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What would you rather see happen


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I am more comfortable with our current linebackers. I am not so with our secondary. Even thought a lot have confidence with Johnson, I am not ready yet. I like what Webster has done but I am also not very comfortable with him yet.

 

I like Wilkerson, he is fast and can cover well. There are a few FA's lb's left and I would rather us do that. I am not too happy what's left in safeties in free agency. I would rather see us maybe move up in the draft and take someone in the secondary.

 

There has also been talk of moving Webster to safety. I have no idea how this is going to work or not work. It is it an easy position just to transfer too?

 

In the end, I rather see us go after Trufant than Hall.

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If the Giants made one move would you rather see them sign Briggs ir trade for Hall?

Or would you rather take your chances with Kiwi/Wilkerson and Webster/Ross and address soemthing else (not via draft).

#2. I believe both Kiwi and Wilkinson are intelligent players, and even though Wilkinson's a little small, I like his quickness. We saw what he can do on coverage. Webster/Ross will blossom further, so I think we're set there for awhile.

 

We are now in need of a legit safety, though. :(

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I'm really surprised the faith people are willing to have in Webster, I'm glad of how he played in the playoffs but a lot of you really seem to be putting a lot of eggs in that basket.

 

I have come to terms with a Wilk/Kiwi duo at lb. Both are young and athletic and I see no reason to stunt their development.

 

I agree we need a safety. johnson I can see starting and wouldn't mind, but we need a veteran to pair him with, someone to tutor and guide him a little.

 

 

 

 

That said.....

 

Trade for Hall (the price for Trufant would be just too high for me). Sign a veteran backup linebacker. Sign a veteran FS.

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Take our chances. Briggs would be a waste of cap space IMO. Hall would be a waste of cap space and a head case. Plus he has been burned quite a bit by top notch receivers, one of them in T.O.

 

 

It's not the end of the world. Really you have to look at it like this, we lost a stop gap linebacker, a mediocre saftey, and a bench warmer. We have not lost our nucleus. We'll be just fine.

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If I had my druthers.....I'd be thrilled to see the Giants sign a free agent linebacker....in particular, Calvin Pace, who is both a sack machine and a big time tackler. That way, we put a veteran in the mix and work Zak and Wilkenson into the frey in a reasonable time frame.

 

My last choice is to trade away our future and deplete our cap space by trading for Hall. If Hall was a free agent, it would be a no brainer and we should sign him. But to give up our first round pick and more sucks big time.

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If I had my druthers.....I'd be thrilled to see the Giants sign a free agent linebacker....in particular, Calvin Pace, who is both a sack machine and a big time tackler. That way, we put a veteran in the mix and work Zak and Wilkenson into the frey in a reasonable time frame.

 

My last choice is to trade away our future and deplete our cap space by trading for Hall. If Hall was a free agent, it would be a no brainer and we should sign him. But to give up our first round pick and more sucks big time.

Yeah, but it would be like like drafting Hall with our first pick. Dude's like 24 and is a pro bowler. We'd also likely lose a 3rd or 2nd, but for a shut down type corner who's got years left, he's worth it. Not only is he an immediate improvement over anything we have, he's better than anything we'd draft and he's as young as some draft choices.

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Yeah, but it would be like like drafting Hall with our first pick. Dude's like 24 and is a pro bowler. We'd also likely lose a 3rd or 2nd, but for a shut down type corner who's got years left, he's worth it. Not only is he an immediate improvement over anything we have, he's better than anything we'd draft and he's as young as some draft choices.

 

And Hall is younger than Ross. Wasn't Plax considered a "head case" in Pittsburgh? I do believe he was, if my memory serves me right. He might have also got burnt by TO but who hasn't? TO is still in a class by himself along with Moss and maybe a few others. The longer this is taking place, the better it will be for us. The longer it takes, the Falcons will be more anxious to get rid of him. We might be able to get away without giving a first rounder.

 

Kind of reminds you of the Johan Santana trade, if we do wait and no one else gives in by giving a ton away.

