anyone understand why

[Gspotter]

for Sinorice? I'm not trying to pile on, but did I miss something? Why is he even still part of our team? We parted with defensive talent that wasn't good but meant more to the team than him.

 

I'm confused, perhaps there's something I don't know or understand: I'm open to learning if that's the case.

 

I'm starting to think that Jerry Reese is a numb-nut. So far, lose Shockey, let Carr go, sign Rocky Bernard and Canty, let Pierce go and not really fill him. Is Jerry trying to be the GM who dies with the most amount of salary cap?

[fringe]

we talked about this a while back. consensus was it has to do with the whole no cap thing. unless someone is owed a bonus, it doesn't hurt to keep them on the team and see if another team is interested. of course with moonwalker moss, that is highly unlikely.

[MakeMeSomeFoodHo]

with that said, I tend to agree that Jerry Reese isnt a very good GM

[Sephiroth]

with that said, I tend to agree that Jerry Reese isnt a very good GM

 

Agreed.

 

All he did was have six of his eight picks in his first year (Ross, Smith, Alford, Boss, Johnson, Bradshaw) make major contributions en route to the team's first Super Bowl win in almost twenty years, and follow that up with three solid-to-good players (Phillips, Thomas, Manningham) and two guys who are competing for starting spots (Kehl, Goff) in his next year.

 

And while his free agent pickups have been less than stellar (except for Hedgecock), let's not forget all the dead wood (Petitgout, Chad Morton, R.W, Carlos Emmons) he cut out as well.

[Storm]

Agreed.

 

All he did was have six of his eight picks in his first year (Ross, Smith, Alford, Boss, Johnson, Bradshaw) make major contributions en route to the team's first Super Bowl win in almost twenty years, and follow that up with three solid-to-good players (Phillips, Thomas, Manningham) and two guys who are competing for starting spots (Kehl, Goff) in his next year.

 

And while his free agent pickups have been less than stellar (except for Hedgecock), let's not forget all the dead wood (Petitgout, Chad Morton, R.W, Carlos Emmons) he cut out as well.

 

I got a lot of love for RW....he had a bunch of big picks in that 07 playoff run....

[fringe]

I got a lot of love for RW....he had a bunch of big picks in that 07 playoff run....

 

in europe RW McQuarters is known as RW Royal with Cheese.

(yes fish, i know you've heard it before)

[BronxRik]

in europe RW McQuarters is known as RW Royal with Cheese.

(yes fish, i know you've heard it before)

 

What do them Europeans call an RW Big Mac?

[fringe]

What do them Europeans call an RW Big Mac?

 

mark mcgwire

[Allstarjim]

for Sinorice? I'm not trying to pile on, but did I miss something? Why is he even still part of our team? We parted with defensive talent that wasn't good but meant more to the team than him.

 

I'm confused, perhaps there's something I don't know or understand: I'm open to learning if that's the case.

 

I'm starting to think that Jerry Reese is a numb-nut. So far, lose Shockey, let Carr go, sign Rocky Bernard and Canty, let Pierce go and not really fill him. Is Jerry trying to be the GM who dies with the most amount of salary cap?

 

That's a little critical. If I'm evaluating JR, I would say he robbed the Saints in the Shockey trade. We got an extra 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder in that deal. While I wasn't impressed with the 5th round pick being used on Bomar, he is a project QB that will compete for Eli's understudy. And with the extra 2nd round pick, we got Beatty, already a guy that is ready to start on our offensive line... I would trade Shockey for Beatty straight up and feel that I won that deal big time.

 

As for Carr, his contract was up. He was a UFA. He wanted a chance to start. Can't fault JR for an unrestricted FA who is ready to move on. The Bernard signing was a miss... but most analysts thought it was a good sign at the time. The Canty deal can't be evaluated as he did not have a healthy season last year.

 

As for Pierce, it was time for the organization to improve that area. I have a lot of respect for Pierce, but he was very average last season, and we needed to move on. For me, I have no problem with Goff starting right now, or even Blackburn for that matter. But the offseason is not over.... there are still free agents out there and there is a draft to conduct. Cutting Pierce was the right decision right now.

