RandolphScott Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 To borrow a phrase from the pastime of Cuba: "Good morning, good afternoon, goodnight." David Wilson (injury) Ruben Randle (sucks) and "athletically arrogant" Jayron Hosley (sucks something awful) have no panned out. Good picking. I won't even mention that our best pick from that draft is Markus Kuhn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's not Reese's job to develop talent. Very few draft picks are "NFL ready" and it's up to the COACHES to COACH the players. Randle has the physical tools required but hasn't learned the timing or skill to execute. That's not on Reese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's not Reese's job to develop talent. Very few draft picks are "NFL ready" and it's up to the COACHES to COACH the players. Randle has the physical tools required but hasn't learned the timing or skill to execute. That's not on Reese. It is up to the player to put those tools together. Randle has been coached but it is Randle who steps out on that field, hears the play, lines up, and then: Gets jammed at the line Runs the wrong route Doesn't catch the ball Deflects the ball Or does the catch the ball but then: Fumbles or Drops it See long list of things that could go wrong yet somehow Randle suffers from that every game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigblue25 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's not Reese's job to develop talent. Very few draft picks are "NFL ready" and it's up to the COACHES to COACH the players. Randle has the physical tools required but hasn't learned the timing or skill to execute. That's not on Reese. It is Reese's job to evalute that talent has far has it translates to the NFL. Nobody was thrilled with that draft at the time it happened, he reached because he wanted he wanted a certain niche going into the draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandolphScott Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's on Reese when he comes out after the pick and says "Rueben is NFL ready right now". 3 years later I'm still waiting for him to have a breakout game. Good thing Beckham really is NFL ready, he's gonna be a star in this league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's on Reese when he comes out after the pick and says "Rueben is NFL ready right now". 3 years later I'm still waiting for him to have a breakout game. Good thing Beckham really is NFL ready, he's gonna be a star in this league Shit Randle had his breakout game awhile ago, he is just the epitome of an inconsistency. He hasn't carried success over from game to game and I would even go so far as say from play to play. The draft is a crap shoot and that hasn't changed since the very first draft. I don't blame Reese for picking Randle, I blame Randle for failing to live up to expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 To borrow a phrase from the pastime of Cuba: "Good morning, good afternoon, goodnight." David Wilson (injury) Ruben Randle (sucks) and "athletically arrogant" Jayron Hosley (sucks something awful) have no panned out. Good picking. I won't even mention that our best pick from that draft is Markus Kuhn. Check out his run from 2009-2012. Of the guys in that time, only Pierre-Paul, the Mook, and Will Beatty are producing for this team. That's three fucking guys OUT OF 28. Early returns on the last two drafts look decent, but holy Christ, those four drafts were bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Honestly, we should just trade our third-round pick every year. We haven't drafted a productive third-rounder since Justin Tuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigblue25 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Honestly, we should just trade our third-round pick every year. We haven't drafted a productive third-rounder since Justin Tuck. I Liked what I seen from Bromley last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMFP Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 It's not Reese's job to develop talent. Very few draft picks are "NFL ready" and it's up to the COACHES to COACH the players. Randle has the physical tools required but hasn't learned the timing or skill to execute. That's not on Reese. It's up to Coughlin to teach a guy to catch a pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 It is up to the player to put those tools together. Randle has been coached but it is Randle who steps out on that field, hears the play, lines up, and then: Gets jammed at the line Runs the wrong route Doesn't catch the ball Deflects the ball Or does the catch the ball but then: Fumbles or Drops it See long list of things that could go wrong yet somehow Randle suffers from that every game And perhaps the worst and most damning...he has absolutely zero chemistry with Eli Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 For all his faults though, if Randle wasn't playing for us this year, we'd be in deeper shit then we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 It's up to Coughlin to teach a guy to catch a pass? YES. And to run a route, and to hold onto the ball, and to read a defense, and to create separation. THIS IS A COACH'S JOB, NOT A GENERAL MANAGER'S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandolphScott Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 But "NFL ready" Ruben Randle should know how to do that already, because our GM deemed him so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Coughlin taught tiki how to carry a ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 YES. And to run a route, and to hold onto the ball, and to read a defense, and to create separation. THIS IS A COACH'S JOB, NOT A GENERAL MANAGER'S. I get what you're saying, Tree, and you're right in many respects. But I do believe that football intelligence, potential coachability (if that is even a word), work ethic, and whether or not a player is a fit for your system ARE scoutable (again, not sure if that's a word). Often, having raw talent alone doesn't translate to NFL-caliber prospect. And I think that is where the disconnect lies with Mr. Reese. We've seen it with guys like Travis Beckham, Barden, Jernigan, Randle and Manningham (to a lesser extent) and all of the flop offensive lineman we've grabbed as well as with guys like Clint Sintim, Johnathan Goff, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 And when you consistently miss in the draft, you better be good at throwing money at free agents who can contribute to your team...and the Giants just have not been in the 2010s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Check out his run from 2009-2012. Of the guys in that time, only Pierre-Paul, the Mook, and Will Beatty are producing for this team. That's three fucking guys OUT OF 28. Early returns on the last two drafts look decent, but holy Christ, those four drafts were bad. 2009-Beatty is still on the team. Nicks gave us 3 seasons of spectacular play before he got injured in 2012. Andre Brown would have done well if he wasn't so brittle. 