Will the 2011 Giants be Better or Worse than the 2010 Giants

[BleedinBlue]

I found the article on Eli in the archives of Ultimate Blue. Here it is:

 

Leveraging Eli

by Paul Burke | 25 August 2011

 

In Glenn’s recap of the ambulance pre-season game versus da’ Bears he made a very astute observation about Eli.

 

The slashing and bruising 20 yard TD was set up by Eli.

 

Glenn: “Before the snap, Eli realized the Bears were going to blitz. He changed the play call at the line of scrimmage. Great awareness by Eli.”

 

This leads us to ask why the coaching staff does not leverage a talent that Eli clearly has demonstrated in the past. Why are they not being more efficient between plays to ensure that Eli’s time at the line of scrimmage is maximized to breakdown a defense? It also leads us to question why, in 8 years with Eli in the same offensive system with Gilbride (QBs coach, then coordinator 2007-present), do they struggle to generate any rhythm early or even on a consistent basis? We witness on a consistent basis teams like the Eagles, Colts, Patriots and Saints right out of the gate develop a rhythm in preseason games.

 

There are two aspects of the no huddle offense or even running a quick formation that benefit Eli in his performance as a QB. First, he develops a better rhythm with his receivers and passing in general. Second, it also leverages his ability to break down a defense at the line of scrimmage and utilize audibles.

 

In 2008 William Sullivan of NJ.com discussed the success of the offense using a quick formation in a comeback win by the Giants versus the Bengals:

 

The Giants used the no-huddle offense to take the lead late in the fourth quarter. When the Bengals tied the game to send it to overtime, the Giants could have gone back to varying formations and personnel to confuse Cincinnati's defense. Instead, they stuck with the shotgun formation and either three or four receivers for 10 of their 12 offensive snaps in overtime.

 

It was basically the hurry-up offense without the hurry up, and it allowed the Giants to build off the momentum of their final drive in regulation. It was a wise decision because, if they had gone back to switching personnel from play to play, perhaps the sluggish offense they displayed for three quarters would have returned.

 

In December of 2007 Vacchiano, after a come from behind win versus da’ Bears, queried Coughlin on why they do not utilize the no-huddle offense more often, given their success. Coughlin’s response was "we are reluctant to just go to that because of the flexibility, the utilization of personnel and the mix of run and play-action passes." Let’s just ignore the comment about the use of “play-action passes” but his comments about “lack of flexibility” in “utilization of personnel” is telling. A rhythm is harder to generate with a constant substitution of personnel. Last season we heard the mantra about it’s on the players to execute. Perhaps, this is part of the reason they struggled to execute. Yet also how many times have we seen delay of games penalties and timeouts wasted due to the chaotic substitution patterns?

 

Sean Couch of the Bleacher Report back in 2009 discussed the idea of giving Eli some freedom in calling his own plays. This would of course be an “unconventional approach” for Coughlin. This " 'lightning in a bottle' that separates the very good coach from the great one and Coughlin, whose nickname is "Colonel," could take a strategic lesson from a great coach—Bill Belichick.” Belichik “handed the play-calling reins to his franchise quarterback, Tom Brady, in the 2004 AFC championship game on a first-possession, 4th-and-1 call at their own 44 yard line against a pumped up Colts team.” Couch also believes it would “help him overcome his propensity to start slow.” The knock on Eli “is his out-of-rhythm accuracy during the first 30 minutes of games.” But “his performance improves dramatically when he is forced to make decisions on the fly, often with his team down and in their quick no-huddle offense.” Why not have Eli give input in strategy and game planning given his genetic ties and the Hall of Fame success of his brother?

[Mr. P]

can someone who keeps saying most of TT's tackles came on the running back post a link or some sort of proof to that claim?

[Allstarjim]

Bleedin', I don't think I'd go quite as far as you did as far as linking the INT's to staying with Gilbride's calls, because in years past he hasn't had as many INTs as he did last year. But I do not understand why they won't go to the hurry-up more often. I agree with you, Eli does well in those situations, but they rarely use it. It's a changeup sometimes for the opposing defense and if you like the matchup with the defensive package they have on the field, why not keep them out there and go hurry-up? I think you're right... I think Gilbride likes to have complete control. But I also think Eli doesn't shy away from changing the play at the line or adjusting the play as he sees fit. We've seen him do that plenty.

