Whats in a Name?

[Gforce11]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6246654

 

New York Giants quarterback Eli Jones had a good day on Sunday, showing in his ninth career start why Giants coach Tom Coughlin has said he sees Jones as his quarterback of the future. Jones, the team's 2004 third-round draft pick, still needs some seasoning but is developing into a solid player.

 

If a quarterback named Eli Jones had graduated from Ole Miss three years ago, we'd probably be reading something like that right about now. But since his name is Eli Manning, and he had Pro Bowl quarterback Archie Manning for a father and future Hall of Famer Peyton Manning for an older brother, we have never had a chance to discuss Eli Manning rationally. Let's try to do that now, acknowledging that he never should have been the first pick in the draft, but also that he does have talent and could become a very good NFL quarterback some day.

 

Let's start with April 24, 2004, when Manning was so highly sought (and so financially secure) that he was in the virtually unprecedented position to demand that the San Diego Chargers, who owned the No. 1 overall pick, either pass on him or trade him. If a quarterback projected as a third-round pick had made such demands, teams would have laughed — and lowered him on their draft boards. The Chargers did take Manning first overall, but they traded him just an hour later to the Giants, who gave up a king's ransom of draft picks.

 

But why was Manning so well regarded that the Chargers knew they could receive a trade package worthy of the first overall pick? Nothing Manning did at Ole Miss justified him going ahead of Ben Roethlisberger (who displayed a vastly superior passing arm during his time at Miami of Ohio), or Philip Rivers (who had more experience than Manning after starting an NCAA-record 51 games at North Carolina State and was more accurate, completing an ACC-record 72 percent of his passes during his senior year).

 

Manning was the first overall pick because of his name. It defies credulity to suggest that a quarterback with Manning's credentials would have been the first overall pick, except that many scouts couldn't look past his pedigree and figured he was destined to follow in the footsteps of his father and brother.

 

Once the Giants got Manning into camp, they initially made the wise move of putting him behind an accomplished veteran, Kurt Warner, on the depth chart. But after a few games in which Warner failed to escape the opposing pass rush, coach Tom Coughlin made the Giants' second big mistake: He benched Warner. Manning shouldn't have started as a rookie. Few rookie quarterbacks are ready to start in the NFL, and the ones who can start in their first year are either much more polished passers (like Peyton) or surrounded by much better teams (like Roethlisberger). Quarterbacks who don't fall into those two categories would be much better off following the Tony Romo path, spending time on the bench learning before they actually play in a live game.

 

Once he got the starting job, it didn't take Manning long to show that he was not as good as Warner by any measure: Warner completed 62.8 percent of his passes in 2004; Manning completed 48.2 percent. Warner averaged 7.4 yards a pass; Manning averaged 5.3. Warner had six touchdowns and four interceptions; Manning had six touchdowns and nine interceptions. The Giants went 5-4 in the nine games Warner started; they went 1-6 in the seven games Manning started. Manning should have spent at least a full rookie season on the bench watching Warner, rather than starting ahead of him. Handing Manning the starting job sent him — and his teammates — the message that his status as a No. 1 overall pick was more important than Warner's status as the quarterback most likely to help the Giants win.

 

If Manning had been the Giants' third-round pick, he would have had time to learn the pro game from the sidelines, the practice field and the film room while Warner played. He also would have taken up a small portion of his team's salary cap and that money would have gone to building other parts of the team. Instead, the NFL's rookie salary structure guaranteed Manning $20 million before he had proven himself.

 

None of this is a criticism of Manning. It's not that he's a terrible player, it's just that he's an overpaid player who doesn't have the necessary skills to live up to the overly high expectations placed on him. He's not accurate enough, has only adequate arm strength, and isn't very athletic.

 

Some have suggested that New York is a bad place for Manning because of the intense media glare in the Big Apple, but a quarterback in any NFL city would face media scrutiny when his team traded a boatload of draft picks for him. The problem isn't the size of the market he plays in, the problem is that he hasn't been worth what the Giants gave up to get him.

 

Manning's career stats (a 54.2 percent completion rate, 49 touchdown passes, 41 interceptions and a passer rating of 73.4) are nothing special, and the truth is that he's not as good as his stats — with a supporting cast that includes running back Tiki Barber, wide receiver Plaxico Burress, tight end Jeremy Shockey, and, until he was injured a few weeks ago, left tackle Luke Petitgout, Manning has had much more support than other highly chosen quarterbacks like Joey Harrington, David Carr, Michael Vick and Alex Smith.

