A Shockey Trade Deal Still Cooking?

[JMFP]

Because of SHock's early career production, other teams try and account for him. Like him or not, sad that you thought he'd be more and he's not, he's still one of the better one's in the league and he draws attention.

 

We also didn't account for losing him this offseason. Getting rid of him to make everyone feel better that we showed out most beligerant child how to behave, well that's a poor excuse for deep thinking.

 

Keep him, field other offers and don't accept anything that isn't outstanding.

 

One thing's for sure though: Shockey doesn't retire a G-man. Too bad, I really liked his nastiness early on; should've left him the way he was...

 

I agree. He's a damn good tight end, even if he is a meathead. And really, his production has been pretty consistent:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ShocJe00.htm

 

The two questions I see are: 1- can the Giants obtain enough talent/draft stock in a trade to offset losing him? and 2- if he stays in 2008 (and all signs point that way), what sort of player is he going to be in 2008, on both a physical and emotional level? Will the broken leg and heart both mend?

 

I have to say my thinking is greatly influenced by the Giants playoff run. If we got bounced by Tampa, then this discussion probably doesn't even start. But we won it all, which is a pretty damn convincing argument that we'd be fine if we traded him.

[boohyah]

Antonio Pierce did a radio interview yesterday on the Fan where he said wants Shockey back, that he's a great teammate and always in great shape. When asked if he felt they played better without him, he dismissed it and said that it was a combination of a team getting hot and Eli picking up his game at the end of the season. If you have Itunes, look under Joe Benigno on the Fan. But the idea was that Pierce was indicating similar to what I said earlier, that it had more to do with Eli playing better overall, and he even said that it showed in the fact how Eli scrambled on the throw as opposed to what normally would happen and take the sack.

 

Pierce also said he thought Strahan was gonna retire.

[Money]

Are you fucking serious? Did you WATCH the games or are you just over-analysing the stat sheet? Tell me again, with a straight face, that the game calling didn't improve.

 

Watch a game from Week 6 or something. It's the same offense, with the same routes, and the same tendencies. Boss's big catch in the Super Bowl was the same play we threw to Shockey Week 3 in Washington (both plays occurred in the 4th quarter as well). We made some adjustments late in the season with the audibles and built-in checks, but otherwise it was the same exact offense. The only reason why we would perceive that the play-calling was better was because the execution and therefore performance was better.

[Money]

Antonio Pierce did a radio interview yesterday on the Fan where he said wants Shockey back, that he's a great teammate and always in great shape. When asked if he felt they played better without him, he dismissed it and said that it was a combination of a team getting hot and Eli picking up his game at the end of the season. If you have Itunes, look under Joe Benigno on the Fan. But the idea was that Pierce was indicating similar to what I said earlier, that it had more to do with Eli playing better overall, and he even said that it showed in the fact how Eli scrambled on the throw as opposed to what normally would happen and take the sack.

 

Pierce also said he thought Strahan was gonna retire.

 

If Pierce says Strahan is coming back, nobody would pay attention. Keep that in mind.

[boohyah]

If Pierce says Strahan is coming back, nobody would pay attention. Keep that in mind.

 

What's your point? . He was asked his opinion and he gave it.

 

Why don't you listen to the interview first?

 

 

[Nas]

Antonio Pierce did a radio interview yesterday on the Fan where he said wants Shockey back, that he's a great teammate and always in great shape. When asked if he felt they played better without him, he dismissed it and said that it was a combination of a team getting hot and Eli picking up his game at the end of the season. If you have Itunes, look under Joe Benigno on the Fan. But the idea was that Pierce was indicating similar to what I said earlier, that it had more to do with Eli playing better overall, and he even said that it showed in the fact how Eli scrambled on the throw as opposed to what normally would happen and take the sack.

 

Pierce also said he thought Strahan was gonna retire.

 

I see a lot of great arguments on this tread (Money should start getting paid for his writings.. he's brilliant). However, if anyone thinks this team is better or will be at the same level without Shockey, then I'd like some of whatever they're smoking... ok I'll take that back.. I don't want whatever it's they're smoking.

 

Shockey is a solid player who draws attention from opposing Ds. He plays hard and he let's his emotions get the best of him sometimes. For those of you how are not 17 years old anymore, look back at how different your tempermen is now as compared to your teens and 20s... I know mine is very different. I still play with fire (pick up games mind you) but I don't let my emtions get the best of me anymore. Shock is no different. He will be back (or at least should) in Giants uniform and will have a brilliant seaons. Then we look back at t his thread and wonder why on earth did we even debate his trade.. it's a non-issue.

