So Gettleman.

[BlueInCanada]

All it took was a competent coaching staff and his team he built finally came together.

I think he gets another couple years at the helm as GM atleast now and he should. Almost all of his FA signings and draft picks are playing a role now, fuck even the Williams trade is looking like gold and hopefully they can somehow keep him.

Guess we get to see how he handles the big contract negotiations as well as what happens to Barkley and if he can keep guys lie Graham and Garrett longer than a year.

[CrazedDogs]

Only way to keep Graham will be to go deep enough in the playoffs that the hiring teams have to move on without him. He has future head coach written all over him.

And I think Gettleman hasn't quite been vindicated yet. But at least now we can all see his vision.

[BlueInCanada]

17 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

Only way to keep Graham will be to go deep enough in the playoffs that the hiring teams have to move on without him. He has future head coach written all over him.

And I think Gettleman hasn't quite been vindicated yet. But at least now we can all see his vision.

If the team finishes strong and even misses the playoffs he gets another year and probably two unless there is some sort of epic collapse next year and we end up going 1-15 but I'm sure everyone is out the door at that point.

Edit: and yes I should say I agree that he isn't vindicated but atleast we finally have the coaches to do soemthibg with the roster he built.

[Sephiroth]

The jury is still out on Gettleman, but I always liked his vision... stop the run, run the ball, win in the trenches.  I just had a LOT of questions about his talent evaluation.  A few things will decide his legacy 

1.  The Beckham trade.  Right now, I don't think there's many people who would want Vernon and Beckham over Peppers, Ximines, Zeitler, and Dex Lawrence.  Pretty clear win for Gettleman. 

2.  Daniel Jones.  He had three games with no turnovers (four if you count this week!) but the jury is still out on him.  Lets see how the rest of the year goes, and then next year if he remains the starter.  He has looked good recently but arguably looked better last year.

3.  The Leonard Williams trade.  Again, looks good now.  I have a feeling if he ends up on a long-term deal with us most of Giants nation will be pretty happy with this in hindsight, so long as the deal isn't completely absurd.  I had really wanted Josh Jones with that third which brings us to... 

4. Rebuilding the O-line.  Promising right now but again a small sample size.  Lets not forget this was the same line that six weeks ago was worse than last year's line.  However, Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Zeitler, and Peart have all looked pretty good in recent weeks, borderline dominant (Peart in particular has made me forget about Jones).  Even Hernandez has looked good. 

5. The Joe Judge hire.  Early, but sure looks like good one right now. 

 

You could argue Barkley belongs in this discussion as well. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out.  If you asked me today, I think Getty deserves another year. 

[Sephiroth]

So now what do you guys say?  I still think I'd give him one more year, unless Judge really wants "his guy" in here. 

[BlueInCanada]

It's up in the air.

He finally had a coaching staff making the most of his picks.

He stays another year and has a free agency and draft like the previous one and we are in good shape.

He leaves and a new GM comes in my might want to clean house to clear cap space or even being in some coaches of his own.

At the same time a new GM might manage the cap better plus Judge will probably have some say on who it is so Judge will get some input in player signings etc which is a good thing IMO.

Either way it's a big decision for the Giants to make that will have a massive impact on the next few years and if we are contenders or bottom feeders again. 

Going to be a fun off season.

[Mr. P]

I say keep him on if he wants to stay on.  I think when he was hired he was told to try to make another run with Eli, or he was hired because he said he could, I don’t know, I was down for another run with Eli too.

So I think when that was the objective he managed and drafted one way, it seems starting at the Jones draft the mission changed to rebuild. So now he is managing and drafting that way.   
 

Like a tale of two cities. 

[mastershake]

Problem #1 with this team when he first came here was the Offensive Line. Problem #1 with this team in 2020 is still the Offensive Line.

The OL is actually worse now than it was back in 2018, with more sacks given up now than then (47 in 2018, 43 in 2019, and 50 in 2020). The offense in general was has gotten worse as well (23.1  pts per game vs 21.3 in 2019 and 17.5 in 2020).

Four out of the six wins this season were against the lousy NFL east. 

In my view, he should be fired.

[UK-Giantsfan]

This team was 2 or 3 Evan Engram induced turnovers / drops away from winning the division with a 9-7 record.

DG did a great job in both free agency and had a decent draft 

Judge and Graham are excellent ( Garrett not bad )

I say give them all another year or 2 if we can ( including Gettleman ) ..... and see where it takes us !!!

Continuity means a hell of a lot in the NFL if you want to be successful

[mastershake]

33 minutes ago, UK-Giantsfan said:

This team was 2 or 3 Evan Engram induced turnovers / drops away from winning the division with a 9-7 record.

