Bring back Fassel to consult on the offense?

[fringe]

this conversation is tired, Kid and not on subject. we were talking about the hypothetical of fassel helping the Giants this year.

[Herc]

EA hates fassel, it'll never happen while he's the gm

[Hampton27 missed]

Coughlin inherited a 4-12 team that quit on their coach (Fassel). That's why I could give a rats ass if they like their coach. Sure they were good in all the skilled positions but their o-line was in shambles. Coughlin brought in Chris Snee to solidify the o-line. Anybody else notice that our draft picks have been better since Coughlin arrived? No doubt, Coughlin has made some huge mistakes this year. As far as the players revolting, they'll be playing for a new team next year. I heard that Peter King said that they were already in the process of printing up an extension for TC.

[mickeef2]

at least fassel gave us a superbowl (with inferior talent).

 

That's like saying "I gave you a big rock. So what if it's cubic zirconia." I love how the Fassel defenders bring up his Super Bowl appearance as proof of his greatness. Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards was an Olympian (look him up). That didn't make him a great ski jumper. His other two playoff appearances resulted in the two biggest post-season meltdowns in Giant history. Nice.

 

Well said, Midas.

[Herc]

EA has always found good players in every round other than the 1st. no difference in that department since the head coaching change. he drafted david diehl while fassel was coach too. same with gibril wilson. the line wasn't solidified until EA opened the checkbook and signed a legit RT for big money--something he wasn't willing to do until the last couple of years. coughlin didn't bring in anybody, he's not the gm.

[Herc]

That's like saying "I gave you a big rock. So what if it's cubic zirconia." I love how the Fassel defenders bring up his Super Bowl appearance as proof of his greatness. Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards was an Olympian (look him up). That didn't make him a great ski jumper. His other two playoff appearances resulted in the two biggest post-season meltdowns in Giant history. Nice.

 

Well said, Midas.

 

again, you're trying to change the argument. this is about fassel vs coughlin, not fassel's place in the history of NFL coaches. we weren't supposed to go to the superbowl in 2000, but we sure as hell were this year

[Herc]

seriously mickeef, if you think coughlin is better than fassel, i'd like to hear why. and saying that fassel wasn't a 'great' coach (something i've never ever said) is not enough evidence to say that coughlin is better.

 

this isn't about fassel defenders or saying that fassel was a great coach. this is about fassel being better than coughlin. i've listed quite a few reasons why he's better and you've responded to one of them and didn't state how coughlin was better in that dept either (not that you can, seeing as how coughlin has never been to a superbowl)

[mickeef2]

again, you're trying to change the argument. this is about fassel vs coughlin, not fassel's place in the history of NFL coaches. we weren't supposed to go to the superbowl in 2000, but we sure as hell were this year

 

Actually, it's all about Fassel's place. You don't think Fassel should've been fired. You've made it clear many times that you're very bitter about it. You don't merely defend Fassel as being better than Coughlin. You go out of your way to argue what a good coach he was, how he "did so much with so little". Midas, you make it sound like the guy was working with a club team. I won't even lower myself to rolling off the talent that Jim Fassel had at his disposal during his tenure, but there was plenty of it. You act like the guy was Tom Landry compared to Coughlin. At least someone saw enough in Coughlin to give him a second chance. Think you'll ever be able to say the same about Easy Jim?

[Hampton27 missed]

EA has always found good players in every round other than the 1st. no difference in that department since the head coaching change. he drafted david diehl while fassel was coach too. same with gibril wilson. the line wasn't solidified until EA opened the checkbook and signed a legit RT for big money--something he wasn't willing to do until the last couple of years. coughlin didn't bring in anybody, he's not the gm.

In no way am I defending TC. He's made alot of mistakes. TC has that BC connection though, which brought us Snee and Kiwi. It ticks me off that these players quit on Fassel and now they hate TC. I look at it this way, they should have never quit on Fassel. They knew the alternative at that time.

[mickeef2]

seriously mickeef, if you think coughlin is better than fassel, i'd like to hear why. and saying that fassel wasn't a 'great' coach (something i've never ever said) is not enough evidence to say that coughlin is better.

 

this isn't about fassel defenders or saying that fassel was a great coach. this is about fassel being better than coughlin. i've listed quite a few reasons why he's better and you've responded to one of them and didn't state how coughlin was better in that dept either (not that you can, seeing as how coughlin has never been to a superbowl)

 

Where have I said that Coughlin is better than Fassel was? In fact, I said that they are equally horrible, almost mirror images of each other in their ineptitude. You, however, want to believe that Fassel was this great coach who got a bum rap. The guy was a stiff, Midas.