 

So where does Manning go from here? Much has been made about whether he has the intangibles and leadership qualities to be a top-flight quarterback, but I suspect that there is something more fundamental missing from his game: his conditioning isn't good enough. For a pocket passer who doesn't do much running, Manning often looks exhausted at the end of games, and this is the second straight season that he's started the year strong but faded down the stretch. No one questions whether Manning works hard enough in the film room, but perhaps he needs to work harder in the weight room.

 

Manning completed 24 of 36 passes for 270 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions in the Giants' biggest game of the year on Sunday. If his name were Eli Jones, I'd be writing this week about one of the league's bright young quarterbacks. Eli Manning might get that praise one day. If he does, it will be unlike that big rookie contract: He'll have earned it.

[ccase39]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6246654

 

New York Giants quarterback Eli Jones had a good day on Sunday, showing in his ninth career start why Giants coach Tom Coughlin has said he sees Jones as his quarterback of the future. Jones, the team's 2004 third-round draft pick, still needs some seasoning but is developing into a solid player.

 

If a quarterback named Eli Jones had graduated from Ole Miss three years ago, we'd probably be reading something like that right about now. But since his name is Eli Manning, and he had Pro Bowl quarterback Archie Manning for a father and future Hall of Famer Peyton Manning for an older brother, we have never had a chance to discuss Eli Manning rationally. Let's try to do that now, acknowledging that he never should have been the first pick in the draft, but also that he does have talent and could become a very good NFL quarterback some day.

 

Let's start with April 24, 2004, when Manning was so highly sought (and so financially secure) that he was in the virtually unprecedented position to demand that the San Diego Chargers, who owned the No. 1 overall pick, either pass on him or trade him. If a quarterback projected as a third-round pick had made such demands, teams would have laughed — and lowered him on their draft boards. The Chargers did take Manning first overall, but they traded him just an hour later to the Giants, who gave up a king's ransom of draft picks.

 

But why was Manning so well regarded that the Chargers knew they could receive a trade package worthy of the first overall pick? Nothing Manning did at Ole Miss justified him going ahead of Ben Roethlisberger (who displayed a vastly superior passing arm during his time at Miami of Ohio), or Philip Rivers (who had more experience than Manning after starting an NCAA-record 51 games at North Carolina State and was more accurate, completing an ACC-record 72 percent of his passes during his senior year).

 

Manning was the first overall pick because of his name. It defies credulity to suggest that a quarterback with Manning's credentials would have been the first overall pick, except that many scouts couldn't look past his pedigree and figured he was destined to follow in the footsteps of his father and brother.

 

Once the Giants got Manning into camp, they initially made the wise move of putting him behind an accomplished veteran, Kurt Warner, on the depth chart. But after a few games in which Warner failed to escape the opposing pass rush, coach Tom Coughlin made the Giants' second big mistake: He benched Warner. Manning shouldn't have started as a rookie. Few rookie quarterbacks are ready to start in the NFL, and the ones who can start in their first year are either much more polished passers (like Peyton) or surrounded by much better teams (like Roethlisberger). Quarterbacks who don't fall into those two categories would be much better off following the Tony Romo path, spending time on the bench learning before they actually play in a live game.

 

Once he got the starting job, it didn't take Manning long to show that he was not as good as Warner by any measure: Warner completed 62.8 percent of his passes in 2004; Manning completed 48.2 percent. Warner averaged 7.4 yards a pass; Manning averaged 5.3. Warner had six touchdowns and four interceptions; Manning had six touchdowns and nine interceptions. The Giants went 5-4 in the nine games Warner started; they went 1-6 in the seven games Manning started. Manning should have spent at least a full rookie season on the bench watching Warner, rather than starting ahead of him. Handing Manning the starting job sent him — and his teammates — the message that his status as a No. 1 overall pick was more important than Warner's status as the quarterback most likely to help the Giants win.

 

If Manning had been the Giants' third-round pick, he would have had time to learn the pro game from the sidelines, the practice field and the film room while Warner played. He also would have taken up a small portion of his team's salary cap and that money would have gone to building other parts of the team. Instead, the NFL's rookie salary structure guaranteed Manning $20 million before he had proven himself.

