I'm already over it.

[Zelmo]

People are really overrating what a dangerous throw it was. Cruz was open. Just because there are defenders in the vicinity doesn't make one not open. Plays like Stokley smoking Sehorn in the SB and leaving him off the screen are rare, tons of completed passes and smart throws happen in fairly tight space. And this wasn't even tight space. Overrated dangerous. (And it very well might have been the best place to go with the ball. Manningham, Nicks and it's hard to tell but I think Ballard too were all more covered than Cruz. Bradshaw was obviously a better option but Eli was already heading to Cruz before Bradshaw released. It's unfortunate, but I don't think anyone's fault.)

 

Manning made a ten times more dangerous throw to Bradshaw on the previous series which Bradshaw dropped.

 

 

 

-Z

[Zelmo]

An NFL QB is a very talented athlete, and they're usually reasonably bright guys too... but nowhere in that skill set is clairvoyance.

 

In other words.... I'm not understanding the expectation that Eli should see into the future to know when his receiver is going to fall down.

 

Last night, Calvin Johnson scored a long TD on a play that Stafford threw the ball long before the WR made his break or turned for the ball. It was a great play, worth watching for us merely as fans of the game, but I bring it up here because had Stafford waited until the receiver made it through his break, like JackStroud and his ilk are suggesting a good QB should ALWAYS do... thats not a TD or even a completion.

 

I remember playing backyard football with my uncles when I was like 8 or 9... whats the first route they teach me? A button hook... go ten steps and turn, the ball will be half-wayto your hands when you look back. Jesus christ people... this isn't even some NFL-level technique that goes over our heads, this is pee wee football, something that everyone who ever played the game at any level has already learned: the QB throws the ball where the receiver is going to be.

 

This ^^^ +10

 

 

 

-Z

[Bigblue25]

I am still pretty pissed off.

[JackStroud]

wer ethe only team in the NFL that makes a habit of this game ending crap

[Storm]

People are really overrating what a dangerous throw it was. Cruz was open. Just because there are defenders in the vicinity doesn't make one not open. Plays like Stokley smoking Sehorn in the SB and leaving him off the screen are rare, tons of completed passes and smart throws happen in fairly tight space. And this wasn't even tight space. Overrated dangerous. (And it very well might have been the best place to go with the ball. Manningham, Nicks and it's hard to tell but I think Ballard too were all more covered than Cruz. Bradshaw was obviously a better option but Eli was already heading to Cruz before Bradshaw released. It's unfortunate, but I don't think anyone's fault.)

 

Manning made a ten times more dangerous throw to Bradshaw on the previous series which Bradshaw dropped.

 

 

 

-Z

 

All of those options were more covered than a quadruple-covered wide receiver? I find that extremely hard to believe. Count 4 defensive lineman into the equation, that's 8 of 11 players. That leaves single coverage on most of those guys.

[Treehugger]

All of those options were more covered than a quadruple-covered wide receiver? I find that extremely hard to believe. Count 4 defensive lineman into the equation, that's 8 of 11 players. That leaves single coverage on most of those guys.

Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the whole point of the bunch formation. I think too much is being made of it being a "timing play". Eli was leading Cruz, yes, but his route was only one of five reads. I can understand him wanting to get he ball out fast though, given the OLine's play that day.

 

I'm totally over-analysing this play but fuck it, what else is there to discuss before Sunday?

[Allstarjim]

All of those options were more covered than a quadruple-covered wide receiver? I find that extremely hard to believe. Count 4 defensive lineman into the equation, that's 8 of 11 players. That leaves single coverage on most of those guys.

 

 

Link - NFL.com videos

 

Storm, 2:15 mark on the video is the play. I just looked at it about 10 times to ascertain the positioning of the Seattle defense. They basically were playing a combination zone/man coverage, most of the back 7 backpedaled and was playing the goalline. They were just trying to keep everything in front of them.

 

Hakeem Nicks was doubled, and it looks like, on the video, that was Eli's first read. He quickly got off Nicks because they had a guy over the top of him and a guy underneath.