[Herc]

Actually, it's all about Fassel's place. You don't think Fassel should've been fired. You've made it clear many times that you're very bitter about it. You don't merely defend Fassel as being better than Coughlin. You go out of your way to argue what a good coach he was, how he "did so much with so little". Midas, you make it sound like the guy was working with a club team. I won't even lower myself to rolling off the talent that Jim Fassel had at his disposal during his tenure, but there was plenty of it. You act like the guy was Tom Landry compared to Coughlin. At least someone saw enough in Coughlin to give him a second chance. Think you'll ever be able to say the same about Easy Jim?

 

if you can't stick to the discussion at hand then there's no reason to continue. this isn't about me or what i said 3 years ago when fassel was fired. this is about RIGHT NOW and me making the statment that coughlin is not as good a coach as fassel. if you dont wnat to have that discussion that make a separate thread about how much i love fassel. i have said a million times that he deserved to be fired as 4-12 was not acceptable for the amount of talent he had. when i have defended fassel since his firing it has been in the context of people saying he was a horrible coach--something i disagree with. i do not think 3 playoff trips in 7 seasons and a superbowl appearance are horrible. maybe it's because im too young to have been around during the parcells era.

 

what i find frustrating is that i made a statement that coughlin wasnt better than fassel and you have attempted to turn it into me saying fassel's a great coach. i have also made the statement that coughlin has had way more talent and free agency money to work with and you are now attempting to turn that into me saying fassel had NO talent at all. i cannot have a discussion under these circumstances. when an argument has been made, then facts are to be presented and refuted, IMO that is the best way to have any sort of sports argument.

[Herc]

Where have I said that Coughlin is better than Fassel was? In fact, I said that they are equally horrible, almost mirror images of each other in their ineptitude. You, however, want to believe that Fassel was this great coach who got a bum rap. The guy was a stiff, Midas.

 

please point out where i said any of this. the one thing i will say i have said is that i do think he got a bum rap. he's not agreat coach but i do think when people look back at the fassel era they underrate it. but 4-12 was unacceptable and he had to go. i didnt like coughlin as a replacement at the time, i wanted in order 1) crennel 2) smith 3)weiss 4) coughlin.

[fringe]

please point out where i said any of this. the one thing i will say i have said is that i do think he got a bum rap. he's not agreat coach but i do think when people look back at the fassel era they underrate it. but 4-12 was unacceptable and he had to go. i didnt like coughlin as a replacement at the time, i wanted in order 1) crennel 2) smith 3)weiss 4) coughlin.

i wanted jim mora jr. oh well....

[mickeef2]

the one thing i will say i have said is that i do think he got a bum rap.

 

Whether you realize it or not, this is a lot more obvious than you think. I suppose loyalty isn't a bad trait, but you defend Kevin Brown and Trevor Hoffman (not to open up old wounds), for example, in the same manner. You can insist all you want that you didn't think Fassel was "great", but you certainly thought enough of the guy to defend him when absolutely nobody who was a Giant fan during his tenure does the same.

 

Again, I want Coughlin fired immediately. I never said (not recently, anyway) that he was better than Fassel. By the same token, I'm not foolish enough to believe that Fassel's playoff appearances (two one-and-out collapses, and possibly the worst thrashing in Super Bowl history) mean a thing.

 

By the way, if you want to get into personnel- Tom Coughlin built a championship calibre team from scratch in Jacksonville, pretty much on his own in a very short period of time. I gotta believe at least some of that success had to do with coaching.

[gateb]

I thought Lovie Smith was the once every 5 years type coach when he came out. I was really pulling for the Giants to get him, but Coughlin was second because we needed discipline and that's what he was supposed to bring. I guess he didn't.

[Nas]

lots of injuries

 

lots of penalties

 

playing down to their opponents level

 

choking away big leads (at least the 97 vikings, 2002 niners, and 2002 titans were playoff caliber teams)

 

players quitting on and having no respect for the head coach

 

these are all things we remember about the jim fassel era. what has changed since coughlin has arrived? all he's done is made each of those things worse in a shorter amount of time. EA gave fassel kenny holmes, matt bryant, rodney williams, matt allen, trey junken, ron dayne, mike barrow, and ian allen. EA gave coughlin pierce, eli, burress, mckenzie, feely, snee, arrington, etc. the one year we didn't have injuries we coasted through an easy schedule ina weak conference and got exposed as a poorly coached team in the playoffs.