 

None of this is a criticism of Manning. It's not that he's a terrible player, it's just that he's an overpaid player who doesn't have the necessary skills to live up to the overly high expectations placed on him. He's not accurate enough, has only adequate arm strength, and isn't very athletic.

 

Some have suggested that New York is a bad place for Manning because of the intense media glare in the Big Apple, but a quarterback in any NFL city would face media scrutiny when his team traded a boatload of draft picks for him. The problem isn't the size of the market he plays in, the problem is that he hasn't been worth what the Giants gave up to get him.

 

Manning's career stats (a 54.2 percent completion rate, 49 touchdown passes, 41 interceptions and a passer rating of 73.4) are nothing special, and the truth is that he's not as good as his stats — with a supporting cast that includes running back Tiki Barber, wide receiver Plaxico Burress, tight end Jeremy Shockey, and, until he was injured a few weeks ago, left tackle Luke Petitgout, Manning has had much more support than other highly chosen quarterbacks like Joey Harrington, David Carr, Michael Vick and Alex Smith.

 

So where does Manning go from here? Much has been made about whether he has the intangibles and leadership qualities to be a top-flight quarterback, but I suspect that there is something more fundamental missing from his game: his conditioning isn't good enough. For a pocket passer who doesn't do much running, Manning often looks exhausted at the end of games, and this is the second straight season that he's started the year strong but faded down the stretch. No one questions whether Manning works hard enough in the film room, but perhaps he needs to work harder in the weight room.

 

Manning completed 24 of 36 passes for 270 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions in the Giants' biggest game of the year on Sunday. If his name were Eli Jones, I'd be writing this week about one of the league's bright young quarterbacks. Eli Manning might get that praise one day. If he does, it will be unlike that big rookie contract: He'll have earned it.

nice post

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

Well thought out and written...not the usual why I hate O.C.P. screed. But on the other hand I am praying that Eli becomes a top flight QB.

[gateb]

TC was 100% right in changing QBs. He knew that if we even got to the playoffs, we would get destroyed and our young QB who we gave up the farm for wouldn't have gotten any experience.

[Hampton27 missed]

Kurt Warner was a sack machine. Giants weren't going anywhere that year. Eli should have started from game 1.

[crackback]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6246654

 

New York Giants quarterback Eli Jones had a good day on Sunday, showing in his ninth career start why Giants coach Tom Coughlin has said he sees Jones as his quarterback of the future. Jones, the team's 2004 third-round draft pick, still needs some seasoning but is developing into a solid player.

 

If a quarterback named Eli Jones had graduated from Ole Miss three years ago, we'd probably be reading something like that right about now. But since his name is Eli Manning, and he had Pro Bowl quarterback Archie Manning for a father and future Hall of Famer Peyton Manning for an older brother, we have never had a chance to discuss Eli Manning rationally. Let's try to do that now, acknowledging that he never should have been the first pick in the draft, but also that he does have talent and could become a very good NFL quarterback some day.

 

Let's start with April 24, 2004, when Manning was so highly sought (and so financially secure) that he was in the virtually unprecedented position to demand that the San Diego Chargers, who owned the No. 1 overall pick, either pass on him or trade him. If a quarterback projected as a third-round pick had made such demands, teams would have laughed — and lowered him on their draft boards. The Chargers did take Manning first overall, but they traded him just an hour later to the Giants, who gave up a king's ransom of draft picks.

 

But why was Manning so well regarded that the Chargers knew they could receive a trade package worthy of the first overall pick? Nothing Manning did at Ole Miss justified him going ahead of Ben Roethlisberger (who displayed a vastly superior passing arm during his time at Miami of Ohio), or Philip Rivers (who had more experience than Manning after starting an NCAA-record 51 games at North Carolina State and was more accurate, completing an ACC-record 72 percent of his passes during his senior year).

 

Manning was the first overall pick because of his name. It defies credulity to suggest that a quarterback with Manning's credentials would have been the first overall pick, except that many scouts couldn't look past his pedigree and figured he was destined to follow in the footsteps of his father and brother.

