak teams should not be frowned on like this, he supposed to play well and he has, fair is fair. He's been up against a lot of top tackles this year who are shutting down a lot of top defensive ends, not just JPP. I do think mentally at times he checks out and I honestly don't think he's the brightest spark.

 

As for Impact, he along with the others on this team the last 3 years have made no impact worth a fuck, something along the lines of Cruz's touchdown against the Jets. However when guys like Eli, Cruz and Rolle are getting paid, it's hard to justify not trying to do something about JPP, I mean Rolle has sucked this year, sucked and runs his mouth, that's it.

 

IMO the priority this offseason in terms of FA's is resign Prince, then handle JPP in that order and send fucking Rolle to the Raiders.

[boohyah]

I don't know what the fuck is going on with the quote deal.

 

Gmen, I think Eli will probably get extended at the end of the season and have this years salary restructured to make more cap space.

 

Coughlin is going nowhere. The coaching hasn't been great but this year more than ever the players aren't good enough. He'll get another year.

 

Rolle has got to roll out of here.

[gmenroc]

I don't know what the fuck is going on with the quote deal.

 

Gmen, I think Eli will probably get extended at the end of the season and have this years salary restructured to make more cap space.

 

Coughlin is going nowhere. The coaching hasn't been great but this year more than ever the players aren't good enough. He'll get another year.

 

Rolle has got to roll out of here.

 

I think Eli SHOULD be extended...but the issue there is at what cost. Do you lower his cap hit? Do you pay him in line with his performance...not top 5 in the league?

 

Agreed Coughlin should be extended. I think while nobody is admitting to it, they're hoping for McAdoo to prove himself. Just seems like it'd fit and it'd be a smoother transition. The now-customary 1 year extension would be in order.

 

And Rolle, yes, it's time for a vet minimum type deal or walking papers. I won't argue that he's been overpaid over the course of his contract though.

[mastershake]

If JPP's price is something like 6 years and under 40 million (avg of ~6- 6.5mm per year), I can live with that and would resign him (next years Salary cap is projected to be nearly 138 million, so the % against the cap is rather small). If it starts to get up to say an average of 8mm-10mm per year, then he's not worth it.

 

I expect some other team or teams to give JPP a lucrative offer, such as 6 years 65 million, or something to that effect, so I expect JPP to be elsewhere next season, unless Giant management is dumb enough to pay that price.

[gmenroc]

It seems most here are in agreement that 10 million per year cap hit is pretty much the line not to cross. With Rolle's salary coming off the books, hopefully some cap relief from Eli's extension, and the increase in the cap itself...I think we could swing 10 mil per...but that's top of the line and I don't think we should start at that point.

[CrazedDogs]

Can anybody name ten better defensive ends than JPP?

[Nas]

 

I think Eli SHOULD be extended...but the issue there is at what cost. Do you lower his cap hit? Do you pay him in line with his performance...not top 5 in the league?

 

Agreed Coughlin should be extended. I think while nobody is admitting to it, they're hoping for McAdoo to prove himself. Just seems like it'd fit and it'd be a smoother transition. The now-customary 1 year extension would be in order.

 

And Rolle, yes, it's time for a vet minimum type deal or walking papers. I won't argue that he's been overpaid over the course of his contract though.

 

I'm not seeing the McAdoo HC link... not sure where that's coming from. He needs a few years under his belt being an HC first... and Coughlin hasn't indicated he wants to retire... once you make an upgrade at DC & SC (strength and conditioning), then things should be smooth again... nothing against McAdoo of course but I want to see him shine at OC... and even then why move someone who's done very well at his current position and then have to look for a replacement?

[Nas]

Can anybody name ten better defensive ends than JPP?

 

Not the issue... I think he needs to be consistent... and I'm resigned the fact he doesn't make a good leader of the D which I feel is the #1 priority... we need an Antonio Peirce/Michael Strahan out there.