 

at least fassel gave us a superbowl (with inferior talent).

 

i've never said fassel is a great coach,and putting those words in my mouth will not steer the argument in a different direction. fassel > coughlin

 

Oh wow, somebody took notes.

[Herc]

Whether you realize it or not, this is a lot more obvious than you think. I suppose loyalty isn't a bad trait, but you defend Kevin Brown and Trevor Hoffman (not to open up old wounds), for example, in the same manner. You can insist all you want that you didn't think Fassel was "great", but you certainly thought enough of the guy to defend him when absolutely nobody who was a Giant fan during his tenure does the same.

 

Again, I want Coughlin fired immediately. I never said (not recently, anyway) that he was better than Fassel. By the same token, I'm not foolish enough to believe that Fassel's playoff appearances (two one-and-out collapses, and possibly the worst thrashing in Super Bowl history) mean a thing.

 

By the way, if you want to get into personnel- Tom Coughlin built a championship calibre team from scratch in Jacksonville, pretty much on his own in a very short period of time. I gotta believe at least some of that success had to do with coaching.

 

i've been a giant fan since '93 and a padres fan since '94. as a fan i have seen no championships. i have one superbowl trip, one world series trip, and 8 combined trips to the playoffs between the two teams. three of the baseball playoff trips ended in sweeps, two of the giants playoff trips ended in blown leads, another was a shut out and the other was a thrashing. this is what i've had to hang my hat on as a sports fan. so when you mention guys like hoffman and brown you are not opening up old wounds, you are bringing back good memories. that '98 season is a big deal to me, so when you bring those guys up i think of the two best players on my favorite team the year they made it all the way to the world series. when you bring up hoffman i think "most saves ever, best save percentage ever", when you bring up brown i think of his complete game 2 hit 16 k performance against randy johnson in the NLDS. this is what happens when your teams have never won anything, you see things differently than those who have won championships. yeah if i was older and saw the two championship seasons i guess i wouldn't hold fassel in such high regard, but i grew up in the dan reeves era and one season this geeky looking guy i never heard of goes 10-5-1 with kannel at qb and way leading the team in rushing and it's extremely exciting to me. that was a great season regardless of how it ended. same goes for 2000, the guarentee speech and the subsequent winning streak still make me feel good when i think back on them. so yeah, im loyal, and you've always seemed to take it personally that im loyal to those 3 guys and i never understood why. hoffman i understood, you got mad that day he blew that save to the yanks. fassel i get as well, he was your coach too and he didn't bring home any championships and had bad endings to some seasons. brown i'll never get, the guy helped you break an 86 year championship drought. but yeah, these are the highlights of my life as a fan and i recognize that they are pathetic compared to yankee fans my age or red sox fans my age but whatever, i made my choice as a fan as a kid and i'll stick with them. as for me defending these guys, i dont see what the problem is with each individual argument. it's not like i make it personal with people, i bring up facts every single time and this thread is a good example of it. people can feel free to disagree with me, but im not going to change my stance if i think im right

[boohyah]

Barry Switzer and Bobby Ross went to the Super Bowl too.

 

Look, I think Fassel may be the most influential HC in Giants history. He was the first coach to give us offense! I think he could be another Coryell if he would just specialize on being an offensive guru. His management of the other 2 facets were weak.

 

 

Ray handley could have taken that Cowboys team to a superbowl win. In fact Switzer probably kept the Cowboys from winning more than one during his reign. His main claim to fame was totally pissing off his hall of fame qb!

 

Bobby Ross was an okay coach in a God awful AFC.

[boohyah]

Whether you realize it or not, this is a lot more obvious than you think. I suppose loyalty isn't a bad trait, but you defend Kevin Brown and Trevor Hoffman (not to open up old wounds), for example, in the same manner. You can insist all you want that you didn't think Fassel was "great", but you certainly thought enough of the guy to defend him when absolutely nobody who was a Giant fan during his tenure does the same.

 

Again, I want Coughlin fired immediately. I never said (not recently, anyway) that he was better than Fassel. By the same token, I'm not foolish enough to believe that Fassel's playoff appearances (two one-and-out collapses, and possibly the worst thrashing in Super Bowl history) mean a thing.