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Take our chances. Briggs would be a waste of cap space IMO. Hall would be a waste of cap space and a head case. Plus he has been burned quite a bit by top notch receivers, one of them in T.O.

It's not the end of the world. Really you have to look at it like this, we lost a stop gap linebacker, a mediocre saftey, and a bench warmer. We have not lost our nucleus. We'll be just fine.

agreed :TU:

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And Hall is younger than Ross. Wasn't Plax considered a "head case" in Pittsburgh? I do believe he was, if my memory serves me right. He might have also got burnt by TO but who hasn't? TO is still in a class by himself along with Moss and maybe a few others. The longer this is taking place, the better it will be for us. The longer it takes, the Falcons will be more anxious to get rid of him. We might be able to get away without giving a first rounder.

 

Kind of reminds you of the Johan Santana trade, if we do wait and no one else gives in by giving a ton away.

I dunno if headcase is the right word, but there were some definate issues between Plax and the Seelers. Actually, it is alot like Hall and the Falcons.

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I dunno if headcase is the right word, but there were some definate issues between Plax and the Seelers. Actually, it is alot like Hall and the Falcons.

 

Yeah I guess you are right with the choice of words. He was not thought nicely with Steelers fans. What I have seen and there are many around here. They called him soft for being injured a lot and not a hard worker and just not a team player. Those words are not justified now.

 

Remember the last time the Steelers played the Giants? Plaxico was out with an ankle injury and they had a good team that year. I believe that was one of Eli's coming out games. He was great in that game and went at with Rothlesburger the whole time.

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Yeah I guess you are right with the choice of words. He was not thought nicely with Steelers fans. What I have seen and there are many around here. They called him soft for being injured a lot and not a hard worker and just not a team player. Those words are not justified now.

 

Remember the last time the Steelers played the Giants? Plaxico was out with an ankle injury and they had a good team that year. I believe that was one of Eli's coming out games. He was great in that game and went at with Rothlesburger the whole time.

Yeah we stunk and they were awesome and I remember Woody Paige was the only guy to pick us to win that game. Almost pulled itout.

 

Funny thing is now Ben is wanting a tall athletic receiver to throw to.

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I am more comfortable with our current linebackers. I am not so with our secondary. Even thought a lot have confidence with Johnson, I am not ready yet. I like what Webster has done but I am also not very comfortable with him yet.

 

I like Wilkerson, he is fast and can cover well. There are a few FA's lb's left and I would rather us do that. I am not too happy what's left in safeties in free agency. I would rather see us maybe move up in the draft and take someone in the secondary.

 

There has also been talk of moving Webster to safety. I have no idea how this is going to work or not work. It is it an easy position just to transfer too?

 

In the end, I rather see us go after Trufant than Hall.

 

I am almost positive Trufant was franchised. I think safety is where we are definitely weakest now. Butler and Johnson are not a good combination but Gibril obviously got to much. At least the Giants aren't going to lose any big players this year so that's a big plus. Also for the posters talking about Plax and the Steelers he didn't come to the Giants and change much. He still does get injured and does take plays off (remember Plexiglass and Relaxico). Anyway he is a very good WR though and during the playoffs he definitely did step it up, especially against Green Bay.

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I am almost positive Trufant was franchised. I think safety is where we are definitely weakest now. Butler and Johnson are not a good combination but Gibril obviously got to much. At least the Giants aren't going to lose any big players this year so that's a big plus. Also for the posters talking about Plax and the Steelers he didn't come to the Giants and change much. He still does get injured and does take plays off (remember Plexiglass and Relaxico). Anyway he is a very good WR though and during the playoffs he definitely did step it up, especially against Green Bay.

I think a lot of that changed this year, imo he was as much a team player this year as anyone on the team, if not more. Not to start another Tiki bashing rant, but I get the feeling he did a lot of damage to the team than he gets credit for as far as locker room un-easyness.

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Let me ask some questions to you guys who are salivating over Hall.