 

All in all, I think JR has done a very good job as GM. I think he did not address the Safety position adequately last pre-season, and it hurt us. He should've gone outside the organization and gotten an established DC instead of Bill Sheridan, but that one I think is more on Coughlin. But the talent level this team has is outstanding, and JR is a big reason for that.

[Gspotter]

while I admit that I'm being harsh about JR, it's not all without merit. Yes, as Sep points out, his drafting has gone fairly well, but that's one tactic. Let's step out a few frames: we've decided to be cap friendly on the front end rather than on the back end.

 

JR won with a team that was largely composed of EA's starters, not too surprising there. Since that SB run, we've dismantled the running attack that defined us and our numbers show it. We lost our unique WR threat and sacrificed a season with a core that was devoid of a deep threat. We followed that up with a defensive hire for DC that was the worst choice sine Parcells successor at head coach and then picked up FA's like CC Brown. I can understand Canty, kind of Bernard, but we just whiffed on this one.

 

I've sen little in the way of progressive thinking by JR. What I see is a man who is a watered down version of the Eagles cap friendly approach and his vision for the team seems to be teetering between cap friendliness and draft first and last.

 

We really could have used some veteran talent brought in at LB and though nobody would pay a big, old name tons of money, I would have taken Joey Porter in one second even if he's not a MLB, he's experienced and without Kenny Phillips (should things go south with that knee), then who's the leader? Without a real force of experience and leadership, we can all site back and prepare for a season that's one and done at best.

[fishgutmartyr]

while I admit that I'm being harsh about JR, it's not all without merit. Yes, as Sep points out, his drafting has gone fairly well, but that's one tactic. Let's step out a few frames: we've decided to be cap friendly on the front end rather than on the back end.

 

JR won with a team that was largely composed of EA's starters, not too surprising there. Since that SB run, we've dismantled the running attack that defined us and our numbers show it. We lost our unique WR threat and sacrificed a season with a core that was devoid of a deep threat. We followed that up with a defensive hire for DC that was the worst choice sine Parcells successor at head coach and then picked up FA's like CC Brown. I can understand Canty, kind of Bernard, but we just whiffed on this one.

 

I've sen little in the way of progressive thinking by JR. What I see is a man who is a watered down version of the Eagles cap friendly approach and his vision for the team seems to be teetering between cap friendliness and draft first and last.

 

We really could have used some veteran talent brought in at LB and though nobody would pay a big, old name tons of money, I would have taken Joey Porter in one second even if he's not a MLB, he's experienced and without Kenny Phillips (should things go south with that knee), then who's the leader? Without a real force of experience and leadership, we can all site back and prepare for a season that's one and done at best.

 

We dismantled our running attack? We had virtually the same running attack we had in 2007 and 2008 with the exception of Derrick Ward. Guess what? He had a whopping 409 yds and a 3.6 rushing average last season in Tampa. He wouldn't have been the difference-maker: we had 3 RBs with varying degrees of injuries and at least two offensive linemen playing hurt (Seubert and MacKenzie). That doesn't happen, that would have been the difference.

 

Our receivers were more productive last year than any other Giants team I've ever seen. Was Burress more productive than any one of our individual receivers last year? Sure. But the sum of the parts was much better than the sum of the 2007 WRs. Besides, you can't fault Reese for Plaxico being gone.

 

How are you blaming Reese for the Sheridan hire? The defensive coordinator is the coach's call--and it wasn't an unreasonable pick at the time.

 

Free agency...outside of 2005, we've sucked at free agency. At least the part involving acquiring new players--before 2005 our best FA grabs were pretty much Feagles, Robbins, O'Hara, and Barrow. Although Reese hired Kawika Mitchell in the first place, Boley wasn't bad, and Canty remains to be seen. What we are good at, and continue to be good doing is keeping our core picks after they develop.