[BIGBLUE01]

12-4, Giants win east,

 

1. Because I said.

 

2. Refer to #1

 

3. Refer to #1

 

4. Refer to #1

 

5. Refer to #1

 

 

 

[Treehugger]

People keep telling me that Thomas has 10 INTs the last few years...thats true..he's had 5 per year.

 

He gets thrown at ALOT. There were more than a few games where you didn't hear the guy who Corey Webster was covering name.

 

He makes all these tackles, INTs because he gets thrown at. Period.

OMG ur not a reel Gints fan lol

[Treehugger]

Normally you would be right, but almost half T2's tackles were on the running back. You've got to take out the tackles on people other than his coverage responsibility to make any sort of judgment about the value of a cornerback's number of tackles. The real number is more like 50 or 60 tackles.

 

T2 isn't great in coverage, plus he plays opposite one of the very best cover corners, so he does get targeted a lot (over 120 times in 2010).... I think Ross was always better in coverage, but more prone to mental errors and not as willing to stick his nose in to make a stop.

 

The big drop off from losing T2 isn't on the outside, because Ross can handle it if he's healthy... its going to be against slot receivers or whoever the nickle will be covering.

How many of those tackles on RBs were passes out of the backfield? They weren't all running plays.

[RandolphScott]

OMG ur not a reel Gints fan lol

 

Yeah, I mean..I like Thomas..but he isn't in Webster's class at all. In fact, he's not even near it.

[Nas]

Why is there such a big deal out T2's performance? The way I see it he was a starter over Ross for a reason. The guy was a solid CB. We're lucky in the sense we have good back ups.. well a 1st rounder who hasn't lived up to his draft position... but who's solid nonetheless... a guy with a ton of talent but unmotivated .. maybe the contract year changes that... and who's injury prone because he lacks the discipline to realize if you keep pulling the same fucking muscle, then maybe you ought to focus on it but stretching it regularly.. it's always a pulled groin or a pulled quad or hammi.. the 3 out of 4 regular injuries that can be avoided with regular stretching and conditioning.. the 4th being Pectorial muscles.

[BleedinBlue]

Well....I'll jump into the fray on this one.

 

No knock on Ross as I can't remember the last time he played when he was 100% healthy. Seems like he was a decent CB before the injuries started piling up, but to be honest, I can't remember.

 

What I do remember over the past couple of years is that Thomas had a knack for the game and when a defensive play broke down because some other player screwed up, Thomas would be the one to clean up the mess. It seems he was everywhere on plays in the backfield.

 

I think the loss of TT is huge and I don't think Ross will have that same nose for the game to sniff out broken plays the way TT did and salvage potential huge plays. TT was everywhere the ball was, regardless of who got out of position. And I'm sure that has a lot to do with his huge number of tackles.

[CrazedDogs]

can someone who keeps saying most of TT's tackles came on the running back post a link or some sort of proof to that claim?

 

Personally, I don't think I said 'most'... but many of them, sure. And already posted this link in another thread. This makes twice.

 

2009 Run Tackles by Cornerbacks

 

I've seen 2010 numbers too, T2 was at the top again, but Google isn't doing me any favors today.

[Nas]

Well....I'll jump into the fray on this one.

 

No knock on Ross as I can't remember the last time he played when he was 100% healthy. Seems like he was a decent CB before the injuries started piling up, but to be honest, I can't remember.

 

What I do remember over the past couple of years is that Thomas had a knack for the game and when a defensive play broke down because some other player screwed up, Thomas would be the one to clean up the mess. It seems he was everywhere on plays in the backfield.

 

I think the loss of TT is huge and I don't think Ross will have that same nose for the game to sniff out broken plays the way TT did and salvage potential huge plays. TT was everywhere the ball was, regardless of who got out of position. And I'm sure that has a lot to do with his huge number of tackles.

 

You kindda solidified my point. TT was the starter over Ross for a reason. Ross never lived up to his draft position. What ticks me off about Ross is he has the talent.. and it's not like he has a full time job somewhere else. Being in top shape to do his job..is his job. I'm surprised no one is taking a page of Toomer's playbook. When he saw age was creeping up on him and injuries became more frequent.. he went a head and slimmed down, changed his workout routine to incorporate yoga/stretching (I know this because he told me this personally).