 

Once the Giants got Manning into camp, they initially made the wise move of putting him behind an accomplished veteran, Kurt Warner, on the depth chart. But after a few games in which Warner failed to escape the opposing pass rush, coach Tom Coughlin made the Giants' second big mistake: He benched Warner. Manning shouldn't have started as a rookie. Few rookie quarterbacks are ready to start in the NFL, and the ones who can start in their first year are either much more polished passers (like Peyton) or surrounded by much better teams (like Roethlisberger). Quarterbacks who don't fall into those two categories would be much better off following the Tony Romo path, spending time on the bench learning before they actually play in a live game.

 

Once he got the starting job, it didn't take Manning long to show that he was not as good as Warner by any measure: Warner completed 62.8 percent of his passes in 2004; Manning completed 48.2 percent. Warner averaged 7.4 yards a pass; Manning averaged 5.3. Warner had six touchdowns and four interceptions; Manning had six touchdowns and nine interceptions. The Giants went 5-4 in the nine games Warner started; they went 1-6 in the seven games Manning started. Manning should have spent at least a full rookie season on the bench watching Warner, rather than starting ahead of him. Handing Manning the starting job sent him — and his teammates — the message that his status as a No. 1 overall pick was more important than Warner's status as the quarterback most likely to help the Giants win.

 

If Manning had been the Giants' third-round pick, he would have had time to learn the pro game from the sidelines, the practice field and the film room while Warner played. He also would have taken up a small portion of his team's salary cap and that money would have gone to building other parts of the team. Instead, the NFL's rookie salary structure guaranteed Manning $20 million before he had proven himself.

 

None of this is a criticism of Manning. It's not that he's a terrible player, it's just that he's an overpaid player who doesn't have the necessary skills to live up to the overly high expectations placed on him. He's not accurate enough, has only adequate arm strength, and isn't very athletic.

 

Some have suggested that New York is a bad place for Manning because of the intense media glare in the Big Apple, but a quarterback in any NFL city would face media scrutiny when his team traded a boatload of draft picks for him. The problem isn't the size of the market he plays in, the problem is that he hasn't been worth what the Giants gave up to get him.

 

Manning's career stats (a 54.2 percent completion rate, 49 touchdown passes, 41 interceptions and a passer rating of 73.4) are nothing special, and the truth is that he's not as good as his stats — with a supporting cast that includes running back Tiki Barber, wide receiver Plaxico Burress, tight end Jeremy Shockey, and, until he was injured a few weeks ago, left tackle Luke Petitgout, Manning has had much more support than other highly chosen quarterbacks like Joey Harrington, David Carr, Michael Vick and Alex Smith.

 

So where does Manning go from here? Much has been made about whether he has the intangibles and leadership qualities to be a top-flight quarterback, but I suspect that there is something more fundamental missing from his game: his conditioning isn't good enough. For a pocket passer who doesn't do much running, Manning often looks exhausted at the end of games, and this is the second straight season that he's started the year strong but faded down the stretch. No one questions whether Manning works hard enough in the film room, but perhaps he needs to work harder in the weight room.

 

Manning completed 24 of 36 passes for 270 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions in the Giants' biggest game of the year on Sunday. If his name were Eli Jones, I'd be writing this week about one of the league's bright young quarterbacks. Eli Manning might get that praise one day. If he does, it will be unlike that big rookie contract: He'll have earned it.

Michael david smith, sure looks like somebody with expertise on this subject a sports writer wanabe.

[gateb]

Another moronic point on his part: He went on how the Giants would've kept winning with Warner there. He fails to point out how Warner played like absolute shit in his last two games against two of the worst teams in football. The Craig Krenzen led Bears who went 5-11 and the always shitty Arizona Cardinals.

 

I hope this guy never amounts to anything any bigger than foxsports.com. He's a POS, and I'm not saying that because I'm an Eli lover. His points are blatantly obvious and he tries to act strong and powerful in his writings when he really lacks logic and makes some worthless comments.

 

Anyone got anything else written by this guy?

[crackback]

Another moronic point on his part: He went on how the Giants would've kept winning with Warner there. He fails to point out how Warner played like absolute shit in his last two games against two of the worst teams in football. The Craig Krenzen led Bears who went 5-11 and the always shitty Arizona Cardinals.

 

I hope this guy never amounts to anything any bigger than foxsports.com. He's a POS, and I'm not saying that because I'm an Eli lover. His points are blatantly obvious and he tries to act strong and powerful in his writings when he really lacks logic and makes some worthless comments.