 

I want a MLB as much as anyone, in fact I don't much care for most of the LBs we have. But before we break out the torches and pitchforks, let's see what we look like in August and September.

[Sephiroth]

 

 

Our receivers were more productive last year than any other Giants team I've ever seen. Was Burress more productive than any one of our individual receivers last year? Sure. But the sum of the parts was much better than the sum of the 2007 WRs. Besides, you can't fault Reese for Plaxico being gone.

 

 

Actually, I'm fairly sure that Smith had more catches, yards, and TDs than Plaxico ever had in any season.

[Gspotter]

yes, the running attack was dismantled. Look at the productivity and so what was different? Formula had a lot to do with our ability to change up in running. You saw it when we had Ward, he was helped drive our success and yet he wasn't able to do it alone. Without him though, neither could we...

 

As for Plax to Smith comparisons, that's not a story told by the numbers alone. I don't recall a lot of game winning receptions by Smith, so he's good for the numbers, but he's a slot player and so he's there where they're vulnerable. I doubt anyone would say that they'd rather have Smith than Burress.

 

as for Sheridan, if you believe that the coach is picking the DC without oversight from JR, then you are crazy. The Sheridan hire was catastrophic and the evidence is clear on that front . The rationale why we picked him was based upon the continuity that we were to have from Spags system, but a little easier to manage or so it was said. We should have picked an experienced leader since Sheridan had not the personality for the job to match his predecessor. It's difficult to play for a cerebral coach once you've had a fiery one. It's easy to go the other way, but not to a more tame guy who wants to be in the box.

[fishgutmartyr]

yes, the running attack was dismantled. Look at the productivity and so what was different? Formula had a lot to do with our ability to change up in running. You saw it when we had Ward, he was helped drive our success and yet he wasn't able to do it alone. Without him though, neither could we...

 

The only thing Ward provided in 2008 that we didn't have in 2009 was an occasional receiver out of the backfield and a healthy season. If Andre Brown didn't get injured in preseason, we would have had the receiving threat last year as well--so Reese must have recognized that during the draft. I already mentioned what was different between 2008 and 2009: healthy backs and offensive linemen. Even Hedgecock was injured last year (shoulder)--so yeah, they weren't as productive.

 

As for Plax to Smith comparisons, that's not a story told by the numbers alone. I don't recall a lot of game winning receptions by Smith, so he's good for the numbers, but he's a slot player and so he's there where they're vulnerable. I doubt anyone would say that they'd rather have Smith than Burress.

 

Again--sum of the parts. I'm not even disagreeing with you that Burress was an important cog in our team in 2007: but Hicks, Smith and Manningham IMO were much better than Burress, Toomer, and a rookie Steve Smith. Burress' play also dropped-off pretty heavily even before the incident in 2008.

 

Hicks and Manningham also showed they had the potential to turn any distance pass into a TD, and did it more than once. A rookie and a 2nd year man getting his first significant playing time. I would take that over a single WR threat.

 

All that said, how is Reese responsible for Burress being a jackass? He did resign him in 2008...

as for Sheridan, if you believe that the coach is picking the DC without oversight from JR, then you are crazy. The Sheridan hire was catastrophic and the evidence is clear on that front . The rationale why we picked him was based upon the continuity that we were to have from Spags system, but a little easier to manage or so it was said. We should have picked an experienced leader since Sheridan had not the personality for the job to match his predecessor. It's difficult to play for a cerebral coach once you've had a fiery one. It's easy to go the other way, but not to a more tame guy who wants to be in the box.

 

You're looking at the hire in 20/20 hindsight. They were happy with him as a linebackers coach and he was supposedly learning under a near-deified defensive coordinator for two years. Smooth transition under a system that had our defensive team looking pretty good--it wasn't a left-field hire. And yes, Reese and the owners were ok with it. But the hire wasn't nearly as bad-looking in early 2009 as it was in Dec. 2009.

 

Blaming Reese for Sheridan is just silly. It's the coach's job to make the recommendation, and Reese wasn't the only person that needed to give approval. I'm not even blaming Coughlin for the hire: it was a reasonable hire that didn't work.