[NeMesiS]

I do realize that and that is not the point, Nem asked me if I blamed him(actually he insinuated it) and I told him I did not blame him nor was I bothered by the drop as the sole reason we lost. What stuck in my craw was his behavior that day, very unclassy and un Giant like as one can act. Yes it was years ago. No doubt his attitude has gotten much better, instead of attacking fans now he keeps his antics aimed squarely at his teammates and coaches, and that stuff happens now with him not YEARS AGO.

I didn't insinuated anything... You're the one who brought it up, not me. I just said it's a shame that people (not you) actually blame Shockey for the lost. Which is why I bet people hate Shockey. Which is fine. Its human nature to focus on people mistake rather their contributions. I do it too, I'm not perfect by no means.

 

I just want people to remember how or offense use to be before Shockey was drafted. It was plain, lifeless, no attitude what-so-ever. Yeah, he thru ice at a kid direction and apologized for it. Personally I would have grabed a whole bucked of orange Gatorade and dumped on top of the kids parents for not teaching him some fucking manners. (Atleast it a Giant tradition ). But that's just me... But his attitude toward kids have changed.

 

So he call out his coaches after an embarrassing lost to the Seahawks. But c'mon, you have to admit it. Shockey was right. We were outplayed and out coached.

 

 

[Treehugger]

Watch a game from Week 6 or something. It's the same offense, with the same routes, and the same tendencies. Boss's big catch in the Super Bowl was the same play we threw to Shockey Week 3 in Washington (both plays occurred in the 4th quarter as well). We made some adjustments late in the season with the audibles and built-in checks, but otherwise it was the same exact offense. The only reason why we would perceive that the play-calling was better was because the execution and therefore performance was better.

I didn't say he wrote a new playbook. Just because the same plays occurred doesn't mean the way he called it was the same. The timing and situational responses were much, much better. No more Shotgun Draws on 3rd n' 8 and ugly, ugly Screen attempts. I'm not the only one who was left scratching his head after some of the games earlier in the season, far from it. Gilbride improved the playcalling dramatically towards the end of the season (though it wasn't enough to warrant keeping his job IMHO).

[gateb]

I didn't say he wrote a new playbook. Just because the same plays occurred doesn't mean the way he called it was the same. The timing and situational responses were much, much better. No more Shotgun Draws on 3rd n' 8 and ugly, ugly Screen attempts. I'm not the only one who was left scratching his head after some of the games earlier in the season, far from it. Gilbride improved the playcalling dramatically towards the end of the season (though it wasn't enough to warrant keeping his job IMHO).

There's no way in hell the Giants would fire an OC after contributing big time to a Super Bowl run.

[Money]

What's your point? . He was asked his opinion and he gave it.

 

Why don't you listen to the interview first?

 

I listened to the interview. Days ago.

 

My point is that Pierce wants to get into media/broadcasting. He's presently interning for Howard Stern. By saying he "thinks" Strahan retires, he gets more publicity than if he says he thinks he's coming back. Just something to keep in mind...

[Money]

I didn't say he wrote a new playbook. Just because the same plays occurred doesn't mean the way he called it was the same. The timing and situational responses were much, much better. No more Shotgun Draws on 3rd n' 8 and ugly, ugly Screen attempts. I'm not the only one who was left scratching his head after some of the games earlier in the season, far from it. Gilbride improved the playcalling dramatically towards the end of the season (though it wasn't enough to warrant keeping his job IMHO).

 

The quality of the play-calling was same, IMO. The execution improved drastically. I wasn't one of the people ragging on the play-calling earlier in the season, because, frankly, I think that's a fool's game. Saying that the play-calling improved is such a sweeping generalization that it's hard to incorporate it into an argument, especially when audibles, check ins, and poor execution completely cloud our already limited judgment of "play-calling."

 

You think KG should be fired? After winning the Super Bowl? Geez, tough critic!!

 

BTW, we scored a TD on a screen pass to Jacobs vs. Tampa.

[gateb]

The quality of the play-calling was same, IMO. The execution improved drastically. I wasn't one of the people ragging on the play-calling earlier in the season, because, frankly, I think that's a fool's game.

 

You think KG should be fired? After winning the Super Bowl? Geez, tough critic!!

 

BTW, we scored a TD on a screen pass to Jacobs vs. Tampa.

I'm not a fan of BJ being the one used on the screen passes. He dropped a few ones that could've gone far this year and doesn't go upfield as fast as Bradshaw. I know it's tempting to run plays devised to get him in the open field but it's hard.

