A Shockey Trade Deal Still Cooking?

[Storm]

definitely intended for burress, either shockey ran the wrong route or eli forgot what play was called.

[NeMesiS]

I think it's pretty clear that the pass was intended for Burress. It would have been a tough catch since Tillman was on top of him and the safety was closing fast, but the ball was picked off by a defender that should not have been there. That's been my point from the beginning...

I think hard to assume that because it looks like LB were playing zone all the way. So regarless if Shockey ran a curl or a out route, Urlacher was going to be there waiting for the ball. This is why I tell you we should stop running curl routes with Shockey. I've notice for a while now that team are just sitting on the route. Ok, ok...for get about Shockey for a moment. Lets talk about Boss for a minute. The samething happen to him when he was playing. all he did was curls routes... The only plays he made was when he didn't run a curl route because he caught the defense by surprise. So forget that fact the Shockey is on the team or not... I really think Gilbrite should expand the rolle of the TE position on this team.

[Treehugger]

... I really think Gilbrite should expand the rolle of the TE position on this team.

I really think Gilbride should be flipping burgers next season.

[JMFP]

I really think Gilbride should be flipping burgers next season.

 

He got us 2 TD's against the best 4th quarter defense in NFL history.

[Money]

I think hard to assume that because it looks like LB were playing zone all the way. So regarless if Shockey ran a curl or a out route, Urlacher was going to be there waiting for the ball. This is why I tell you we should stop running curl routes with Shockey. I've notice for a while now that team are just sitting on the route. Ok, ok...for get about Shockey for a moment. Lets talk about Boss for a minute. The samething happen to him when he was playing. all he did was curls routes... The only plays he made was when he didn't run a curl route because he caught the defense by surprise. So forget that fact the Shockey is on the team or not... I really think Gilbrite should expand the rolle of the TE position on this team.

 

Here's what we can tell from the play. The Giants ran a play action from a singleback 3-WR set. Shockey was lined up slot left. Ward and (ironically) the TE Matthews stay in to block -- more or less a max protect with 7 blockers. Toomer is the flanker and we cannot tell what route he runs; however, because of the proximity of Burress and Shockey, it's clear they were running some time of combo route. Since only three eligible receivers went out on the play, it stands to reason that either Shockey or Burress was in the wrong spot.

 

Still, without an overhead view and complete knowledge of the defenders' pre-snap locations, it's impossible to say definitively what type of defense the Bears were playing. But Eli initimated after the game that the pass was intended for Burress, and the video seemingly confirms that. I sincerely doubt that the play design called for Shockey to sit down directly in the passing lane...

 

 

 

 

To your latter point, "All the TE runs is curl routes."

 

Even as hyperbole, that's so blatantly wrong that it's scary.

[Money]

I really think Gilbride should be flipping burgers next season.

 

Let it go, dude. Was our championship run not good enough for your liking?

 

You kinda remind me of George Costanza when his intelligence increases exponentially after he stops having sex. Without portent, he starts giving Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams hitting lessons, prompting Jeter to point out, "You know, we won the World Series last." Costanza's condescending reply? "Pfft. Six games."

[Treehugger]

Let it go, dude. Was our championship run not good enough for your liking?

 

You kinda remind me of George Costanza when his intelligence increases exponentially after he stops having sex. Without portent, he starts giving Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams hitting lessons, prompting to Jeter to point out, "You know, we won the World Series last." Costanza's condescending reply? "Pfft. Six games."

Really? You kind remind me of that kid we used to know called NYGMoney who skittered off to become an internet columnist until the site failed then came back to be a know-it-all jerk here.

 

My opinion is just that and I'll express it when and where-ever I please. I'm not here to subscribe to your column so drop the unwarranted tone of superiority, kiddo.

[Money]

Really? You kind remind me of that kid we used to know called NYGMoney who skittered off to become an internet columnist until the site failed then came back to be a know-it-all jerk here.