[Gspotter]

fishgut,

 

The running game is the result of a weak passing game and if we have not deep threat (perceived or otherwise) coverage is dictated, thus the Eagles blueprint against us from the year before.

 

Our running game hasn't been the same since we became a team that can be single covered. Smith isn't fast and playing slot isn't a bad position to be in for favorable coverage. Running game suffers; passing game becomes intermediate.

 

As for Plax, he dropped off because he still did draw serious attention. We never developed a balance beyond Toomer who's production was waining quite a bit.

 

As for the DC hire, you cannot allow your GM to get a free pass. Perhaps we've gotten used to JR, forgotten how EA ran things. We have a real challenge here: where's the vision, what's the identity, how are we meeting our needs and why on Earth are we not in the running for bigger names?

 

One of our biggest moves (Burress) changed our fortunes dramatically. Now we need D talent tlike that...

 

YOu can't just draft a championship, that wasn't the difference in the D's we got when we brought EA's vision to life. Read the scouting report on Eli, throws high...hmm, maybe EA understand the game.

 

This GM deserves more time, but not much more. Outside of the residue of EA's final campaign, JR has had two stinker seasons....

[fishgutmartyr]

fishgut,

 

The running game is the result of a weak passing game and if we have not deep threat (perceived or otherwise) coverage is dictated, thus the Eagles blueprint against us from the year before.

 

Our running game hasn't been the same since we became a team that can be single covered. Smith isn't fast and playing slot isn't a bad position to be in for favorable coverage. Running game suffers; passing game becomes intermediate.

 

As for Plax, he dropped off because he still did draw serious attention. We never developed a balance beyond Toomer who's production was waining quite a bit.

 

As for the DC hire, you cannot allow your GM to get a free pass. Perhaps we've gotten used to JR, forgotten how EA ran things. We have a real challenge here: where's the vision, what's the identity, how are we meeting our needs and why on Earth are we not in the running for bigger names?

 

One of our biggest moves (Burress) changed our fortunes dramatically. Now we need D talent tlike that...

 

YOu can't just draft a championship, that wasn't the difference in the D's we got when we brought EA's vision to life. Read the scouting report on Eli, throws high...hmm, maybe EA understand the game.

 

This GM deserves more time, but not much more. Outside of the residue of EA's final campaign, JR has had two stinker seasons....

But you argued a few posts up that we've dismantled our running game. Now it's our ineffective passing game that's at fault. Why can't the reason be that we had two offensive linemen playing hurt and missing games all season, a fullback playing without full use of his arms, and both of our starting RBs playing hurt all season? I would think that would be plenty of cause to experience a drop-off in production.

 

Again, I'm not arguing that Plax was a bad player. I stated that his impact dropped off in 2008--maybe with Smith and Manningham as they played in 2009, that wouldn't have happened. All I know is that the WRs this past year as a unit were more effective than the unit on the field in 2008.

 

You want to "blame" Reese for the DC hire? Fine. Just blame Mara, Tisch, and Coughlin as well, and I'll shut up about it. Although I don't see where blame is warranted considering the circumstances of the hire.

 

Let's not cover Accorsi in gold foil yet, either. That guy had some abysmal drafts (Look at those 1999-2002 drafts--7 out of 31 picks resulting in decent starters, 2 of those I would consider "stars". Although Griffin played his best seasons on the 'Skins.), lousy FA pickups (Carlos Emmons, Dorsey Levens, Barrett Green...), and created some really shitty teams. The offensive line from 2001-2003 was a study in failure. So I guess we did forget how EA ran things.

[Gspotter]

our pasing game dictates our running ability in this case. See the Philly game where they wrote a blue print on taking away all our power since they no longer had to respect our receiving threats. I believe that's fairly well established. Now Eli has to make faster choices, through sooner and viola Steve Smith is the best receiver we've ever had.....

 

EA wasn't perfect, no doubt, but he did build a SB winning team, let's see if JR can do the same, thus far, he's into year three and his last two are stinkers.