 

Those plays should go to AB this year and I think the success rate will go up.

[Money]

I'm not a fan of BJ being the one used on the screen passes. He dropped a few ones that could've gone far this year and doesn't go upfield as fast as Bradshaw. I know it's tempting to run plays devised to get him in the open field but it's hard.

 

Those plays should go to AB this year and I think the success rate will go up.

 

Well, Ahmad's not much of a receiver either. That's why I liked keeping Ward...

[gateb]

Well, Ahmad's not much of a receiver either. That's why I liked keeping Ward...

He's at least a threat to immediately turn around and take off when he gets his hands on the ball... Jacobs isn't.

 

Ward is effective on the screens too.

[xxi-xxv]

I didn't insinuated anything... You're the one who brought it up, not me. I just said it's a shame that people (not you) actually blame Shockey for the lost. Which is why I bet people hate Shockey. Which is fine. Its human nature to focus on people mistake rather their contributions. I do it too, I'm not perfect by no means.

 

I just want people to remember how or offense use to be before Shockey was drafted. It was plain, lifeless, no attitude what-so-ever. Yeah, he thru ice at a kid direction and apologized for it. Personally I would have grabed a whole bucked of orange Gatorade and dumped on top of the kids parents for not teaching him some fucking manners. (Atleast it a Giant tradition ). But that's just me... But his attitude toward kids have changed.

 

So he call out his coaches after an embarrassing lost to the Seahawks. But c'mon, you have to admit it. Shockey was right. We were outplayed and out coached.

 

See Nem thats a problem, coaches get outcoached all the time, teams get outplayed all the time, Coughlin outcoached every one of his opponents this past post season. One has a SB ring and the other is mentioned with Lombardi and the greats. Did you hear their players calling out the coach afterwards? As many of you know, I have a huge problem with Billy wagner as a Met fan, I feel he does too much talking for a guy that has never won a damn thing and has spit the bit in the big spot. I am not comparing Shockey to him, but you cannot ignore the facts. Shocket says way too much for a guy who has never won shit(until this year because no matter what he was an integral part of this team)his career is way overhyped based on what he was becoming and the media machine of NY. He is still a very very good player and IMO an important member of the team, I just think at this point it would be in his best interest to keep his mouth shut and get with the program. This means knowing where he is supposed to be at all times, working with his QB to get better, being a good teammate and coachable player and not acting like a 3 year old when things do not go his way. He also has to realize now, Eli Manning is a SB MVP, you as a TE do not tell him what to do or place any pressure on him to do things you want, you defer and let him come to you. I really truly believe that if Shockey can get a bit humble in his approach to this matter he will be 10 times better personally and ultimately get his catches as he craves. I see Shockey as a real dope, stupid motherfer, the guy you get to do crazy shit to in high school, but a great guy nonetheless. I think ELI is smart enough to know how to soothe his ego and still be the leader, if Shockey can accept this he will be so much better. At this point trading him is no solution so Shockey needs to start getting with the program and realizing he has a good thing.

[Money]

I think its funny when people wax poetic about Shockey's glory days and in the process speak longingly of Jim Fassel's offense. "Back when we used Shockey right," cry the sympathetics. Of course, they refer to Shockey's rookie season of 2002. Back when Dubya occupied the oval office, Kevin Richardson and the Backstreet Boys enriched America with an endless stream of unforgettable pop hits, and gas cost less than $1.50.

 

Ah yes, 2002. The best of times. In that magical 2002 season -- the one where our beloved Giants played on flowering meadows, swam in rivers flowing of chocolate, danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles, and properly deployed our star rookie TE -- the Rutherford 53 managed to finish 20th in the leagie in scoring and were promptly bounced in the divisional round of the playoffs.

 

Those were the days.

 

Since then, some militaristic philistine of tenebrous association became head coach, subjecting the highly accomplished squadron to baseless rules and poor overall management. It's been a tortuous era, perhaps not unlike the hysteria in Atlantis as the city sank to its watery grave. Sure, our Crew of big blue wrecking gentlemen has scored more points than we ever scored under Fassel, and we kinda won the Super Bowl, but dammit if that Dick-taster hasn't been misusing our modern-day Adonis of a TE the entire time.

 

Curses!

[BlueInCanada]

This thread is just starting to get funny.