 

Anyone got anything else written by this guy?

You are right, this cocksucker is nothing but a piece of shit, he's the type that stands around on the playground with a big mouth, and is allways chosen last. What in the hell does every damn beat writer have against Eli and the giants?

[randoff]

Let's face the facts: The jury is still out on Eli. Ben Rothlisberger is better, Romo is better, Rex Grossman is worse!, and Phillip Rivers is better.

 

I'd like to make this accesment in the year 2010. Then we can fairly judge Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, Rex Grossman(who prolly wont be in the league come 2010) and Romo.

[gateb]

Let's face the facts: The jury is still out on Eli. Ben Rothlisberger is better, Romo is better, Rex Grossman is worse!, and Phillip Rivers is better.

 

I'd like to make this accesment in the year 2010. Then we can fairly judge Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, Rex Grossman(who prolly wont be in the league come 2010) and Romo.

Can't disagree with that one.

[Sephiroth]

On the scale of 1st round QB's drafted in the last five years, he's not as bad as the Grossmans and Carrs, but he's not as good as the Roethlisbergers and Rivers' of the league. Although they're much different players, he's probably along the lines of a Michael Vick-- they both show flashes of greatness, but also show flashes of incredibly bad decision-making.

 

I remember reading a handful of articles like this one before the draft... people saying Manning would be a third-rounder if his last name was different. After the last two seasons, I've gotta say I'd agree... average arm strength, average accuracy, but smart. Sounds like a third rounder.

[crackback]

On the scale of 1st round QB's drafted in the last five years, he's not as bad as the Grossmans and Carrs, but he's not as good as the Roethlisbergers and Rivers' of the league. Although they're much different players, he's probably along the lines of a Michael Vick-- they both show flashes of greatness, but also show flashes of incredibly bad decision-making.

 

I remember reading a handful of articles like this one before the draft... people saying Manning would be a third-rounder if his last name was different. After the last two seasons, I've gotta say I'd agree... average arm strength, average accuracy, but smart. Sounds like a third rounder.

If you still have that handful of articles, give me a link, yeah that's what I thought.

[Allstarjim]

If you still have that handful of articles, give me a link, yeah that's what I thought.

 

The only thing the writer was wrong about was the timing of Kurt Warner getting benched for Eli. Eli needed the on-field experience. His comparisons of Rivers and Romo on this point don't mesh. The Chargers had a great QB, and Cowboys hoped they had one. Warner wasn't getting it done, but he wasn't helped by the O-line much that year either.

 

There WAS a bunch of people, myself included, that questioned if he was only taken as high as he was because of his last name. It wasn't a knock on Eli, but the fact was is that there was two other quarterbacks that were very highly regarded, that many scouts had even or slightly better than Manning. Particularly Rivers. He stepped it up at NC State in every big game, he was awesome. And at 72% completion, I remember posting these same points on the old Giants board before AND just after that draft. The guy I REALLY wanted the Giants to draft at the time was Sean Taylor, and for us to keep Kerry Collins. We had just been to the Superbowl a couple of years before, I figured Kerry just needed a little more help. The main point I made back then, and it stands today, is that Manning has to be CLEARLY and MEASURABLY better than both Rivers and Roethlisberger for the trade to be justifiable. They gave up A LOT to get him. The Chargers used OUR draft picks to draft Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. If anyone thinks we would not be a better team, JUST RIGHT NOW, with Rivers at QB, Merriman at OLB, and Kaeding as our kicker, then they are a blind homer. I love the Giants, but that love of team should not prevent you from honest evaluation, and being able to criticize the moves the front office makes in a likewise honest fashion. I said it then, and will say it now, although I support our QB and hope that he surpasses his big brother, trading Rivers and those picks was one of the bigger mistakes the Giants have made. Today, with the current players and Merriman added, we would have a defense as good as the Bears, more than likely. And have a dynamite QB, that has already eclipsed single game passing marks of Manning in his first year. Yes, that's an overrated stat, but it is an indicator of Rivers' tremendous skill. I do see a lot of good things from Manning, but I also see wobbly and inaccurate passes a lot of the time, and an inability to progress through reads quickly. The latter is not just me talking, that has been Coughlin's criticism as well. No, I am not a Manning hater, I support him and honestly want him to prove me wrong in my belief that the team made a mistake in trading for him...