[fishgutmartyr]

our pasing game dictates our running ability in this case. See the Philly game where they wrote a blue print on taking away all our power since they no longer had to respect our receiving threats. I believe that's fairly well established. Now Eli has to make faster choices, through sooner and viola Steve Smith is the best receiver we've ever had.....

 

EA wasn't perfect, no doubt, but he did build a SB winning team, let's see if JR can do the same, thus far, he's into year three and his last two are stinkers.

The Philly games? If you're talking about the 2008 playoff game, the wide receivers were Hixon, Toomer, and Smith, and I'll agree with you--they were ineffective. But that has almost zero to do with the WR corp of 2009.

 

They took our running game away last regular season by scoring early and often. In fact, I'd argue the 2nd game showed how effective our passing game was by actually TIEING the game after being down by two scores. Of course, the D fixed that in the very next possession, but it's not like we didn't score points that game.

 

Accorsi played a major role in building the SB team, but didn't Reese play one as well? He became Director of Pro Personnel in 2002, and look how the drafts improved. That draft in 2007 was amazing, and played no small role in our title run; he signed Mitchell; and got rid of the dead wood on our oline, when everyone was freaking out over it.

 

2008 was a good season that ended badly--but they all end badly when you don't take home the Lombardi. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, the Giants are a stronger team with Reese than without him.

[Gspotter]

No, prior to the playoff game we played them in close proximity to losing Plaxico and that is when Philly put out their blueprint. We didn't fare much better in the playoff game either. No threat, full box, no ability to manage that with our large back being stuffed and strung out

 

I'm starting to think that you might be Jerry Reese the way you defend him...jk. I don't see the vision for the team...no extensive pass rush, no specific type of threat, just a fiscally responsible way to refill drafted talent. I don't think that alone does it which is why time is a factor in this opinion and Billicheck (for example) brings in vets ala Parcells style so you have proven people on the field.

 

We may have to agree to disagree because I think that our GM is marginal and shows no vision, just maintenence.

[Allstarjim]

No, prior to the playoff game we played them in close proximity to losing Plaxico and that is when Philly put out their blueprint. We didn't fare much better in the playoff game either. No threat, full box, no ability to manage that with our large back being stuffed and strung out

 

I'm starting to think that you might be Jerry Reese the way you defend him...jk. I don't see the vision for the team...no extensive pass rush, no specific type of threat, just a fiscally responsible way to refill drafted talent. I don't think that alone does it which is why time is a factor in this opinion and Billicheck (for example) brings in vets ala Parcells style so you have proven people on the field.

 

We may have to agree to disagree because I think that our GM is marginal and shows no vision, just maintenence.

 

 

I didn't see a Philly blueprint at work last season. I saw Jacobs running tentatively because he was trying to be someone he's not. Maybe he was trying to prolong his career by being less physical, I don't know. But he was looking for the hole too much rather than just hitting the hole and getting those legs going north/south.

 

The Plaxico-effect is now being blown up to near comedic proportions. Here's some news... Plaxico wasn't always double-covered, and when he was, it was mostly a safety helping out over the top, which had little to do with Jacobs' production. Most of Jacobs' good runs were stopped by linebackers, corners, and safeties. Jacobs beat the front four in 2008 with regularity. In 2009, he didn't. It had more to do with Jacobs and the O-line than Plaxico not being there. And another thing... Steve Smith drew his fair share of doubles last year.

 

Eli doesn't necessarily NEED a Plaxico anymore. This WR corps is very good, and Eli makes them better, not the other way around. And Nicks is a shining star in this bunch.... he's going to have a huge season coming up.

[hlb37]

I don't pretend to understand all of the arcane NFL rules but I did read somewhere that the Giants where FORCED to tender Moss as soon as they decided to extend a 2nd Rd tender to Cofield. ( something about same draft / active roster players ).

 

Could be totally off on this but I do recall reading it .

[Gspotter]

this is getting to be a circle jerk.

 

If you don't understand how passing games impact the running game, then you have homework to do.