 

My opinion is just that and I'll express it when and where-ever I please. I'm not here to subscribe to your column so drop the unwarranted tone of superiority, kiddo.

 

Grow up, dude. You're here complaining that our OC should be fired after we won the Super Bowl -- not even bothering to support that claim with any type of argument beyond "Killdrive sux lol" -- yet I'm the so-called know-it-all with the tone of superiority. When I campaign for a coach to be unnecessarily fired and deliver unsubstantiated criticism of the play-calling in the process, then maybe those allegations would fit. Until then, I can think of a more appropriate recipient...

[Treehugger]

Grow up, dude. You're here complaining that our OC should be fired after we won the Super Bowl -- not even bothering to support that claim with any type of argument beyond "Killdrive sux lol" -- yet I'm the so-called know-it-all with the tone of superiority. When I campaign for a coach to be unnecessarily fired and deliver unsubstantiated criticism of the play-calling in the process, then maybe those allegations would fit. Until then, I can think of a more appropriate recipient...

Touch a nerve, did I?

 

I've delivered way more than just "Gilbride sucks" in this thread alone, not to mention the 278455 discussions we've had on this topic since the start of the season, discussions you weren't here for. Again, I'm expressing my opinion. If you disagree then fine but don't tell me I can't hold them. That's the whole point of this message board.

[boohyah]

Money, I want to hear you say this.

 

"it's possible, just possible Eli threw a bad pass there".

 

Because you're fighting too hard on this. Next thing you'll know the flag holder, the referee, everyone on the field will have been in the wrong place, cept for Eli.

 

 

[Money]

Touch a nerve, did I?

 

I've delivered way more than just "Gibride sucks" in this thread alone, not to mention the 278455 discussions we've had on this topic since the start of the season, discussions you weren't here for. Again, I'm expressing my opinion. If you disagree then fine but don't tell me I can't hold them. That's the whole point of this message board.

 

I think I touched the first nerve, George. And I didn't imply you weren't entitled to your opinion; I offered my opinion, which directly contrasted yours. And you proceeded to get bent out of shape and assiduously attack my character in an impressive display of passive-aggeressiveness. Well played. But I suppose it's fun to cry foul and explicate the honor of a message board shortly after abusing its privileges.

 

But I am interested in hearing why you feel Super Bowl champion Kevin Gilbride should be fired, if you wouldn't mind indulging me...

[Money]

Money, I want to hear you say this.

 

"it's possible, just possible Eli threw a bad pass there".

 

Because you're fighting too hard on this. Next thing you'll know the flag holder, the referee, everyone on the field will have been in the wrong place, cept for Eli.

 

I acknowledged that when I introduced the Bears INT to the discourse. Eli said after the game that the pass was intended for Burress and he expected Shockey to run a different route. And we know he's not a guy that throws his teammates under the bus (unlike someone else)...

 

[Treehugger]

I think I touched the first nerve, George. And I didn't imply you weren't entitled to your opinion; I offered my opinion, which directly contrasted yours. And you proceeded to get bent out of shape and assiduously attack my character in an impressive display of passive-aggeressiveness. Well played. But I suppose it's fun to cry foul and explicate the honor of a message board shortly after abusing its privileges.

 

But I am interested in hearing why you feel Super Bowl champion Kevin Gilbride should be fired, if you wouldn't mind indulging me...

'Let it go...you remind me of George Costanza' was offering your contrasting opinion? Interesting.

 

Short & Sweet: IMO Gilbride headed an offense that vastly underperformed for the majority of the season. Our D pulled us into the playoffs despite Gilbride's contributions, we didn't make it there because of him. I give him credit for steadying the ship late in the season but I don't think his tenure so far warrants renewal, SB or no. I don't think we should keep Tynes because he hit the third FG attempt after missing two and I don't think we should keep Gilbride for mishandling 2/3 of a season either. I expect more.

[boohyah]

I acknowledged that when I introduced the Bears INT to the discourse. Eli said after the game that the pass was intended for Burress and he expected Shockey to run a different route. And we know he's not a guy that throws his teammates under the bus (unlike someone else)...