[CrazedDogs]

How many of those tackles on RBs were passes out of the backfield? They weren't all running plays.

 

On the link I posted earlier its for tackles on the running back on running plays.

 

Since I couldn't find a link for 2010 numbers, I went through the play-by-play and counted... 35 tackles on running plays for T2 in 2010. Add in tackles on screen passes... 7 more.

 

And as for tackles on guys who aren't his coverage responsibility... impossible to determine from the play by play, but there are at least another ten or fifteen plays on tight ends that were probably, on most of those snaps, officially being covered by a LB.

 

Its not like he's a Deion Sanders type corner back, with 30 tackles all season, almost all of them for running his coverage responsibility out of bounds. He's putting his hat on the ball in situations that most corners would find themselves cropped off the TV screen. Thats what makes it seem like he's a shoddy tackler... he gets many more chances to look bad. But no, if he's not the best tackling corner in the NFL, then he's certainly one of the most willing.

[JackStroud]

The other teams in our division have the same schedule

 

The difference is there's is harder

 

They also have to play THE GIANTS

[Nas]

The other teams in our division have the same schedule

 

The difference is there's is harder

 

They also have to play THE GIANTS

 

Hey Jack, if you still have that cream n have no use for it, I'd like to try it

[Treehugger]

But no, if he's not the best tackling corner in the NFL, then he's certainly one of the most willing.

I agree completely. I praised his ability to get to the ball, it's the finish I'm concerned with. I HATE seeing players throw their bodies at the opponent's legs rather than getting a shoulder on them and wrapping up.

[BleedinBlue]

On the link I posted earlier its for tackles on the running back on running plays.

 

Since I couldn't find a link for 2010 numbers, I went through the play-by-play and counted... 35 tackles on running plays for T2 in 2010. Add in tackles on screen passes... 7 more.

 

And as for tackles on guys who aren't his coverage responsibility... impossible to determine from the play by play, but there are at least another ten or fifteen plays on tight ends that were probably, on most of those snaps, officially being covered by a LB.

 

Its not like he's a Deion Sanders type corner back, with 30 tackles all season, almost all of them for running his coverage responsibility out of bounds. He's putting his hat on the ball in situations that most corners would find themselves cropped off the TV screen. Thats what makes it seem like he's a shoddy tackler... he gets many more chances to look bad. But no, if he's not the best tackling corner in the NFL, then he's certainly one of the most willing.

Great point. It seems TT had the ability to drop off coverage the split second he realized his man or zone was out of play and made a bee-line to where ever the ball was going. He seemed to come out of nowhere over and over and be in on tackles that wasn't even part of his coverage. If every defensive player played like that, we'd be golden. Most players....especially corners, just let up once they realize their man isn't in play.

[fishgutmartyr]

It's never a good sign when you have a CB leading the team in tackles. Not that it reflects poorly on the CB, but it does on the front seven: in particular, the LBs.

 

And you REALLY don't want your CB leading all cornerbacks in tackles on running plays. A safety, OK. But the job of the cornerback, by it's very nature, puts him behind the line of scrimmage, and for him to get that many tackles means that too many running plays are getting significant positive yardage.

 

You expect your linemen to take on blockers. But that stat tells me that our linebackers weren't able to break free of their blockers, and too much pressure was being put on our backfield.

 

I'm also unsure why Webster being as good as he is reflects so badly on Thomas. Webster has become one of the better CBs in the league, so it's no shame to be thrown against with him as your bookend. Being the lesser of two evils in the eyes of an offensive coordinator is a fact of life, not a condemnation of a player. Nobody is going to stop throwing to wide receivers against Philly, and they supposedly have better CBs than anyone else.

 

I think Ross can handle it. Maybe not as well as Thomas, but between the improvements at safety and at LB; the fact he is in a contract year; and that he hasn't exactly had to take a rigorous pounding the last few seasons, he should be fine. I think the bigger hit is the downgrade at 3rd CB, not second.

[Treehugger]

It's never a good sign when you have a CB leading the team in tackles. Not that it reflects poorly on the CB, but it does on the front seven: in particular, the LBs.