DG did a great job in both free agency and had a decent draft 

Judge and Graham are excellent ( Garrett not bad )

I say give them all another year or 2 if we can ( including Gettleman ) ..... and see where it takes us !!!

Continuity means a hell of a lot in the NFL if you want to be successful

Eh, while I hate Engram...I think this is overblown. At best, he cost us 1 win. Also the Football Team handed us a victory, plus when 4 out of 6 of your victories are in this abysmal NFC east, that's nothing to write home about.

DG did a great job in both free agency 

 

Did he do a great job on the offensive line, when he could have signed Bryan Bulaga and Graham Glasgow, but instead we go?

Cam Fleming $3.7mm cap hit.

Spencer Pulley $2.8mm

Levine Toilolo $3.3mm

Kyler Fackrell $4.6mm

Nate Ebner $2.0mm

Cody Core $2.0mm

Dion Lewis $1.5mm

 

That's $20mm in precious cap space on these scrubs.

 

Bulaga and Glasgow get you two more wins easily. 8-8 at least, and you're in the playoffs. 

That's why DG should be fired.

[BlueInCanada]

47 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Eh, while I hate Engram...I think this is overblown. At best, he cost us 1 win. Also the Football Team handed us a victory, plus when 4 out of 6 of your victories are in this abysmal NFC east, that's nothing to write home about.

DG did a great job in both free agency 

 

Did he do a great job on the offensive line, when he could have signed Bryan Bulaga and Graham Glasgow, but instead we go?

Cam Fleming $3.7mm cap hit.

Spencer Pulley $2.8mm

Levine Toilolo $3.3mm

Kyler Fackrell $4.6mm

Nate Ebner $2.0mm

Cody Core $2.0mm

Dion Lewis $1.5mm

 

That's $20mm in precious cap space on these scrubs.

 

Bulaga and Glasgow get you two more wins easily. 8-8 at least, and you're in the playoffs. 

That's why DG should be fired.

To be fair we would be in cap hell next year with those contracts.

And probably still 6-10 because those guys you listed would be replaced by practice squad players on league minimum.

This coming offseason we will have maybe 25 million in cap space if they cut Zeitler outright.

Bulaga alone is carrying a cap hit of 14 million next year.

I still think they would of gotten one of them but probably at the expense of a guy like Martinez or Bradberry.

Once again I'm not saying he did a good job, his cap management is something to be improved upon.

 

[BlueInCanada]

Also I don't see problem #1 being the Oline.

If anything with how the rookies played and the fact the Lemioix and Gates both stepped up are showing that if anything the Oline is on the upside of it all.

I'd like to see what the Oline looks like with a full year of non Columbo coaching and a real running back not fucking Gallman or Morris.

Thomas, Lemioux, Gates, FA and Peart isn't a bad thing to be looking at. 

Better than Solder, Hernandez, Hiphpphilloo, Zeitler and Remmers lol 

 

[mastershake]

6 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

To be fair we would be in cap hell next year with those contracts.

And probably still 6-10 because those guys you listed would be replaced by practice squad players on league minimum.

This coming offseason we will have maybe 25 million in cap space if they cut Zeitler outright.

Bulaga alone is carrying a cap hit of 14 million next year.

I still think they would of gotten one of them but probably at the expense of a guy like Martinez or Bradberry.

Once again I'm not saying he did a good job, his cap management is something to be improved upon.

 

No we wouldn't. We should have signed them, cut Solder, plus never re-signed Engram, and that would easily pay for it in 2021.

[BlueInCanada]

Just now, mastershake said:

No we wouldn't. We should have signed them, cut Solder, plus never re-signed Engram, and that would easily pay for it in 2021.

We couldn't cut Solder because of the opt out year, even if he didn't it would of cost this team 17 million in dead cap. 

Engrams contract isn't even guaranteed yet it isn't even factored into next year's cap until March.

Next year the cap is going down it's not increasing its going down by about 10 million.

Bulaga and Glasgow in 2021 are over 26 million in combined cap space. 

We would have to cut Zeitler right now just to accomidate both of them.

And we would still be over the cap.

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, BlueInCanada said:

Also I don't see problem #1 being the Oline.

If anything with how the rookies played and the fact the Lemioix and Gates both stepped up are showing that if anything the Oline is on the upside of it all.

I'd like to see what the Oline looks like with a full year of non Columbo coaching and a real running back not fucking Gallman or Morris.

Thomas, Lemioux, Gates, FA and Peart isn't a bad thing to be looking at. 

Better than Solder, Hernandez, Hiphpphilloo, Zeitler and Remmers lol 

 

Also I don't see problem #1 being the Oline.

What's the main driver of this offense being one of the worst in the league this year, plus worse than it was 2 years ago?

So if OL is not the top problem, if we just had a stud WR and stud RB (Barkley), we'd be magically better? See 2018 for that one.