 

If you believe that I'm saying that we need Plaxico instead of our current WR's then you need to reread things. The presence that Plax brought to the game kept defenses from playing closer to the line as well as coverage. It's much easier to stop 27 because of that and so that stats bear out that we were lesser. It's not injuries and it's fairly clear that our leadership spent once on a FA that made a huge difference and now we aren't, so last year was a training wheels year for our WR core.

[fringe]

this is getting to be a circle jerk.

 

If you don't understand how passing games impact the running game, then you have homework to do.

 

If you believe that I'm saying that we need Plaxico instead of our current WR's then you need to reread things. The presence that Plax brought to the game kept defenses from playing closer to the line as well as coverage. It's much easier to stop 27 because of that and so that stats bear out that we were lesser. It's not injuries and it's fairly clear that our leadership spent once on a FA that made a huge difference and now we aren't, so last year was a training wheels year for our WR core.

 

you're talking about having a balanced attack and i agree with this. you have to make a defense respect your receivers to open up the running game- and vice versa. last year, the defense didn't think we could hurt them too badly with the deep ball- so they bunched up. won't be doing that when big brandon marshall trots out in big blue.

[Gspotter]

blunatic and I are on the same page.

 

I just want this team to succeed and I believe our WR's will be better this year and by that I mean clutch players in big moments not merely big in shit games. I'd like to hear about Barden's progress too.

 

On the D side, wow, where to start. We are really not impressive and the pass rush thing is concept that we need to revive: let's have more of the 4 aces again. It made all the difference with Tuck, Strah, OSi, and the other dude.

 

I really want to be excited again about this team. This past year was a big thud from start to finish. ONly a few high points against Dallas and that was fun, but we need to have bigger play potential.

[fishgutmartyr]

No, prior to the playoff game we played them in close proximity to losing Plaxico and that is when Philly put out their blueprint. We didn't fare much better in the playoff game either. No threat, full box, no ability to manage that with our large back being stuffed and strung out

 

I'm starting to think that you might be Jerry Reese the way you defend him...jk. I don't see the vision for the team...no extensive pass rush, no specific type of threat, just a fiscally responsible way to refill drafted talent. I don't think that alone does it which is why time is a factor in this opinion and Billicheck (for example) brings in vets ala Parcells style so you have proven people on the field.

 

We may have to agree to disagree because I think that our GM is marginal and shows no vision, just maintenence.

"Oh, the vision thing..."

--George H.W. Bush

I'm not feeling a desperate need to defend him, I just think you're a bit overboard on the criticism. For instance, you're pointing to the results of the 2008 Philly games in an attempt to downplay the efforts of the 2009 wide receivers. We lost a lot of games last year scoring 25 points or better--that sounds like our defense looked bad, not that there was a blueprint of our offense discovered.

 

You're pointing specifically at him on the Sheridan hire when two other people had to sign off on it, let alone he wasn't the guy that suggested it.

 

Since he took over in Player Personnel we've had 2 amazing drafts (2005--no first rounder, only 4 picks: we end up with Webster, Jacobs, and Tuck!), and he's made more right decisions than wrong. Is he perfect? No: the man can't draft a LB to save his life (Reggie Torbor to date was the best of the crop--that's scary). He needs to draft offensive linemen other than tackles. His FA pickups so far have been meh. I think he's as stubborn as Accorsi was on keeping draft picks that aren't panning out: As this thread started, there is no sane reason to keep Moss. It's practically Tim Carter, part deux. Wilkinson and Kehl have done nothing to indicate that they should have a spot on this team (at least DeOssie is good on specials). I have no idea why their names would come up in MLB competition.

 

There's nothing wrong with maintenance when you're starting with a strong team. The Patriots were all about maintenance during this past decade. We plug up the center of our defense with a strong MLB, our defensive tackles get healthy and stay that way, and we are back in the playoffs.

 

I think Reese is the type that builds by draft first: if the picks don't work out, you use Free Agency to compensate. Ideally, you draft starters, you hire backups.