 

Brandon Jacobs??

[Money]

'Let it go...you remind me of George Costanza' was offering your contrasting opinion? Interesting.

 

Short & Sweet: IMO Gilbride headed an offense that vastly underperformed for the majority of the season. Our D pulled us into the playoffs despite Gilbride's contributions, we didn't make it there because of him. I give him credit for steadying the ship late in the season but I don't think his tenure so far warrants renewal, SB or no. I don't think we should keep Tynes because he hit the third FG attempt after missing two and I don't think we should keep Gilbride for mishandling 2/3 of a season either. I expect more.

 

Yeah, believe it or not, it's possible to express opinions without being humorless.

 

Well, that begs the question: at what level did you expect our offense to perform?

 

On paper, we have a talented offense. But during the season, our QB was very hot and cold (which is very difficult to coach around), our top two RBs were oft-injured, our best offensive player was limited for the entire season, our second WR was coming off an ACL tear, our third WR missed 11 games, and the result was possibly the slowest collection of starting skill players in the league. We also led the league in dropped passes. Those are some extraordinarily challenging circumstances.

 

On a a more general note, this is Tom Coughlin's offense. It's his philosophy, his playbook, his terminology. As such, he oversees and participates in Gilbride's activities as the offensive coordinator. Any criticism of Gilbride's performance reflects poorly on Coughlin since (a) he and Gilbirde have a closely linked working relationship, (b) he's hired Gilbride on two separate occasions as his OC, thus demonstrating clear trust between the two, and © he fired Hufnagel, promoted Gilbride, and kept Gilbride for 2007 -- the year in which his job was on the line.

 

From an offensive standpoint, Tom and Gilbride are a packaged deal. So if you want Gilbride fired, how could want Coughlin to stay?

[Money]

Brandon Jacobs??

 

He'd be the literal answer because of his brute strength and burgeoning career as a super villain (though my inside source relayed that Jake prefers tying his victims to railroad tracks), but I was speaking metaphorically...

[Treehugger]

You were insulting me dude, stop trying to pretend otherwise. I'm not interested in a drawn-out bitching contest with you so I'll leave it there.

 

As to the offense clearly I expected more. As I've already discussed in this thread, I thought the playcalling was often puzzling if not frustrating, as did many others. I also think it's Gilbride's primary responsibility to get Eli playing comfortably and consistantly which he failed to do for most of the season. I don't know what you mean by "difficult to coach around"; he needed to address the problem not avoid it. Dropped passes and inconsistant QB play are coaching issues as much as they are player issues. Things got on track eventually but not soon enough to gain my confidence that he can keep us there.

 

The Gilbride & Coughlin argument is pretty weak. I'm sure Tom would survive the separation.

[Money]

You were insulting me dude, stop trying to pretend otherwise. I'm not interested in a drawn-out bitching contest with you so I'll leave it there.

 

As to the offense clearly I expected more. As I've already discussed in this thread, I thought the playcalling was often puzzling if not frustrating, as did many others. I also think it's Gilbride's primary responsibility to get Eli playing comfortably and consistantly which he failed to do for most of the season. I don't know what you mean by "difficult to coach around"; he needed to address the problem not avoid it. Dropped passes and inconsistant QB play are coaching issues as much as they are player issues. Things got on track eventually but not soon enough to gain my confidence that he can keep us there.

 

The Gilbride & Coughlin argument is pretty weak. I'm sure Tom would survive the separation.

 

I'm sorry you felt insulted.

 

What type of performance measures were you expecting?

 

If my many years of watching football has taught me anything, it's that critizing the play-calling is a very futile enterprise. We don't knwo enough about the offense, the defense, the checks, the audibles, the defensive adjustments, etc. to fairly evaluate the quality of the play call and the thought process behind the decision. Ultimately, judgments on the play-calling are essentially reflection of the success of the actual play, which is something largely determined by the player performance (i.e. execution), not the play itself. To quote Phil Simms:

 

That’s another reason why you have to be careful in making judgments, especially when it comes to calling plays. Coaches don’t call reverses just to be whimsical. They’re calling them for extremely calculated reasons that they have spent an unbelievable time figuring out.