Better than Solder, Hernandez, Hiphpphilloo, Zeitler and Remmers lol 

Every metric on this OL has them being worse than in 2018, and the offense is worse in general.

I'd like to see what the Oline looks like with a full year of non Columbo coaching and a real running back not fucking Gallman or Morris.

It would be a disaster and sign of gross incompetence to go into 2021 with the current OL, without signing at least one prominent FA OL and/or drafting OL high. Zeitler and Solder alone have $14 and $16mm cap hits respectively.

Thomas, Lemioux, Gates, FA and Peart isn't a bad thing to be looking at. 

If we're going into the season relying on Lemioux, Gates, and Peart as 3 of 5 starters on this team, then the season is setup to fail, and we're in for another terrible offense.

[mastershake]

5 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

We couldn't cut Solder because of the opt out year, even if he didn't it would of cost this team 17 million in dead cap. 

Engrams contract isn't even guaranteed yet it isn't even factored into next year's cap until March.

Next year the cap is going down it's not increasing its going down by about 10 million.

Bulaga and Glasgow in 2021 are over 26 million in combined cap space. 

We would have to cut Zeitler right now just to accomidate both of them.

And we would still be over the cap.

Yes, we should have cut him lose in last year's offseason, before the opt out. The cap savings in 2021 would have been $14mm had DG done that, on that move alone. Of course he didn't, Solder opted out, and now any cap savings from cutting him in 2021 is only $6mm. In other words, Dave Gettleman, through this one move alone, spent $10.5mm of our cap space in 2021 on NOTHING. lol.

There are plenty of other moves I've mentioned, such as not signing Levine Toilolo and Spencer Pulley. That's another $6mm in cap savings on those two guys alone.

[BlueInCanada]

1 minute ago, mastershake said:

Also I don't see problem #1 being the Oline.

What's the main driver of this offense being one of the worst in the league this year, plus worse than it was 2 years ago?

So if OL is not the top problem, if we just had a stud WR and stud RB (Barkley), we'd be magically better? See 2018 for that one.

Better than Solder, Hernandez, Hiphpphilloo, Zeitler and Remmers lol 

Every metric on this OL has them being worse than in 2018, and the offense is worse in general.

I'd like to see what the Oline looks like with a full year of non Columbo coaching and a real running back not fucking Gallman or Morris.

It would be a disaster and sign of gross incompetence to go into 2021 with the current OL, without signing at least one prominent FA OL and/or drafting OL high. Zeitler and Solder alone have $14 and $16mm cap hits respectively.

Thomas, Lemioux, Gates, FA and Peart isn't a bad thing to be looking at. 

If we're going into the season relying on Lemioux, Gates, and Peart as 3 of 5 starters on this team, then the season is setup to fail, and we're in for another terrible offense.

Jones regression, Barkley being hurt, no WR threat outside of Shepard don't help

If anything I put a lot of this year on the WRs along with the Oline and other factors as I've mentioned.

How many times did we see Jones go through his progression multiple times just to end up taking a sack or having to scramble?

I'm not saying the Oline isn't an issue we still need a guard and RT which I hope is Peart.

But I'd rather see what this team looks like with a healthy Barkley and a real WR threat on the outside.

 

[mastershake]

4 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Jones regression, Barkley being hurt, no WR threat outside of Shepard don't help

If anything I put a lot of this year on the WRs along with the Oline and other factors as I've mentioned.

How many times did we see Jones go through his progression multiple times just to end up taking a sack or having to scramble?

I'm not saying the Oline isn't an issue we still need a guard and RT which I hope is Peart.

But I'd rather see what this team looks like with a healthy Barkley and a real WR threat on the outside.

 

1) Do you think Jones's regression had anything to do with him playing behind an offensive line that was WORSE this year by every metric versus in 2019?

2) The giants record WITH Barkley is worse than the Giant record without him.

3) The giants WR's this year were essentially the same as last year.

4) If you want to argue that their receivers are not that talented, whose fault is that? I realize this is besides the OL point, but that then comes back to DG.

I'm sorry, but if we're going into next season with only replacing Zeitler on the OL, and doing nothing else to improve the OL, this team is in for a 6-10 or 7-9 season at best, and bottom tier offense.

 

[BlueInCanada]

1 minute ago, mastershake said:

Yes, we should have cut him lose in last year's offseason, before the opt out. The cap savings in 2021 would have been $14mm had DG done that, on that move alone.

There are plenty of other moves I've mentioned, such as not signing Levine Toilolo and Spencer Pulley. That's another $6mm in cap savings.