 

Ballard took the seam to the goalline. He was blanketed, there was nowhere to put the ball to Ballard.

 

Manningham was key to the play. He was the outside receiver in a tight formation, but he ran a slant towards the middle of the field. His job is to draw coverage out of that area, which he did. The coverage on Manningham was very tight.

 

Cruz and Bradshaw were the only two places to go with the ball. Cruz looked like Eli's next read. Eli sees Manningham draw his defender to the the middle. Eli also sees that Cruz beats his man when he initially begins to make his cut, and there is a hole in the zone Cruz is going to (a hole made by Manningham's route). The DB covering Cruz was positioned to his outside, so Cruz had perfect positioning to make the play. There was a safety over the top of Cruz playing the goalline. This is the guy that comes up and lays a lick on Cruz, basically crushing any chance Cruz had of tipping that ball back to himself. The player that had coverage on Ballard also came up and was there, he may have been the one that tipped it the second time, hard to tell. But Cruz was not double or triple covered. He was single covered and he had his man beat. He just needed to keep his feet through his cut and the ball is on the money. No, it's not going to score, but the Seahawks had dropped 7 guys into coverage, and most of those guys dropped back to the goalline, with the responsibility to react on a play in front of them. That is what they did.

 

Bradshaw was the final receiver and he was wide open. Eli COULD'VE seen most of the defense lined up to the left of the formation, and I'm pretty sure he saw Nicks doubled. This could've told Eli that Bradshaw would be wide open. But Cruz was the next read, and he was open. I have no problem with that read. Eli's looking downfield and he'll go to Bradshaw in a checkdown only if nobody downfield is open. Eli makes his read and immediately makes his decision. No time for what if's or thinking about it, he's a pro QB on a field with pro athletes that are ready to lay a hurt on him or jump a route if the ball isn't on time. There was nothing wrong with the throw, nothing wrong with the read.

 

You can criticize the play design, because the spacing of the receivers, to me, was an issue. I would've had Ballard run to the back of the endzone, not the goalline... that would've drawn his man farther away from the play underneath. But nevertheless, Cruz was single covered. He slipped, and that's why the play wasn't executed properly. The ball was coming out. Cruz has to make that play. Shit happens, like I said, it never should've come to that, but it did.

 

Also, saying there was 4 defensive lineman in the area is ridiculous. They were rushing the passer and out of the play, and would've been out of the play had Cruz caught it. There was a guy on Manningham, a guy on Ballard, a guy on Cruz, and a safety over the top. Shit, if you look at the pre-snap defensive alignment, you can see 5 guys at the LOS, with the 5th guy, on the right side of the formation, he backs up and takes the underneath coverage on Nicks. The Mike 'backer is 5 yards off the LOS, too. There's a DB on the bottom of the screen taking outside coverage (this is the player who took Cruz. EVERYONE ELSE IS AT THE GOALLINE OR DEEPER. That's 4 defenders at the goalline. Only 5 upfront... and a 6th "man in the box", being the Mike, lined up at around the 5. If you want to criticize Eli, criticize him for not checking to a running play there, because it was open. Again, I invite you to look at the video.

 

The Seahawks left the underneath open, and that's where Eli went with it. As I said before, it's just a fluke play. If Cruz makes his break cleanly, he's got a completion and he's probably down at the 4 yard line. He would've caught it at the six, in stride had he made the cut. Instead, he's reaching in front of him and behind him at the 5, tipping it up in the air for the defenders, who were at the goalline when he makes his cut, who are breaking on him as they see Eli going in his direction. How anyone can say that throw or decision was bad... well, they just have to look at it more. It was the proper read and decision. Players don't play under the microscope we put everything in after the fact. They make decisions in milliseconds and that decision by Eli was the right one under the circumstances, and he executed properly. Cruz didn't. Therefore, the result of the play was on the guy that mis-executed. That's Cruz. So much attention on this one play. But not on the safety the Seahawks scored. Not on the earlier Cruz fumble. Not on the busted coverage where Baldwin scores the TD, and not on the plays that allowed the Seahawks to march down the field all day, starting with the very first possession. It's frustrating to continue to talk about this one play when we were losing at the time because of a lot of mistakes and bad game planning and preparation.