2010-2 quality starters in JPP and Joseph. Just because we didn't renew Joseph's contract doesn't make that a bad pick. Blaming Reese for Jones is just asinine. 2011-4 guys from that draft are still on the team, although Prince is the only one truly worthy of being a starter. Tyler Sash was a decent special teamer, which is what he was drafted for, but that was it. 2012- That was a bad draft. When your redeeming hope lies in Kuhn and Mosely, that's bad. You want to know what draft really killed this team? 2008. Not because it was bad; but because the potential was great, and all of them wound up with shortened careers. There were 4 good to very good starters in that class, and we wound up with half-assed versions of the players, if anything at all. We've been playing catch-up ever since. If Phillips/Thomas had decent legs, do you think we'd be playing Hosely and missing Will Hill? If Goff wasn't devastated, do you think we'd be worrying about Herzlich getting on the field? What would you do for a healthy Manningham right about now? I get sick just thinking about that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 2009-Beatty is still on the team. Nicks gave us 3 seasons of spectacular play before he got injured in 2012. Andre Brown would have done well if he wasn't so brittle. 2010-2 quality starters in JPP and Joseph. Just because we didn't renew Joseph's contract doesn't make that a bad pick. Blaming Reese for Jones is just asinine. 2011-4 guys from that draft are still on the team, although Prince is the only one truly worthy of being a starter. Tyler Sash was a decent special teamer, which is what he was drafted for, but that was it. 2012- That was a bad draft. When your redeeming hope lies in Kuhn and Mosely, that's bad. You want to know what draft really killed this team? 2008. Not because it was bad; but because the potential was great, and all of them wound up with shortened careers. There were 4 good to very good starters in that class, and we wound up with half-assed versions of the players, if anything at all. We've been playing catch-up ever since. If Phillips/Thomas had decent legs, do you think we'd be playing Hosely and missing Will Hill? If Goff wasn't devastated, do you think we'd be worrying about Herzlich getting on the field? What would you do for a healthy Manningham right about now? I get sick just thinking about that class. I see your point, but MY point is that there are three guys in four draft classes STILL ON THE TEAM and producing. Nicks helped us win a Super Bowl which is immeasurable... and then what? Joseph was a nice player, and is probably a nice player in Minnesota. He's not a nice player on the Giants. 4 guys from 2014? Do you really think JaQuain Williams, Jerrel Jernigan, and James Brewer are NFL caliber players? Yeah, there's been a ton of injuries, and I'm not sure who to blame for that. Jerry Palmieri has been with Coughlin since his days in Jacksonville... and Coughlin was run out of Jacksonville because he had three years where 15 players wound up on IR. I'm pretty sure Palmieri is having guys do routines that worked back in 1985. But Reese takes chances on these guys too. Sometimes you get a Jessie Armstead and it works out... but lately we've been getting a lot more Terrell Thomases. At some point, you have to stop making excuses and start drafting better. I'm hoping these last two are steps in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightFire Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I get what you're saying, Tree, and you're right in many respects. But I do believe that football intelligence, potential coachability (if that is even a word), work ethic, and whether or not a player is a fit for your system ARE scoutable (again, not sure if that's a word). Often, having raw talent alone doesn't translate to NFL-caliber prospect. And I think that is where the disconnect lies with Mr. Reese. We've seen it with guys like Travis Beckham, Barden, Jernigan, Randle and Manningham (to a lesser extent) and all of the flop offensive lineman we've grabbed as well as with guys like Clint Sintim, Johnathan Goff, etc. Well I think most teams do this. In the Finding Giants show I haven’t once witnessed the scouts checking grades or extra curricular activities. Unless they are arrested it's all about combine type crap. It's why a Tom Brady goes to the sixth round even when he had a good college career. It's why an idiot like Winston will get drafted in the first 2 rounds when he shouldn't be drafted at all. Same with Manziel. All that matters is size and speed. My favourite is when they scout a LBer and the guy says he’s good but not big enough for what the Giants want. I had to pause to let that statement fully sink in because you would never want to draft a productive player that can be at the right place to stuff plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMFP Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 YES. And to run a route, and to hold onto the ball, and to read a defense, and to create separation. THIS IS A COACH'S JOB, NOT A GENERAL MANAGER'S. So, really, we could draft anyone, and a great coach will get them to play awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 So, really, we could draft anyone, and a great coach will get them to play awesome. I'm saying there's only so much that you can place on Reese's picks (Coughlin is very involved in the scouting too btw). At a certain point it's up to the coaching staff to develop the boys into men. I think Randle is a prime example. His issues aren't with 'measurables' but with execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 2009-Beatty is still on the team. Nicks gave us 3 seasons of spectacular play before he got injured in 2012. Andre Brown would have done well if he wasn't so brittle. 