[Tempest]

 

Not the issue... I think he needs to be consistent... and I'm resigned the fact he doesn't make a good leader of the D which I feel is the #1 priority... we need an Antonio Peirce/Michael Strahan out there.

 

It should be something to consider because if we just let JPP walk that is just another hole that needs to be filled and most likely we get a player not at that level which will bring down the rest of the defense. Hankins and Kennard are new standouts on defense this season and when we get a healthy secondary back, this defense could start living up to its potential. If we get a new defensive coordinator it might even start looking like a Giants Defense.

[mastershake]

Can anybody name ten better defensive ends than JPP?

 

It shouldn't be determined by a simple ranking. It has to do more with, what kind of player should I pay 10mm+ or X dollar ammount per year for? (and that's on the low side; likely, some team will offer JPP more) What kind of impact does that money warrant? For example, here are guys worth that amount, which have that level of impact:

 

Here are guys currently worth 10mm+ per year (providing that impact value to their team for the price, in the current year), for example, on defense (OLB/DE, DT/DE, and DE):

 

JJ Watt

 

Elvis Dumvervil

 

Justin Houston

 

Von Miller

 

Mario Williams

 

Charles Johnson

 

Ryan Kerrigan

 

Robert Quinn

 

Cameron Wake

 

Mo Wilkerson

 

Connor Barwin

 

Calais Campbell

[CrazedDogs]

 

Not the issue... I think he needs to be consistent... and I'm resigned the fact he doesn't make a good leader of the D which I feel is the #1 priority... we need an Antonio Peirce/Michael Strahan out there.

 

 

okay, so Nas thinks relative value is not the issue in salary or contract negotiations. Noted! I'll keep that in my back pocket for future discussions....

[CrazedDogs]

 

It shouldn't be determined by a simple ranking. It has to do more with, what kind of player should I pay 10mm+ or X dollar ammount per year for? (and that's on the low side; likely, some team will offer JPP more) What kind of impact does that money warrant? For example, here are guys worth that amount, which have that level of impact:

 

Here are guys currently worth 10mm+ per year (providing that impact value to their team for the price, in the current year), for example, on defense (OLB/DE, DT/DE, and DE):

 

(list of very good defensive players redacted for brevity)

 

Not sure what you think we are determining; all I was getting at by asking the 'name ten better' question was what some team will be willing to offer him. And that in itself is agnostic on the question of whether or not the Giants should meet that price.

[mastershake]

 

Not sure what you think we are determining; all I was getting at by asking the 'name ten better' question was what some team will be willing to offer him. And that in itself is agnostic on the question of whether or not the Giants should meet that price.

 

Fair enough.

 

Teams in professional sports sometimes do weird things on player spending valuations. Sometimes they'll overpay a guy who had a stellar impact season 2-3 years ago, yet has fallen off since. Their rationale is "We can get this guy back to where he was." For this reason, I believe some team will pay JPP and put a premium for that performance (read in their minds as potential), rather than weight how he's performed over recent years.

 

For me, I don't believe JPP will get back to that prior form. I think he's a good player. I just don't value him at 10mm+; I don't think the impact he has correlates with that value.

[CrazedDogs]

And for what its worth, there are several players on that list that haven't come close to matching JPP's production at his high end, and/or have been similarly inconsistent.

 

JJ Watt

 

Elvis Dumvervil

 

Justin Houston

 

Von Miller

 

Mario Williams

 

Charles Johnson

 

Ryan Kerrigan

 

Robert Quinn

 

Cameron Wake

 

Mo Wilkerson

 

Connor Barwin

 

Calais Campbell

 

Whether due to age or production, there is not a chance in hell any of the crossed out players are worth more on the open market than JPP.

[mastershake]

And for what its worth, there are several players on that list that haven't come close to matching JPP's production at his high end, and/or have been similarly inconsistent.

 

 

Whether due to age or production, there is not a chance in hell any of the crossed out players are worth more on the open market than JPP.

 

At his high end when? I was listing our current year player performance, and what 10mm might be worth (or have been worth) considering.