[JMFP]

Allstar......great breakdown.

[Steitzenhaus]

Yeah we are all beating this to death. The bottom line is the Giants allowed a bad team that is arguably the worst road team in the league to travel 3000 miles across the country and completely outplay them in every facet of the game. The fact that the Giants even had the opportunity to win with the way they played just reiterates how bad Seattle is. Its one game and hopefully this team can regroup and bounce back but the problems we saw on Sunday were there against the Cardinals too.

[Zelmo]

Link - NFL.com videos

 

Storm, 2:15 mark on the video is the play. I just looked at it about 10 times to ascertain the positioning of the Seattle defense. They basically were playing a combination zone/man coverage, most of the back 7 backpedaled and was playing the goalline. They were just trying to keep everything in front of them.

 

Hakeem Nicks was doubled, and it looks like, on the video, that was Eli's first read. He quickly got off Nicks because they had a guy over the top of him and a guy underneath.

 

Ballard took the seam to the goalline. He was blanketed, there was nowhere to put the ball to Ballard.

 

Manningham was key to the play. He was the outside receiver in a tight formation, but he ran a slant towards the middle of the field. His job is to draw coverage out of that area, which he did. The coverage on Manningham was very tight.

 

Cruz and Bradshaw were the only two places to go with the ball. Cruz looked like Eli's next read. Eli sees Manningham draw his defender to the the middle. Eli also sees that Cruz beats his man when he initially begins to make his cut, and there is a hole in the zone Cruz is going to (a hole made by Manningham's route). The DB covering Cruz was positioned to his outside, so Cruz had perfect positioning to make the play. There was a safety over the top of Cruz playing the goalline. This is the guy that comes up and lays a lick on Cruz, basically crushing any chance Cruz had of tipping that ball back to himself. The player that had coverage on Ballard also came up and was there, he may have been the one that tipped it the second time, hard to tell. But Cruz was not double or triple covered. He was single covered and he had his man beat. He just needed to keep his feet through his cut and the ball is on the money. No, it's not going to score, but the Seahawks had dropped 7 guys into coverage, and most of those guys dropped back to the goalline, with the responsibility to react on a play in front of them. That is what they did.

 

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

 

Thank you Jim

 

This whole Cruz was triple teamed or even double teamed is just ridiculous...he was OPEN

 

 

 

-Z

[Zelmo]

Maybe this is overkill, and beating a dead horse, but this is a pic from the moment AFTER Cruz gets up from his stumble

 

 

 

Yeah big crowd there Eli is throwing into (And remember Eli isn't throwing this ball from thirty yards away where defenders have tons of time time to break on the ball, he's throwing it from 10 yards away)

 

How anyone can call Cruz triple covered when not a single defender is in position to make a play on a ball thrown to him is nuts.

 

If all that it takes for a receiver to be considered "covered" is for there to be a defender somewhere who's in position to make a play on the ball should it get tipped up in the air then I daresay that few receivers are ever ever open. Covered means a defender is in position to challenge the pass attempt. Covered means there's no reasonable angle or lane by which to get the ball to the receiver. Cruz clearly isn't covered, not even by a stretch of the word. And if you'll look at the play as Jim did, you'll see that Hicks, Manningham, and Ballard all were covered.

 

 

 

 

-Z

[Nas]

Thanks Jim... My only gripe was against the play itself... I had this really bad feeling seeing them lined up before the snap... and with our luck it seems ball get tipped up and intercepted... I mean god fucking forbids we have an incompletion

[CrazedDogs]

I wouldn't run ANY timing plays in the red zone.

 

The red zone is not the time to get fancy. Gilbride fails to grasp this concept.

 

There's nothing 'fancy' about a timing route... a fade, a slant, almost any route you're going to run down in close quarters is a timing route.

 

If there's any complaint I have there, its that the Giants had three time outs, they could have tried a running play. Even if it doesn't work, then you've got the D thinking run action down on the goal line and you've killed some of the extra time on the clock. Play fake, TD, game over.