 

This season, Eli's performance was Chris Palmer's responsibility, not Gilbride's (Palmer is the QBs coach). Also, it's difficult to coordinate an offense when you don't know what QB will show up, especially when the QB unpredictably shifts from good to bad during the game. How do you expect him to address the problem? Bench Eli and start Anthony Wright? And if dropping passes it a coaching issue, then it's an issue with Mike Pope (TEs coach) and Mike Sulllivan (WRs coach), not the OC. Factor in the injuries and the slow group of skill players, and it's pretty unfair to isolate Gilbride as the lone scapegoat.

 

Along those lines, it's Tom's offense. He has just as much a share of the offense's "struggles" as Gilbride, if not more. If anyone is mainly responsbile for the offense's performance, it's Coughlin.

[boohyah]

He'd be the literal answer because of his brute strength and burgeoning career as a super villain (though my inside source relayed that Jake prefers tying his victims to railroad tracks), but I was speaking metaphorically...

 

 

And I was joking.

[Virginia Giant]

Why don't they let Eli do more play calling at the line? Seems reasonable that he woudl call plays he is more comfortable with. e knows the offense as well as the coaches and can make the reads while the defense gets into position. And he's always seemed to play better in a faster tempo offense.

[Martin]

I really believe the success and failures of and

offense are a little more than the direct focus

of one person.

 

And I thought Gilbride did a good job

managing the offensive flow of the game

through out the season. There were some

games I felt the Giants should have run

the ball more to control the game on the ground

but that is just a fans opinion who is watching

with a beer in his hand on sundays.

 

Limited injuries, player execution and

a solid defense is the friend of any

offensive coordinator.

 

Again, its a multitude of factors that determines success or failure

and you can't quickly prosecute one man.

 

[xxi-xxv]

I thought Gilbride did a very good job for most of the season running this offense. He had plenty of weeks where in the run game he had to trust different runners due to injury and ELi was very inconistent. What always made me fear Gilbride was his run and shoot background(years with Pardee in Houston)and I think from time to time this rears its ugly head, but if you read and know anything about Coughlin and what he wants in an offense its a power run game complimented by a deep passing game and in that end I think Gilbride is a good coordinator to execute that gameplan.

 

No one is getting fired from this staff, they all have a 1 year get out of the firing line free pass.

[Money]

Why don't they let Eli do more play calling at the line? Seems reasonable that he woudl call plays he is more comfortable with. e knows the offense as well as the coaches and can make the reads while the defense gets into position. And he's always seemed to play better in a faster tempo offense.

 

He has the authority to call checks and audibles based on what the defense shows...

[Virginia Giant]

He has the authority to call checks and audibles based on what the defense shows...

Obviously most QB's have audible authority, but instead of saying this is what we want you to do unless you see something else available. Give him a package of plays and let him call the game for a few drives, see what happens. I know they've done it in the past, but with out any regularity. It's usually a gimmick to get him ot of a slump.

 

I think Eli is smart enough and experienced enough to know what he likes, does well and what will just lat out work for him. I'd just like to see what he does for say, 1 half, not necessarily no huddle, but that should definately be a part of it.

[boohyah]

Obviously most QB's have audible authority, but instead of saying this is what we want you to do unless you see something else available. Give him a package of plays and let him call the game for a few drives, see what happens. I know they've done it in the past, but with out any regularity. It's usually a gimmick to get him ot of a slump.

 

I think Eli is smart enough and experienced enough to know what he likes, does well and what will just lat out work for him. I'd just like to see what he does for say, 1 half, not necessarily no huddle, but that should definately be a part of it.

 

I don't doubt he's smart enough, but I don't think he's earned the amount of responsibility that Peyton does because he's been too inconsistant.