 

And you REALLY don't want your CB leading all cornerbacks in tackles on running plays. A safety, OK. But the job of the cornerback, by it's very nature, puts him behind the line of scrimmage, and for him to get that many tackles means that too many running plays are getting significant positive yardage.

 

You expect your linemen to take on blockers. But that stat tells me that our linebackers weren't able to break free of their blockers, and too much pressure was being put on our backfield.

Do you think it's a product of the 4-2-5 defense?

[fishgutmartyr]

Do you think it's a product of the 4-2-5 defense?

Nope. I think poor linebacking is the cause of the 4-2-5 defense. I would much rather have a good pass-defending LB on the field than a safety, myself. Even still, in the 4-2-5, it is my understanding that it's the safeties that are responsible for the run defense.

[Nas]

Nope. I think poor linebacking is the cause of the 4-2-5 defense. I would much rather have a good pass-defending LB on the field than a safety, myself. Even still, in the 4-2-5, it is my understanding that it's the safeties that are responsible for the run defense.

 

So that's a yes then

[Allstarjim]

On the link I posted earlier its for tackles on the running back on running plays.

 

Since I couldn't find a link for 2010 numbers, I went through the play-by-play and counted... 35 tackles on running plays for T2 in 2010. Add in tackles on screen passes... 7 more.

 

And as for tackles on guys who aren't his coverage responsibility... impossible to determine from the play by play, but there are at least another ten or fifteen plays on tight ends that were probably, on most of those snaps, officially being covered by a LB.

 

Its not like he's a Deion Sanders type corner back, with 30 tackles all season, almost all of them for running his coverage responsibility out of bounds. He's putting his hat on the ball in situations that most corners would find themselves cropped off the TV screen. Thats what makes it seem like he's a shoddy tackler... he gets many more chances to look bad. But no, if he's not the best tackling corner in the NFL, then he's certainly one of the most willing.

 

Spot on Fish. I will say this about the linebackers, though, I expect Jonathan Goff to lead this team in tackles this year. I think he makes a big step forward.

[CrazedDogs]

It's never a good sign when you have a CB leading the team in tackles. Not that it reflects poorly on the CB, but it does on the front seven: in particular, the LBs.

 

Good point, I agree.

 

And you REALLY don't want your CB leading all cornerbacks in tackles on running plays. A safety, OK. But the job of the cornerback, by it's very nature, puts him behind the line of scrimmage, and for him to get that many tackles means that too many running plays are getting significant positive yardage.

 

Ah, but one thing that leaped out at me when reading through the play-by-play is that about half of those run play tackles were for no gain or a loss.

 

Here's my theory on that... offenses like to run at Osi, and I think with that in mind Fewell had T2 playing in a very shallow zone or maybe just keying on the run.

 

Maybe.... just maybe.... T2 really isn't really a good tackler or especially instinctive or aggressive, and his insane number of tackles is merely a byproduct of the system. Maybe a little of both. I don't know, just throwing shit out there. Thats the Giants fan hopeful optimist take on the T2 injury.

 

I'm also unsure why Webster being as good as he is reflects so badly on Thomas. Webster has become one of the better CBs in the league, so it's no shame to be thrown against with him as your bookend. Being the lesser of two evils in the eyes of an offensive coordinator is a fact of life, not a condemnation of a player. Nobody is going to stop throwing to wide receivers against Philly, and they supposedly have better CBs than anyone else.

 

I think Ross can handle it. Maybe not as well as Thomas, but between the improvements at safety and at LB; the fact he is in a contract year; and that he hasn't exactly had to take a rigorous pounding the last few seasons, he should be fine. I think the bigger hit is the downgrade at 3rd CB, not second.

 

If you look at the targets towards Nmanda, Revis, and Samuel, and then the targets towards the guy playing opposite those elite cover corners.... the split looks very similar to the target split for Webster and Thomas. And Thomas will never be confused with an elite cover corner, so its no wonder teams throw at him.

[fishgutmartyr]

So that's a yes then

No, I'm saying that the 4-2-5 didn't work the way it should have.

[fishgutmartyr]

...

3) Speaking specials, they looked downright good last week. Competent would be an upgrade.

...

sigh.