[CrazedDogs]

Maybe this is overkill, and beating a dead horse, but this is a pic from the moment AFTER Cruz gets up from his stumble

 

Yeah big crowd there Eli is throwing into (And remember Eli isn't throwing this ball from thirty yards away where defenders have tons of time time to break on the ball, he's throwing it from 10 yards away)

 

Game. Set. Match.

 

Cruz was open.

[Treehugger]

Maybe this is overkill, and beating a dead horse, but this is a pic from the moment AFTER Cruz gets up from his stumble

 

 

 

Yeah big crowd there Eli is throwing into (And remember Eli isn't throwing this ball from thirty yards away where defenders have tons of time time to break on the ball, he's throwing it from 10 yards away)

 

How anyone can call Cruz triple covered when not a single defender is in position to make a play on a ball thrown to him is nuts.

 

If all that it takes for a receiver to be considered "covered" is for there to be a defender somewhere who's in position to make a play on the ball should it get tipped up in the air then I daresay that few receivers are ever ever open. Covered means a defender is in position to challenge the pass attempt. Covered means there's no reasonable angle or lane by which to get the ball to the receiver. Cruz clearly isn't covered, not even by a stretch of the word. And if you'll look at the play as Jim did, you'll see that Hicks, Manningham, and Ballard all were covered.

 

 

 

 

-Z

That would be great if Eli was throwing to Cruz's position. Go mark the spot where the ball goes to and tell me again how wide open the play is.

 

Again, if the hits Cruz squarely we're not even having this conversation, and Cruz is up out of the slip so quickly I believe Eli would have overthown him regardless. In the open field it would have been the correct throw, but with defenders converging in front of him he should not have lead him so much.

[BIGBLUE01]

People are really overrating what a dangerous throw it was. Cruz was open. Just because there are defenders in the vicinity doesn't make one not open. Plays like Stokley smoking Sehorn in the SB and leaving him off the screen are rare, tons of completed passes and smart throws happen in fairly tight space. And this wasn't even tight space. Overrated dangerous. (And it very well might have been the best place to go with the ball. Manningham, Nicks and it's hard to tell but I think Ballard too were all more covered than Cruz. Bradshaw was obviously a better option but Eli was already heading to Cruz before Bradshaw released. It's unfortunate, but I don't think anyone's fault.)

 

Manning made a ten times more dangerous throw to Bradshaw on the previous series which Bradshaw dropped.

 

 

 

-Z

 

This is exactly right. Timing is used on most poass plays. I dont understand whats meant by not using timing plays in the red zone. The main thing done wrong in this situation, was not choosing a better target. But it still wasnt the worst option. If Cruz doesnt slip, we may be looking at 4-1.

[Zelmo]

Go mark the spot where the ball goes to and tell me again how wide open the play is.

 

Here ya go Tree:

 

 

 

In this pic you see the ball already passing his body and in his left hand....the ball is already PAST it's target and there's still no defender near making a play on the ball...

 

The "triple-coverage" that everyone is talking about is one defender diving behind the play and two defenders 5 yards away.

 

There was nothing wrong with Eli's decision to throw to Cruz at all.

 

 

 

-Z

[Treehugger]

Here ya go Tree:

 

 

 

In this pic you see the ball already passing his body and in his left hand....the ball is already PAST it's target and there's still no defender near making a play on the ball...

 

The "triple-coverage" that everyone is talking about is one defender diving behind the play and two defenders 5 yards away.

 

There was nothing wrong with Eli's decision to throw to Cruz at all.

 

 

 

-Z

I've never had a problem with him throwing to Cruz (though I believe Manningham was the better option), I have a problem with where he placed the ball. Even if he hadn't slipped (which he recovers from very fast) he's pitching it straight at the oncoming defender rather than placing it where only Cruz can catch it.

[Nas]

I've never had a problem with him throwing to Cruz, I have a problem with where he placed the ball.

 

I said yesterday I wished Eli would have thrown it at Cruz's gut.. but I understand he was trying to lead Cruz... just a freak play..