 

1) How many superbowl teams were built around a cornerback? Please come up with some figures that proves a cornerback put a team in the superbowl.

 

2) The term "shutdown" corner sounds impressive....but it's only a hyped up word used by fans that hints that a player is just so great that he will simply shut down every single pass play. Not too reasonable to think one guy can cover the entire field....not to mention, Hall has been burned plenty of times in his career. You must look at the actual stats. Now I have to admit, that if a cornerback played all 16 games and never once was a pass completed to a guy he was covering and the corner actually intercepted nearly every pass intended for the reciever he was on....then I'd say, "yup, that's a shutdown corner". What makes Hall a "shutdown" corner, but not someone like Samuel? Where is the "demarcation" line between "shutdown" and "solid"?

 

3) Hall has averaged 4.25 interceptions and 50 tackles a year (that's approximately 1 interception per 4 games and 3 tackles per game). At 10 million per year, that's a little over 2 million dollars per interception or 200,000 dollars per tackle. By comparison, Asante Samuel averages 8 interceptions per year (16 in the past 2 years) tying Champ Bailey in 2006 with 10 interceptions. By the way, Champ Bailey has averaged 80 tackles per year or roughly 30 more tackles a year than Hall. But no one is calling Champ Bailey a "shutdown" corner....just a damn good cornerback who made 6 million in 2006, and now makes nearly 8 million (wiht incentives).....2 million less than Hall wants without any incentives. Do we really want to pay that much?

 

4) Eli is our highest paid player at 45-54 million over 6 years. Justin Tuck is now signed for 5 years at 30 million. In essence, Eli is getting around 8 million a year and Tuck is getting 6 million a year. But getting back to Hall. He wants 10 million a year and a longer contract than any other Giants player.....that's more than Eli....that's more than Tuck and Osi combined. It's more than Shockey and twice the amount that Antonio Pierce (the true captain of the defense) makes....and in fact, is more than the entire defensive backfield makes combined. How will that effect the guys "that took us all the way to a superbowl win without him" to watch someone else make an incredible amount of more money than them?

 

When you spend that kind of money on a player, the outcome of nearly every single game MUST be contingent upon unrealistic play of the highest paid player on the team. After all....you build the team around the highest paid guy who is your star among stars.... Lebron James, Carmello Anthony, Kobe Bryant....etc.

 

How will the rest of the players feel in the coming seasons after they control the line of scrimmage and get a couple of sacks, pressure the shit out of the QB.....yet the guy on the team making twice what they make just had his 4th game in a row without an interception and got burned on a cutback play he should've seen coming?

 

Bottom line: YOU DON'T BUILD YOUR TEAM AROUND A CORNERBACK ----- YOU BUILD A TEAM AROUND THE TRENCHES AND THE QUARTERBACK-----THAT IS THE NUCLEUS OF THE TEAM.

 

5) Lastly.....first round draft picks are worth a ton in this day of parity football. It's the only way to put a potential pro-bowler on the team for 4 or 5 years for reasonable money. You don't give up multiple picks, including a first rounder for a decent cornerback who will be a prima donna on the team because he has the Bentley and tons more money than the rest of the players.

 

 

Sorry.....but giving up several draft picks (including our first rd) and then paying one guy more money than any other guy on the team just doesn't make any sense to me. It's a great thing to have a solid corner, I mean really, really nice.....but teams do not get carried into the superbowl on the backs of a cornerback.

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Let me ask some questions to you guys who are salivating over Hall.

 

1) How many superbowl teams were built around a cornerback? Please come up with some figures that proves a cornerback put a team in the superbowl.

 

 

I hadn't realized anyone was talking about building the team around Hall? We just won the super bowl, not much building left to do. however, if you have the chance to add a "very good corner" at a very reasonable price when you have an under-performer who happened to have a great playoff run, shouldn't you do it?