[RandolphScott]

I think its funny when people wax poetic about Shockey's glory days and in the process speak longingly of Jim Fassel's offense. "Back when we used Shockey right," cry the sympathetics. Of course, they refer to Shockey's rookie season of 2002. Back when Dubya occupied the oval office, Kevin Richardson and the Backstreet Boys enriched America with an endless stream of unforgettable pop hits, and gas cost less than $1.50.

 

Ah yes, 2002. The best of times. In that magical 2002 season -- the one where our beloved Giants played on flowering meadows, swam in rivers flowing of chocolate, danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles, and properly deployed our star rookie TE -- the Rutherford 53 managed to finish 20th in the leagie in scoring and were promptly bounced in the divisional round of the playoffs.

 

Those were the days.

 

Since then, some militaristic philistine of tenebrous association became head coach, subjecting the highly accomplished squadron to baseless rules and poor overall management. It's been a tortuous era, perhaps not unlike the hysteria in Atlantis as the city sank to its watery grave. Sure, our Crew of big blue wrecking gentlemen has scored more points than we ever scored under Fassel, and we kinda won the Super Bowl, but dammit if that Dick-taster hasn't been misusing our modern-day Adonis of a TE the entire time.

 

Curses!

 

 

2002, the Giants didn't even make the divisional round of the playoffs dude.

[Money]

2002, the Giants didn't even make the divisional round of the playoffs dude.

 

Obviously meant wild card round...

[BleedinBlue]

The problem with Shockey is NOT that he isn't a very talented TE because he is. It's just that he wants personal glory and wants to carry the team on his back. That's a big problem. Because teams with superstar players trying to hog the glory rarely win as a team.

 

Bill Walsh built the niners into a regular superbowl contender by reiterating to his team nearly everyday with the statement, "we don't have the fastest players, nor the strongest players, nor the best players, nr the best athletes, and we don't have any superstars on this team". He spent hours letting each member of the team realize that they were only one small piece to the puzzle and only one cog in a gear and no play can work well unless each cog in the machine did it's part. He gave credit to every player on the team when Roger Craig broke for a long run.....except Craig. By building the "team concept" over the tried and failed method of "amassing head case superstars", the Forty-niners were a great team for a long time.

 

Even now (if you read the USAToday power rankings), the Giants are given credit for being the 2nd most powerful team in the NFL with this note: "no superstars on this team, but good depth". This can be easily figured out by looking at the amount of Giants who went to the pro-bowl compared to other teams that didn't even make the playoffs or were eliminated early in the playoffs.

 

I cannot reiterate enough that it's all about "winning" and has nothing to do with individual stats. Individual stats are for stroking immature men's egos....and when the stats are too important to the player, then he is actually a hindrance to the winning model of "team play".

 

But don't get me wrong....a superstar is nice to have on a team....but only if that superstar plays his role in the team rather than thinking he can carry the team on his back. Shockey is worth a hell of a lot more as someone who can draw two or three players away from the intended play than he is as a reciever. He's worth more as a blocker when Eli needs the time for Plax to go deep.

 

It's all part of the game and when players understand that only "teams" win and not prima donnas, or superstar performances by a single player....then you've got a winning team.

 

Personally, I want Shockey back, but I hope he knows enough to STFU and play his part to make the TEAM able to win rather than looking for personal glory. If he starts criticizing the coaches plays and acts like a cry baby because the coaches won't allow him to try and carry the team on his back....then he should be traded for whatever we can get out of him.

[boohyah]

The problem with Shockey is NOT that he isn't a very talented TE because he is. It's just that he wants personal glory and wants to carry the team on his back. That's a big problem. Because teams with superstar players trying to hog the glory rarely win as a team.

 

Bill Walsh built the niners into a regular superbowl contender by reiterating to his team nearly everyday with the statement, "we don't have the fastest players, nor the strongest players, nor the best players, nr the best athletes, and we don't have any superstars on this team". He spent hours letting each member of the team realize that they were only one small piece to the puzzle and only one cog in a gear and no play can work well unless each cog in the machine did it's part. He gave credit to every player on the team when Roger Craig broke for a long run.....except Craig. By building the "team concept" over the tried and failed method of "amassing head case superstars", the Forty-niners were a great team for a long time.

 

Even now (if you read the USAToday power rankings), the Giants are given credit for being the 2nd most powerful team in the NFL with this note: "no superstars on this team, but good depth". This can be easily figured out by looking at the amount of Giants who went to the pro-bowl compared to other teams that didn't even make the playoffs or were eliminated early in the playoffs.