 

By the way, if you want to get into personnel- Tom Coughlin built a championship calibre team from scratch in Jacksonville, pretty much on his own in a very short period of time. I gotta believe at least some of that success had to do with coaching.

 

 

I thought fassel was a good coach too, still do. We had a considerable amount of success during his run and even though by his "7th season", he had run his course, he never had the turbulent seasons that Coughlin has had in just 3. Look at the laughing stock this team is becoming right now. Fassel simply ran his course as a Giants coach, that's all. And those people here who did not get pscyched about our Superbowl 35 run, is kidding themselves. Since the parcells years, how many games back to back have we won like those 2 in the playoffs that year against Philly and Minny?. So we lost in the Superbowl, guess what team was beating the Ravens that year.............none, face facts, and even then we were a bullshit call away from that game been turned around. Fassel wasn't great, great is Landry/Walsh/Shula etc. but he was pretty decent IMO.

 

Coughlin facts: He did one season, his second where he did a good job, his subsequent trip to the championship game was a disasterous loss at home to the Titans, with his roster being the most expensive in football that year. Coughlin's last 3 seasons in Jax, all losing ones.

[fishgutmartyr]

If Coughlin goes, can we move on from both these assholes? I mean, should we give Reeves a try-out too?

 

The whole Fassel/Coughlin thing was debated weeks ago--their records with the Giants were about the same at this point in their tenures. The difference is the length of time it took for the team to implode, if that's what is happening (I'm still holding on to hope for Sunday--even if it's a fool's hope).

[boohyah]

The Fassel versus Coughlin debate is one of the best discussions out there. What can I tell you, perhaps we should just create a thread of it's one and keep the debate there, as it seems to creep onto a lot of threads.

[Herc]

i think it's a good debate too, but if people wnat to keep it out of this thread that's fine. i just made an offhand half-joking comment.

 

the last thing i'll say about the subject is this: when coughlin takes us to a superbowl i'll change my position. if he turns everything around and not only takes us to the playoffs but turns in a satisfactory effort (like win a playoff game) i'll get off his back, but as of right now i want to fight him

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

I thought fassel was a good coach too, still do. We had a considerable amount of success during his run and even though by his "7th season", he had run his course, he never had the turbulent seasons that Coughlin has had in just 3. Look at the laughing stock this team is becoming right now. Fassel simply ran his course as a Giants coach, that's all. And those people here who did not get pscyched about our Superbowl 35 run, is kidding themselves. Since the parcells years, how many games back to back have we won like those 2 in the playoffs that year against Philly and Minny?. So we lost in the Superbowl, guess what team was beating the Ravens that year.............none, face facts, and even then we were a bullshit call away from that game been turned around. Fassel wasn't great, great is Landry/Walsh/Shula etc. but he was pretty decent IMO.

 

Coughlin facts: He did one season, his second where he did a good job, his subsequent trip to the championship game was a disasterous loss at home to the Titans, with his roster being the most expensive in football that year. Coughlin's last 3 seasons in Jax, all losing ones.

I am still waiting to see a replay on that holding call on Keith Hamilton. We get one of Dilfer's gifts for a touchdown (every third game he was averaging a runback interception for a TD), and mysteriously Ed Hockulee's bastards call holding on a Defensive Tackle who chucks a running back within the five yards allowed. The Ravens old fuck owner had never won a SB, so he was getting the sympathy vote that year.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

Having Fassel serve as an offensive consultant sounds like a good idea to me. HuffHole could not run a H.S. offense. Kind of ironic Billick uses this whole friendship thing to psych out Fassell in the SuperBowl...then he throws him under a truck as a scapegoat for all that ails the Ravens. With friends like him.....

[boohyah]

I am still waiting to see a replay on that holding call on Keith Hamilton. We get one of Dilfer's gifts for a touchdown (every third game he was averaging a runback interception for a TD), and mysteriously Ed Hockulee's bastards call holding on a Defensive Tackle who chucks a running back within the five yards allowed. The Ravens old fuck owner had never won a SB, so he was getting the sympathy vote that year.

 

 

I have the game on tape and it's a bullshit call trust me.

 

However, even though it would have changed the game, the chances of us winning that superbowl were slim to none. You have to give it to the Ravens D, they were insane and we simply couldn't move the ball on them. Nobody would have beaten them that year.