 

But so far he hasn't, and that's just the truth.

[NeMesiS]

The only thing the writer was wrong about was the timing of Kurt Warner getting benched for Eli. Eli needed the on-field experience. His comparisons of Rivers and Romo on this point don't mesh. The Chargers had a great QB, and Cowboys hoped they had one. Warner wasn't getting it done, but he wasn't helped by the O-line much that year either.

 

There WAS a bunch of people, myself included, that questioned if he was only taken as high as he was because of his last name. It wasn't a knock on Eli, but the fact was is that there was two other quarterbacks that were very highly regarded, that many scouts had even or slightly better than Manning. Particularly Rivers. He stepped it up at NC State in every big game, he was awesome. And at 72% completion, I remember posting these same points on the old Giants board before AND just after that draft. The guy I REALLY wanted the Giants to draft at the time was Sean Taylor, and for us to keep Kerry Collins. We had just been to the Superbowl a couple of years before, I figured Kerry just needed a little more help. The main point I made back then, and it stands today, is that Manning has to be CLEARLY and MEASURABLY better than both Rivers and Roethlisberger for the trade to be justifiable. They gave up A LOT to get him. The Chargers used OUR draft picks to draft Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. If anyone thinks we would not be a better team, JUST RIGHT NOW, with Rivers at QB, Merriman at OLB, and Kaeding as our kicker, then they are a blind homer. I love the Giants, but that love of team should not prevent you from honest evaluation, and being able to criticize the moves the front office makes in a likewise honest fashion. I said it then, and will say it now, although I support our QB and hope that he surpasses his big brother, trading Rivers and those picks was one of the bigger mistakes the Giants have made. Today, with the current players and Merriman added, we would have a defense as good as the Bears, more than likely. And have a dynamite QB, that has already eclipsed single game passing marks of Manning in his first year. Yes, that's an overrated stat, but it is an indicator of Rivers' tremendous skill. I do see a lot of good things from Manning, but I also see wobbly and inaccurate passes a lot of the time, and an inability to progress through reads quickly. The latter is not just me talking, that has been Coughlin's criticism as well. No, I am not a Manning hater, I support him and honestly want him to prove me wrong in my belief that the team made a mistake in trading for him...

 

But so far he hasn't, and that's just the truth.

 

 

Before I begin, I would like to say to you were right about Jeff Smoker. The fucker couldn't let go of the drugs.

 

Me personally wanted Sean taylor in the first round and Jeff Smoker in the 3rd or 4th round. I guess I was wrong.

[Hampton27 missed]

Big Ben threw 20 passes a game last year. His team had a #1 or 2 defense and they ran the ball. Put him on the Giants and I don't know if he would be more successful. Rivers has a RB that scores 3-4 TDs a game with a real good defense. Honestly, you can't judge them yet. I wish we could insert those 2 QBs on the Giants for a laugh. I think it would turn out to be a laugh too. In a few more years, we'll be able to make some evaluations.

[crackback]

The only thing the writer was wrong about was the timing of Kurt Warner getting benched for Eli. Eli needed the on-field experience. His comparisons of Rivers and Romo on this point don't mesh. The Chargers had a great QB, and Cowboys hoped they had one. Warner wasn't getting it done, but he wasn't helped by the O-line much that year either.

 

There WAS a bunch of people, myself included, that questioned if he was only taken as high as he was because of his last name. It wasn't a knock on Eli, but the fact was is that there was two other quarterbacks that were very highly regarded, that many scouts had even or slightly better than Manning. Particularly Rivers. He stepped it up at NC State in every big game, he was awesome. And at 72% completion, I remember posting these same points on the old Giants board before AND just after that draft. The guy I REALLY wanted the Giants to draft at the time was Sean Taylor, and for us to keep Kerry Collins. We had just been to the Superbowl a couple of years before, I figured Kerry just needed a little more help. The main point I made back then, and it stands today, is that Manning has to be CLEARLY and MEASURABLY better than both Rivers and Roethlisberger for the trade to be justifiable. They gave up A LOT to get him. The Chargers used OUR draft picks to draft Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. If anyone thinks we would not be a better team, JUST RIGHT NOW, with Rivers at QB, Merriman at OLB, and Kaeding as our kicker, then they are a blind homer. I love the Giants, but that love of team should not prevent you from honest evaluation, and being able to criticize the moves the front office makes in a likewise honest fashion. I said it then, and will say it now, although I support our QB and hope that he surpasses his big brother, trading Rivers and those picks was one of the bigger mistakes the Giants have made. Today, with the current players and Merriman added, we would have a defense as good as the Bears, more than likely. And have a dynamite QB, that has already eclipsed single game passing marks of Manning in his first year. Yes, that's an overrated stat, but it is an indicator of Rivers' tremendous skill. I do see a lot of good things from Manning, but I also see wobbly and inaccurate passes a lot of the time, and an inability to progress through reads quickly. The latter is not just me talking, that has been Coughlin's criticism as well. No, I am not a Manning hater, I support him and honestly want him to prove me wrong in my belief that the team made a mistake in trading for him...