 

I cannot reiterate enough that it's all about "winning" and has nothing to do with individual stats. Individual stats are for stroking immature men's egos....and when the stats are too important to the player, then he is actually a hindrance to the winning model of "team play".

 

But don't get me wrong....a superstar is nice to have on a team....but only if that superstar plays his role in the team rather than thinking he can carry the team on his back. Shockey is worth a hell of a lot more as someone who can draw two or three players away from the intended play than he is as a reciever. He's worth more as a blocker when Eli needs the time for Plax to go deep.

 

It's all part of the game and when players understand that only "teams" win and not prima donnas, or superstar performances by a single player....then you've got a winning team.

 

Personally, I want Shockey back, but I hope he knows enough to STFU and play his part to make the TEAM able to win rather than looking for personal glory. If he starts criticizing the coaches plays and acts like a cry baby because the coaches won't allow him to try and carry the team on his back....then he should be traded for whatever we can get out of him.

 

 

Personal glory is such a big aspect of Sports these days Bleedin and it's not going away. And part of that are these bonus clauses they have where they get incentives for passes caught or pro bowl appearances etc. Plus if you are fortunate enough you could become a hall of famer and God only knows how much money you can generate by having that credential.,

[Treehugger]

BTW, we scored a TD on a screen pass to Jacobs vs. Tampa.

After how many failed attempts? We SUCK at screens.

 

My beef with the Shotgun Draw isn't that it's necessarily a bad play, it's that it's a bad play to hand a delayed ball to a Powerback with no momentum. It completely negated Brandon's main weapon; inertia.

[Martin]

After how many failed attempts? We SUCK at screens.

 

My beef with the Shotgun Draw isn't that it's necessarily a bad play, it's that it's a bad play to hand a delayed ball to a Powerback with no momentum. It completely negated Brandon's main weapon; inertia.

 

 

Lets try that play with Bradshaw!

[Treehugger]

Lets try that play with Bradshaw!

Exactly.

[NeMesiS]

See Nem thats a problem, coaches get outcoached all the time, teams get outplayed all the time, Coughlin outcoached every one of his opponents this past post season. One has a SB ring and the other is mentioned with Lombardi and the greats. Did you hear their players calling out the coach afterwards? As many of you know, I have a huge problem with Billy wagner as a Met fan, I feel he does too much talking for a guy that has never won a damn thing and has spit the bit in the big spot. I am not comparing Shockey to him, but you cannot ignore the facts. Shocket says way too much for a guy who has never won shit(until this year because no matter what he was an integral part of this team)his career is way overhyped based on what he was becoming and the media machine of NY. He is still a very very good player and IMO an important member of the team, I just think at this point it would be in his best interest to keep his mouth shut and get with the program. This means knowing where he is supposed to be at all times, working with his QB to get better, being a good teammate and coachable player and not acting like a 3 year old when things do not go his way. He also has to realize now, Eli Manning is a SB MVP, you as a TE do not tell him what to do or place any pressure on him to do things you want, you defer and let him come to you. I really truly believe that if Shockey can get a bit humble in his approach to this matter he will be 10 times better personally and ultimately get his catches as he craves. I see Shockey as a real dope, stupid motherfer, the guy you get to do crazy shit to in high school, but a great guy nonetheless. I think ELI is smart enough to know how to soothe his ego and still be the leader, if Shockey can accept this he will be so much better. At this point trading him is no solution so Shockey needs to start getting with the program and realizing he has a good thing.

 

 

I completely understand and you're right. As a father I wouldn't condel (sp) Shockey's actions to my kids. However, as a fan... I'm glad he did it. After the seahawks game the first thing that popped in my head was "Does this team care about winning?" Where's the fire! If I'm not mistaken that was the third straight game the Giants looked awful. Yes I know the Giants won against the Eagle the week before. But this team looked unprepared yet again...

 

As for getting with the program. Personally I think he has done that... When he was asked to be a better run blocker. He worked and improve his run blocking. last year he came worked out with the team... But now, when he ask to be used better in the passing game. He is selfish and not a team player. Why is that? how come Toomer and Tony Gonzales, A Gates, get a free pass and shockey can't? (I know, I know fish..They went through the media and not their Agents.) lets not forget also the Bavaro had about 4 good years before his knees started giving out.

 

I think we are misusing Shockey. where are the seem passes? Where are the crossing patterns? Where's the one on ones? I know, I know he's lost a step. He may not be as fast. but still faster than most TE in the league. If that fat, piece of shit, non-blocking, pass drop, Jason Witten can do it. I'm sure Shockey can also.