2010-2 quality starters in JPP and Joseph. Just because we didn't renew Joseph's contract doesn't make that a bad pick. Blaming Reese for Jones is just asinine. 2011-4 guys from that draft are still on the team, although Prince is the only one truly worthy of being a starter. Tyler Sash was a decent special teamer, which is what he was drafted for, but that was it. 2012- That was a bad draft. When your redeeming hope lies in Kuhn and Mosely, that's bad. You want to know what draft really killed this team? 2008. Not because it was bad; but because the potential was great, and all of them wound up with shortened careers. There were 4 good to very good starters in that class, and we wound up with half-assed versions of the players, if anything at all. We've been playing catch-up ever since. If Phillips/Thomas had decent legs, do you think we'd be playing Hosely and missing Will Hill? If Goff wasn't devastated, do you think we'd be worrying about Herzlich getting on the field? What would you do for a healthy Manningham right about now? I get sick just thinking about that class. Forgot about Goff... he was going to be Da Man at Middle LB...losing him set us back a decade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMFP Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm saying there's only so much that you can place on Reese's picks (Coughlin is very involved in the scouting too btw). At a certain point it's up to the coaching staff to develop the boys into men. I think Randle is a prime example. His issues aren't with 'measurables' but with execution. The scouting report was spot on.....except for his ability to hold on the ball. Reese loves to pull the triggers on guys based upon physical attributes, not football accomplishments. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/rueben-randle?id=2533533 OverviewRandle is an early-entry junior who has become a late riser in this year's class. He was limited by inconsistent LSU quarterback play all year. He is an impressive athlete. Analysis Strengths Randle is a tall receiver who displays good balance throughout his route and leans on his defender well to create separation. He is learning how to work routes downfield and is a strong catcher of both high and low balls. He has good flexibility and really came along as a junior with his overall field awareness and ability to diagnose coverages to find his spots in zones. Weaknesses Randle is still developing many of his skills and will be more of a prospect. He still looked uncomfortable running some routes and isn't to a point where he is actively thinking about how to sell his corner on every play. He will take his eye off the ball across the middle and is inconsistent with his physicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I see your point, but MY point is that there are three guys in four draft classes STILL ON THE TEAM and producing. Nicks helped us win a Super Bowl which is immeasurable... and then what? Joseph was a nice player, and is probably a nice player in Minnesota. He's not a nice player on the Giants. 4 guys from 2014? Do you really think JaQuain Williams, Jerrel Jernigan, and James Brewer are NFL caliber players? Yeah, there's been a ton of injuries, and I'm not sure who to blame for that. Jerry Palmieri has been with Coughlin since his days in Jacksonville... and Coughlin was run out of Jacksonville because he had three years where 15 players wound up on IR. I'm pretty sure Palmieri is having guys do routines that worked back in 1985. But Reese takes chances on these guys too. Sometimes you get a Jessie Armstead and it works out... but lately we've been getting a lot more Terrell Thomases. At some point, you have to stop making excuses and start drafting better. I'm hoping these last two are steps in the right direction. 2011-4 guys from that draft are still on the team, although Prince is the only one truly worthy of being a starter. Tyler Sash was a decent special teamer, which is what he was drafted for, but that was it. Williams isn't worthy of being a starter because he hasn't developed. This is a common song with this team's linebackers. That points to one of my favorite position coaches. I would say Jernigan would be a better option in the slot right now than Parker, if he could ever stay fucking healthy. He's not seeing a probowl, but he has been known to occasionally catch something. Without argument, he's a career 4th WR--but a team does need a 4th WR. Injuries--it's football. I'll blame Palmieri for the preventable shit like hamstrings or torn pectoral muscles during training, but how do you prevent Thomas from getting injured 3 TIMES IN THE SAME KNEE!? Or Hixon? Or Phillips having a fixable problem in the knee that reveals an incorrectable problem? Or some scrub from Tampa landing on Nick's foot? Or Beason's toe for that matter? You can't--and you can't possibly know that's going to happen when you draft/sign them. We drafted Thomas a few years removed from the first knee injury, and he was fine. We drafted Webster in the second round in 2005 after he played his senior year on a badly injured foot, and rarely had a problem with him being injured. Go figure. If you want players for more than three years, you have to pay them, often for more than you want to. We didn't want to pay Joseph; and pointing out that shows one of the few areas we've drafted successfully--DT. Reece has actually used the draft pretty well to rotate players out of big contracts in a few positions--CB (Webster, Ross, Thomas, Amukamara) and WR come to mind--the problem is when you're spending premium picks every 2-3 years on the same positions, you can't use them elsewhere. And god help you if you pick wrong (Austin), or your pick has a short career(Thomas). I'm not sure if we pay JPP at the end of the season--I AM sure that if we do, someone on this site is going to freak out over how much we pay. How much whining has been going on over Beatty, who was given average pay for a LT? You occasionally hear it over Beason's contract, and everyone wanted him signed for a longer stay (including myself). I remember Accorsi getting excoriated for spending free agency "just signing his guys for too much." I'm not really finding fault in it, I guess that's part of modern fandom: but how else do you avoid big contracts unless you don't re-sign anyone? Hell, we were looking forward to getting out from under Tuck's contract, and we made out like a bandit for most of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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