 

But so far he hasn't, and that's just the truth.

First of all let's look at your hero Rivers who played in the acc where they have two or three good teams, unlike sec where manning played, and might I say beat more than he lost to Alabama, LSU,Auburn,Arkansas, georgia,Florida, and more. Teams key there defense on LT not rivers, he has a sidearm motion the pros do not like, and in time will catch up to him. I saw Rivers play in college, and I liked him, but sir he is not half the talent Manning is are will be.

[Allstarjim]

First of all let's look at your hero Rivers who played in the acc where they have two or three good teams, unlike sec where manning played, and might I say beat more than he lost to Alabama, LSU,Auburn,Arkansas, georgia,Florida, and more. Teams key there defense on LT not rivers, he has a sidearm motion the pros do not like, and in time will catch up to him. I saw Rivers play in college, and I liked him, but sir he is not half the talent Manning is are will be.

 

You have no basis for this claim. Your evaluation of the ACC is off. It's a pretty good football conference. It's better than the PAC-10, not as good as the SEC, and almost as good as the Big 10. That's just the truth. I live ACC football as an FSU fan, and I watch plenty of SEC games, too, living in FL. Your argument that teams key on LT is off, too, because we also have Tiki. In addition to Tiki, Eli has had the benefit of much better receivers than Rivers, like Plax, Shockey, and Toomer. Rivers has had to win games with his arm and has done so. The side arm thing is over-rated. It's not really side-arm anyways. And he's already shown more than Manning has in one year. Additionally, Eli in college played teams like Memphis (who he lost too, by the way), Vandy, Louisiana-Monroe, Texas Tech, Arkansas State, South Carolina (also not as good then), and that was just his senior year. So he didn't exactly run the gauntlet every week, dude. That's 6 games against average or poor teams. And he threw 10 INT's. Rivers? 7, despite 42 more pass attempts. And he threw for nearly 900 more yards than Eli, completing 72% of his passes. That denotes accuracy. No matter who you are playing, you still have to be damn accurate to compete 72%. Let me ask you... what has been the knock on Eli? Could it be accuracy? You want to talk about talent? With that side arm delivery of Rivers, he's more accurate than Eli, more mobile, more of a competitor, has stepped up his game more and more times than Eli, won all his bowl games, and has put up better numbers in year 1 than Eli has in 3 years. What is your basis for saying that he is not HALF the talent of Manning? Rivers is not my hero, but I recognize a great QB when I see one, and he is great. I don't see it in Manning. I don't I see an slightly better than average QB in Eli. That is a damn shame but that's what I see so far. And you can't tell me with a straight face, that if San Diego offered Rivers, Merriman, and Kaeding to the Giants for Manning right now, that you wouldn't be jumping out of your chair begging them to do it. I would be, because we would have a significantly better team. I'll support Eli, but I'm waiting for him to prove me otherwise that the trade wasn't a mistake. It's likely not going to happen. Stop being a homer.

[Allstarjim]

eh, double post. <edited>

[Gforce11]

The only thing the writer was wrong about was the timing of Kurt Warner getting benched for Eli. Eli needed the on-field experience. His comparisons of Rivers and Romo on this point don't mesh. The Chargers had a great QB, and Cowboys hoped they had one. Warner wasn't getting it done, but he wasn't helped by the O-line much that year either.