 

2) The term "shutdown" corner sounds impressive....but it's only a hyped up word used by fans that hints that a player is just so great that he will simply shut down every single pass play. Not too reasonable to think one guy can cover the entire field....not to mention, Hall has been burned plenty of times in his career. You must look at the actual stats. Now I have to admit, that if a cornerback played all 16 games and never once was a pass completed to a guy he was covering and the corner actually intercepted nearly every pass intended for the reciever he was on....then I'd say, "yup, that's a shutdown corner". What makes Hall a "shutdown" corner, but not someone like Samuel? Where is the "demarcation" line between "shutdown" and "solid"?

 

 

Nobody should take the term "shut-down" literal. It's an implication of skill level. Just like Ryan Leaf wasn't a bust, he just sucked. he didn't actually break into pieces.

 

 

 

3) Hall has averaged 4.25 interceptions and 50 tackles a year (that's approximately 1 interception per 4 games and 3 tackles per game). At 10 million per year, that's a little over 2 million dollars per interception or 200,000 dollars per tackle. By comparison, Asante Samuel averages 8 interceptions per year (16 in the past 2 years) tying Champ Bailey in 2006 with 10 interceptions. By the way, Champ Bailey has averaged 80 tackles per year or roughly 30 more tackles a year than Hall. But no one is calling Champ Bailey a "shutdown" corner....just a damn good cornerback who made 6 million in 2006, and now makes nearly 8 million (wiht incentives).....2 million less than Hall wants without any incentives. Do we really want to pay that much?

 

As ar as stats go, stats for a corner are useless. Deion Sanders in his career had more than 50 tackles once and wanna know what his average INT per year was for his first 4 years (like Hall)? 4.25.

 

The reason gerat corners don't have tons of tackles and int's is because opposing offenses tend to shy away from hrowing their direction.

 

I'd say Sanders played a pretty significant role in the Cowboys and 49ers championships.

 

 

4) Eli is our highest paid player at 45-54 million over 6 years. Justin Tuck is now signed for 5 years at 30 million. In essence, Eli is getting around 8 million a year and Tuck is getting 6 million a year. But getting back to Hall. He wants 10 million a year and a longer contract than any other Giants player.....that's more than Eli....that's more than Tuck and Osi combined. It's more than Shockey and twice the amount that Antonio Pierce (the true captain of the defense) makes....and in fact, is more than the entire defensive backfield makes combined. How will that effect the guys "that took us all the way to a superbowl win without him" to watch someone else make an incredible amount of more money than them?

 

 

Osi will be re-signed. Eli, with a solid improved regular season and another playoff run with a couple wins will have his contract ro-worked. Tuck, for the most part is a back up player for now. No matter how good he is and what his future holds, if strahan returns technicallyhe'll be a back up. Shockey has injury problems and Pierce might even be resigned to a better contract, but Pierce although a leader, is not a top tier MLB.

 

And I am almost positive everyone on the team will be estatic to have Hall at any cost, except for maybe Webster.

 

When you spend that kind of money on a player, the outcome of nearly every single game MUST be contingent upon unrealistic play of the highest paid player on the team. After all....you build the team around the highest paid guy who is your star among stars.... Lebron James, Carmello Anthony, Kobe Bryant....etc.

 

How will the rest of the players feel in the coming seasons after they control the line of scrimmage and get a couple of sacks, pressure the shit out of the QB.....yet the guy on the team making twice what they make just had his 4th game in a row without an interception and got burned on a cutback play he should've seen coming?

 

Bottom line: YOU DON'T BUILD YOUR TEAM AROUND A CORNERBACK ----- YOU BUILD A TEAM AROUND THE TRENCHES AND THE QUARTERBACK-----THAT IS THE NUCLEUS OF THE TEAM.

 

You cannot compare basketball to football. In BBall 1 player is the difference. Kobe, lebron, etc can win with scrubs. In football you need many good players, or at least a couple stars and decent players surrounding them.

 

Also, I would say our trenches and QB are pretty solid, no? With the exception of maybe depth or the very very minimal possibility we go after a stud LT. I repeat, at a reasonable originol cost why not add to the team?