 

Again, JPP in his 2nd year outdoes nearly all of these guys, except maybe two, and is definitely valued at over 10mm. I just don't think his performance lately warrants that valuation, although some team will pay him that.

[Tempest]

 

Fair enough.

 

Teams in professional sports sometimes do weird things on player spending valuations. Sometimes they'll overpay a guy who had a stellar impact season 2-3 years ago, yet has fallen off since. Their rationale is "We can get this guy back to where he was." For this reason, I believe some team will pay JPP and put a premium for that performance (read in their minds as potential), rather than weight how he's performed over recent years.

 

For me, I don't believe JPP will get back to that prior form. I think he's a good player. I just don't value him at 10mm+; I don't think the impact he has correlates with that value.

 

I don't see him as a $10 miliion per season player and honestly I don't think there is a defensive player worth that. I expect JPP to command anywhere from 7 to 9 million and that is actually reasonable.

[CrazedDogs]

 

At his high end when? I was listing our current year player performance, and what 10mm might be worth (or have been worth) considering.

 

Again, JPP in his 2nd year outdoes nearly all of these guys, except maybe two, and is definitely valued at over 10mm. I just don't think his performance lately warrants that valuation, although some team will pay him that.

 

High end this season: 9.5 sacks, and he leads all defensive lineman in tackles.

 

 

 

I don't see him as a $10 miliion per season player and honestly I don't think there is a defensive player worth that. I expect JPP to command anywhere from 7 to 9 million and that is actually reasonable.

 

I expect him to command somewhat more than that. And while I argue that a lot of you guys are underestimating what he is going to be offered, I think I agree with your point that it doesn't make sense to pay any defensive player $10 million+ per season.

[gmenroc]

 

I'm not seeing the McAdoo HC link... not sure where that's coming from. He needs a few years under his belt being an HC first... and Coughlin hasn't indicated he wants to retire... once you make an upgrade at DC & SC (strength and conditioning), then things should be smooth again... nothing against McAdoo of course but I want to see him shine at OC... and even then why move someone who's done very well at his current position and then have to look for a replacement?

 

The McAdoo HC link is more a gut feeling than anything else. I'd be less inclined to think it if they had brought him in and been more reluctant in the changes offensively. Sure, they'd have let him run his system, but there'd be a heavier influence or there'd seem to be a heavier influence from previous OC, Gilbride. Instead, they seemed to turn the keys over to him more or less and let him have more freedom than they might have if they only thought of him as a coordinator. I'm probably reading too much into it, but that's kinda the idea as to why he's thought of by some as a future Coughlin replacement.

 

And certainly, McAdoo needs more time - which is precisely the reason why I think Coughlin returns next season. Giants ownership have a franchise QB. I would imagine that they would want the franchise QB to bridge the change in coaches and the next head coach to bridge the QB change after Eli.

 

Further, I vaguely remember McAdoo being labeled as a coach on the rise...someone who was trending upward in the coaching ranks. If he's a hot commodity, I'm guessing he's a hot commodity for a reason. I would have to believe that if McAdoo has success next year, he'll get some head coaching interviews. Reducing the turnovers Eli had. Taking some credit for getting Beckham the ball (warranted or unwarranted). If he has two years of upgrading an offense...then someone will look his way. I would guess too, that when he chose the Giants - he saw an older head coach and at least thought of the possibility of taking over for Coughlin...and that very well may have played into his decision to come to NY.

 

So really, you're right. He's not ready to be a HC in 2015. If Coughlin were to retire this offseason, it'd be damning for McAdoo given he'd likely have to find a new team. And for that reason, it's good that Coughlin has not hinted at retirement yet. My thoughts are, that the Giants have a plan to move McAdoo into the HC spot, but they'll have to prepare for the case where for whatever reason...another team snaps him up, Coughlin hangs on longer than expected, McAdoo fails at the OC spot, etc....McAdoo doesn't work out.