There was no "before the opt out" in 2020 unless you mean you wanted to cut him on 2019 when he could ha e a dead cap of 25+ million this past offseason and who would we of signed then? Lol

 

 

[mastershake]

4 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

There was no "before the opt out" in 2020 unless you mean you wanted to cut him on 2019 when he could ha e a dead cap of 25+ million this past offseason and who would we of signed then? Lol

 

 

Yes there was. Solder didn't opt out until the summer, right before camp at the end of July. They were counting on him being on the roster, lol. That's on DG.

Even given the opt out and current situation, your cap savings is as follows for 2021: $6mm on Solder, $12mm on Zeitler, $2.7mm on Pulley, and $3.1mm on Toilolo. There, I found you cap space to cover Bulaga and Glasgow.

I didn't even factor in Cody Core and David Mayo as well, lol. Another $4.6mm.

[BlueInCanada]

Just now, mastershake said:

1) Do you think Jones's regression had anything to do with him playing behind an offensive line that was WORSE this year by every metric versus in 2019?

2) The giants record WITH Barkley is worse than the Giant record without him.

3) The giants WR's this year were essentially the same as last year.

4) If you want to argue that their receivers are not that talented, whose fault is that? I realize this is besides the OL point, but that then comes back to DG.

 

1)Jones has had time this year and still looked horrific.

2) lol yes Barkley does nothing but make the team worse 

3) And they are as you said "worse in we've metric way possible"

4) I still think you believe I'm against firing DG lol 

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, BlueInCanada said:

1)Jones has had time this year and still looked horrific.

2) lol yes Barkley does nothing but make the team worse 

3) And they are as you said "worse in we've metric way possible"

4) I still think you believe I'm against firing DG lol 

1) He's had far too many times where the OL simply looked horrendous...as evidenced by the OL stats.

2) Having Barkley back helps, but it doesn't make this team a 7 or 8 plus win team on it's own.

3) Last year, who were our three WR's? Who were they this year?

4) No, but I don't agree with these points.

[BlueInCanada]

11 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Yes there was. Solder didn't opt out until the summer, right before camp at the end of July. They were counting on him being on the roster, lol. That's on DG.

Even saying that the opt out was hindsight, your cap savings is as follows for 2021: $6mm on Solder, $12mm on Zeitler, $2.7mm on Pulley, and $3.1mm on Toilolo. There, I found you cap space to cover Bulaga and Glasgow.

You realize that the 6m savings only applies in 2021 is Solder played which he didn't? Lol 

His guaranteed money is still dead cap how hard is it to understand? 

He sat out his contract got pushed forward a year.

We would of had an out on 2021 if he played only having to pay him 6 million as you said.

But he sat out, so it got pushed to 2022.

Even if we cut him before he sat out the Giants would of had to pay him over 17illion this year alone.

He wouldn't of been on the books for 2021 but neither would guys like Bradberry or Martinez lol 

Solder saved us money this past offseason by sitting out but fucked us over because he's still carrying full dead cap space for another year.

 

 

[BlueInCanada]

1 minute ago, mastershake said:

1) He's had far too many times where the OL simply looked horrendous...as evidenced by the OL stats.

2) Having Barkley back helps, but it doesn't make this team a 7 or 8 plus win team on it's own.

3) Last year, who were our three WR's? Who were they this year?

4) No, but I don't agree with these points.

1) I'm not saying that haven't been bad you assume it for some reason lol but it's been improved over the last half of the season.

2) yes Barkley would help and would of taken pressure of Jones a d the Oline as evident by years past 

3) So your arguing that a group of players that got worse across the board is somehow better than what their stats show? Odd 

4) Good that's what I love about this place. Oline isn't the strongest position but not the worst IMO WRs are more of a concern IMO. We get a healthy Barkley and a better WR threat and suddenly Jones has someone to throw to or take pressure off him and the Oline.

 

[mastershake]

5 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

You realize that the 6m savings only applies in 2021 is Solder aged which he didn't? Lol 

His guaranteed money is still dead cap how hard is it to understand? 

He sat out his contract got pushed forward a year.

We would of had an out on 2021 if he played only having to pay him 6 million as you said.

But he sat out, so it got pushed to 2022.

Even if we cut him before he sat out the Giants would of had to pay him over 17illion this year alone.

He wouldn't of been on the books for 2021 but neither would guys like Bradberry or Martinez lol 

Solder saved us money this past offseason by sitting out but fucked us over because he's still carrying full dead cap space for another year.

 

 

Here are his figures:

Year 3: $16.5mm cap hit. $10.5mm in dead cap, meaning $6mm in cap savings if he's cut. 

Year 4: $18.0mm cap hit. $4mm in dead cap, meaning $14mm in cap savings if he's cut.

Year 3 WOULD have been 2020, and Year 4 2021 if Dave Gettleman had cut Solder BEFORE he opted out.

 

At this point, the cap savings if we cut him now is Year 3...only $6mm.