[Zelmo]

Even if he hadn't slipped (which he recovers from very fast) he's pitching it straight at the oncoming defender rather than placing it where only Cruz can catch it.

 

Cruz did recover from the slip very fast, but that doesn't mean the ball would have been out front had Cruz not slipped. No matter how fast he recovers he still lost at the very least one stride and more accurately probably two...add two short strides to Cruz's position and that ball is dead on the money

 

 

 

-Z

[Allstarjim]

Thank you Joe and Z... and Z, great screen captures... really demonstrates how fast things happen in the NFL. You see all that space with Cruz and by the time the ball is tipped, you have defenders right there.

 

Looking at the play the way I did, though, I think Eli should've audibled to a Bradshaw run play. I think they were going to try and get 6 right away by going to Nicks or maybe Ballard, but those options weren't there. Still, showing that front, I want to see Bradshaw. Hindsight 50-50. When it works, you are a genius, when it doesn't, you're the goat.

 

They need to get Mannigham and Nicks more involved in the offense. Nicks got a heavy workload last week but this week they needed to get the ball to him more.

 

So... Buffalo! Job 1 is stop Fred Jackson.

[JackStroud]

Here ya go Tree:

 

 

 

In this pic you see the ball already passing his body and in his left hand....the ball is already PAST it's target and there's still no defender near making a play on the ball...

 

The "triple-coverage" that everyone is talking about is one defender diving behind the play and two defenders 5 yards away.

 

There was nothing wrong with Eli's decision to throw to Cruz at all.

 

 

 

-Z

 

 

this picture absolutelty shows he led him too much................Cruz does not get his hand on it, it is even an easier pick 6...........it was going right into that guys belly............even if Cruz does not lose his footing.....there is no reason to lead him that much.............DANGEROUS

[Allstarjim]

this picture absolutelty shows he led him too much................Cruz does not get his hand on it, it is even an easier pick 6...........it was going right into that guys belly............even if Cruz does not lose his footing.....there is no reason to lead him that much.............DANGEROUS

 

 

Eli said on the Michael Kay show that the result of the play was due to Cruz slipping. Eli said that, and he's not known for showing up his players. He was otherwise complimentary of Cruz. Again, if Cruz doesn't slip, that ball is inbetween the 8 and the 0. The only reason he's reaching like that is because he didn't get to the spot he was supposed to be at... Eli's making the throw as Cruz begins his break.... if he doesn't lead him, and Cruz doesn't slip, then Cruz is reaching BEHIND HIM, towards the defender, and that's your easy INT. You lead receivers in the NFL. Shit, you lead receivers in Pee Wee.

[Allstarjim]

Eli made a couple of questionable throws in that game... that one was not one of them.

 

Jack, accept the fact that Cruz is not the complete receiver right now that you want him to be. He is learning, he's a young player, and young players make mistakes. It doesn't mean he sucks... I like Cruz. But his play is not consistent right now. He needs to eliminate the couple of mistakes he's making per game. Just small things. He's making big plays, which is good, but winning and losing in the NFL is a thin line... and 1 mistake can be the difference.

 

I hope Eli spreads the ball around a little more. I think last week he relied on Cruz a little too much. For all intents and purposes, you have to think of Cruz as a rookie receiver. Get the ball to the veterans and mix the rooks in.

[Zelmo]

this picture absolutelty shows he led him too much................Cruz does not get his hand on it, it is even an easier pick 6...........it was going right into that guys belly............even if Cruz does not lose his footing.....there is no reason to lead him that much.............DANGEROUS

 

Even if Cruz doesn't lose his footing??? Jack if Cruz doesn't lose his footing that ball hits Cruz as Jim said, right between the 8 and the 0 and we have a completion to about the 3 or 4 and no one would have ever thought twice about the play except to post Crrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuzzz in the game thread.

 

Cruz doesn't slip, that ball hits dead on the money....and I guarantee no one is on here afterward saying "You know that completion to Cruz at the 4? That was a real dangerous throw by Eli." No one would be saying that, because it wasn't.

 

 

 

-Z