 

There WAS a bunch of people, myself included, that questioned if he was only taken as high as he was because of his last name. It wasn't a knock on Eli, but the fact was is that there was two other quarterbacks that were very highly regarded, that many scouts had even or slightly better than Manning. Particularly Rivers. He stepped it up at NC State in every big game, he was awesome. And at 72% completion, I remember posting these same points on the old Giants board before AND just after that draft. The guy I REALLY wanted the Giants to draft at the time was Sean Taylor, and for us to keep Kerry Collins. We had just been to the Superbowl a couple of years before, I figured Kerry just needed a little more help. The main point I made back then, and it stands today, is that Manning has to be CLEARLY and MEASURABLY better than both Rivers and Roethlisberger for the trade to be justifiable. They gave up A LOT to get him. The Chargers used OUR draft picks to draft Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. If anyone thinks we would not be a better team, JUST RIGHT NOW, with Rivers at QB, Merriman at OLB, and Kaeding as our kicker, then they are a blind homer. I love the Giants, but that love of team should not prevent you from honest evaluation, and being able to criticize the moves the front office makes in a likewise honest fashion. I said it then, and will say it now, although I support our QB and hope that he surpasses his big brother, trading Rivers and those picks was one of the bigger mistakes the Giants have made. Today, with the current players and Merriman added, we would have a defense as good as the Bears, more than likely. And have a dynamite QB, that has already eclipsed single game passing marks of Manning in his first year. Yes, that's an overrated stat, but it is an indicator of Rivers' tremendous skill. I do see a lot of good things from Manning, but I also see wobbly and inaccurate passes a lot of the time, and an inability to progress through reads quickly. The latter is not just me talking, that has been Coughlin's criticism as well. No, I am not a Manning hater, I support him and honestly want him to prove me wrong in my belief that the team made a mistake in trading for him...

 

But so far he hasn't, and that's just the truth.

 

 

That was the key phrase in your argument and I completely agree.

[crackback]

You have no basis for this claim. Your evaluation of the ACC is off. It's a pretty good football conference. It's better than the PAC-10, not as good as the SEC, and almost as good as the Big 10. That's just the truth. I live ACC football as an FSU fan, and I watch plenty of SEC games, too, living in FL. Your argument that teams key on LT is off, too, because we also have Tiki. In addition to Tiki, Eli has had the benefit of much better receivers than Rivers, like Plax, Shockey, and Toomer. Rivers has had to win games with his arm and has done so. The side arm thing is over-rated. It's not really side-arm anyways. And he's already shown more than Manning has in one year. Additionally, Eli in college played teams like Memphis (who he lost too, by the way), Vandy, Louisiana-Monroe, Texas Tech, Arkansas State, South Carolina (also not as good then), and that was just his senior year. So he didn't exactly run the gauntlet every week, dude. That's 6 games against average or poor teams. And he threw 10 INT's. Rivers? 7, despite 42 more pass attempts. And he threw for nearly 900 more yards than Eli, completing 72% of his passes. That denotes accuracy. No matter who you are playing, you still have to be damn accurate to compete 72%. Let me ask you... what has been the knock on Eli? Could it be accuracy? You want to talk about talent? With that side arm delivery of Rivers, he's more accurate than Eli, more mobile, more of a competitor, has stepped up his game more and more times than Eli, won all his bowl games, and has put up better numbers in year 1 than Eli has in 3 years. What is your basis for saying that he is not HALF the talent of Manning? Rivers is not my hero, but I recognize a great QB when I see one, and he is great. I don't see it in Manning. I don't I see an slightly better than average QB in Eli. That is a damn shame but that's what I see so far. And you can't tell me with a straight face, that if San Diego offered Rivers, Merriman, and Kaeding to the Giants for Manning right now, that you wouldn't be jumping out of your chair begging them to do it. I would be, because we would have a significantly better team. I'll support Eli, but I'm waiting for him to prove me otherwise that the trade wasn't a mistake. It's likely not going to happen. Stop being a homer.

What an honor it is to observe the writings of such a football scholar, gee you know conferences from the east coast to the west coast, and there strengths, why you even know all the precentages of manning and hero, you know the schedule of the sec ( it's really a round robin) you also know how a draft should be conducted, you know the teams that have the best receivers, you know! well this is taking to long gosh you just know to much. The truth is you just don't like Eli, and as for as being a homer, no I am just a fan.

[Herc]

tom waited two games too long to get eli in there. better late than never