 

5)

Lastly.....first round draft picks are worth a ton in this day of parity football. It's the only way to put a potential pro-bowler on the team for 4 or 5 years for reasonable money. You don't give up multiple picks, including a first rounder for a decent cornerback who will be a prima donna on the team because he has the Bentley and tons more money than the rest of the players.

 

Hall would be better than any player we could possibly draft. And he is not just decent, forget stats they are useless in the secondary. Why do you say he will be a primadonna? Plax waas a selfish abby just 2 years ago. Shockey, the guy you think is underpaid, is known as a baby, and worse, not a eam player. Also, top tier CB's demand more money than top tier TE's.

 

 

Sorry.....but giving up several draft picks (including our first rd) and then paying one guy more money than any other guy on the team just doesn't make any sense to me. It's a great thing to have a solid corner, I mean really, really nice.....but teams do not get carried into the superbowl on the backs of a cornerback.

 

Again, Deion Sanders had as much impact on the Cowboys and 9ers runs as any person on those teams.

 

When you don't have drastic holes to fill, and have a chance to add one of the best CB's in the game today for a couple draft picks, you do it. GB didn't wanna give up a 3rd or 4th round pick for Moss.

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VG, I think you're taking Bleedin comment about building a team around Hall too literally. His point about Hall wanting to be paid more than any Giant smacks of someone who will almost win games on his own, but he's never done that in Atlanta or come close. And you're comment about Shockey not being a team player, fair enough you're entitled to your opinion, but Hall is also supposed to be a selfish player....really selfish.

 

Frankly, he's not worth it to me, leave him where he is.

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Take our chances. Briggs would be a waste of cap space IMO. Hall would be a waste of cap space and a head case. Plus he has been burned quite a bit by top notch receivers, one of them in T.O.

It's not the end of the world. Really you have to look at it like this, we lost a stop gap linebacker, a mediocre saftey, and a bench warmer. We have not lost our nucleus. We'll be just fine.

 

That maybe true but we need to upgrade our team nonetheless. I'm leaning towards getting Hall. I think Briggs would command a whole lot of money and I'd like to see Wilkerson on the field.

 

That said, I won't lose any sleep if we don't get either one.

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VG, I think you're taking Bleedin comment about building a team around Hall too literally. His point about Hall wanting to be paid more than any Giant smacks of someone who will almost win games on his own, but he's never done that in Atlanta or come close. And you're comment about Shockey not being a team player, fair enough you're entitled to your opinion, but Hall is also supposed to be a selfish player....really selfish.

 

Frankly, he's not worth it to me, leave him where he is.

I admit that was a harsh thing to say about Shock, it was an attempt to point out a pretty common perception.

 

 

And here's the thing, wasn't Asante looking for a hundred million dollar contract or some shit? Just because a player asks for a lot, doesn't mean he'll get it. He'll be paid well wherever he goes, but it likely won't be 10 milla year. sante is regarded as possibly the best corner in the league, so thats the bar standard as far as contracts go.

 

 

Also, like I said, Osi and possibly li will have new deals within the next couple years, making them the highest paid members of the team. Hell, even Plax could endup really well paid.

 

 

s for Hall's selfishness. Great corners and great wide receivers are all extremely selfish and boisterous, it's part of the way they are. And with the leadership we have on the defense, I believe that will be tempered. They already went through the Tiki shit, and won a championship as soon as he left. They won't let a loudmouth ruin the team again.

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I am almost positive Trufant was franchised. I think safety is where we are definitely weakest now. Butler and Johnson are not a good combination but Gibril obviously got to much. At least the Giants aren't going to lose any big players this year so that's a big plus. Also for the posters talking about Plax and the Steelers he didn't come to the Giants and change much. He still does get injured and does take plays off (remember Plexiglass and Relaxico). Anyway he is a very good WR though and during the playoffs he definitely did step it up, especially against Green Bay.

 

Yes, I was Plax's biggest critic... mainly for not playing like he was supposed to. This season, it's a different Plax... a team player.. a guy who toughs it out...

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