Um, joemorrisforprez...

[Nas]

You can't take away the TEAM win. A win is a win. But to elevate this to anything more is just silly.

 

I had the Cowboys as an 8-8, 9-7 type team at the beginning of the year. The most disappointing thing about their loss to the Patriots is not that they lost to the Patriots, is that they lost to an average team.

 

That's what the 2011 Patriots are. Average. By year's end, they may be a joke.

 

The Patriots are smoke and mirrors and their coach and QB deserve tons of credit for what they are doing.

 

Average to below average defense (actually statistically ranked dead last in the NFL).

 

No running game.

 

No deep threat.

 

Nothing.

 

At best, the Patriots are one and done in the playoffs.

 

Take it for what it's worth. One more step in the ladder that the Giants need to make a run.

 

But if you are labeling anything or anyone elite at this point you are fooling yourself.

 

And you're smarter than that.

 

The rest of the season will prove me right.

 

The Patriots were 5-2 when we played them. There's a reason for that. And even if we concede your point... if the Giants take 2 more wins out of the 9ers, Eagles, Saints, GB stretch, will you admit they're on par with those teams?

[BadEgg]

The Patriots were 5-2 when we played them. There's a reason for that. And even if we concede your point... if the Giants take 2 more wins out of the 9ers, Eagles, Saints, GB stretch, will you admit they're on par with those teams?

 

Sure...I will admit they are on par with those teams. But if they make the playoffs and are obliterated by Detriot, will the Giants get a special trophy for being on par with those teams and will Eli get the "on par" MVP award?

[Nas]

Sure...I will admit they are on par with those teams. But if they make the playoffs and are obliterated by Detriot, will the Giants get a special trophy for being on par with those teams and will Eli get the "on par" MVP award?

 

If.. then.. else..

 

this is the NFL.. no teams "suck".. Case in point.. the Eagles have a terrible record but they manhandled your team. What I see is you will never give Eli credit.. and the only knock against him is.. he's not Rodgers. Stats say he's a top 5 QB in this league and is the best when it matters most... he's 4th Qtr rating.. is #1.. that's better than Rodgers.. and to think he's missing his top WR... and his top RB... and with a reshuffled OL.. come on now..

[ksm7]

You can't take away the TEAM win. A win is a win. But to elevate this to anything more is just silly.

 

I had the Cowboys as an 8-8, 9-7 type team at the beginning of the year. The most disappointing thing about their loss to the Patriots is not that they lost to the Patriots, is that they lost to an average team.

 

That's what the 2011 Patriots are. Average. By year's end, they may be a joke.

 

The Patriots are smoke and mirrors and their coach and QB deserve tons of credit for what they are doing.

 

Average to below average defense (actually statistically ranked dead last in the NFL).

 

No running game.

 

No deep threat.

 

Nothing.

 

At best, the Patriots are one and done in the playoffs.

 

Take it for what it's worth. One more step in the ladder that the Giants need to make a run.

 

But if you are labeling anything or anyone elite at this point you are fooling yourself.

 

And you're smarter than that.

 

The rest of the season will prove me right.

 

the dog is pretty sure the patriots run as a force has ended. no team can have a defense that bad and be a serious contender in the end. they could very well end up 9-7 or less by the year's end. this season is wide open in the dog's opinion, and aside from GB, who is beatable and has some weakness, there is no clear cut favorite...

[ksm7]

If.. then.. else..

 

this is the NFL.. no teams "suck".. Case in point.. the Eagles have a terrible record but they manhandled your team. What I see is you will never give Eli credit.. and the only knock against him is.. he's not Rodgers. Stats say he's a top 5 QB in this league and is the best when it matters most... he's 4th Qtr rating.. is #1.. that's better than Rodgers.. and to think he's missing his top WR... and his top RB... and with a reshuffled OL.. come on now..

 

stats say it, but tell only part of the picture...and the dog believes that is true for any player, and not just little eli. look at the defensive rankings, that can't be ignored. if manning can continue to take care of the ball, and maintain this level throughout the year, then he has taken a huge step towards getting out of the critical microscope. this hasn't been the case for his career, so we'll see. you can't blame skeptics if history demonstrates consistent inconsistency. as the dog said, time will tell, but 8 games against marginal to bad defenses doesn't erase what all the critics (not just the dog) have said over time.

[BadEgg]

If.. then.. else..

 

this is the NFL.. no teams "suck".. Case in point.. the Eagles have a terrible record but they manhandled your team. What I see is you will never give Eli credit.. and the only knock against him is.. he's not Rodgers. Stats say he's a top 5 QB in this league and is the best when it matters most... he's 4th Qtr rating.. is #1.. that's better than Rodgers.. and to think he's missing his top WR... and his top RB... and with a reshuffled OL.. come on now..

 

The reshuffled OL has nothing to do with it because they still block pretty damn well.

 

Nicks is hurt but he was not having a no # 1 WR type year anyway. The Giants WR are pretty damn good, with or without Nicks.

 

Ballard is doing pretty good as well.

 

Truthfully, you put Brady on the Giants last Sunday and give him the Patriots defense to pick apart and he runs up 350 yards and 40 points. Manning is not Brady. Not now.

 

IMO, the Giants are extremely well coached. And they have a done a good job putting talent around Eli.

 

And you have to give them credit for being 6-2.

 

But to label last Sunday and any of the Giants accomplishments thus far anything more than solid team play is absurd. Especially with 8 games to go.

 

And by the way, that was a great pick Brady Jr threw in the endzone. Elite decision making.

 

If Tom Brady had any weapons to work with the game would have been over at that moment.

[fishgutmartyr]

Yeah, Brady would have done much better with that Giants team Sunday, he wouldn't have thrown a pick. Oh, wait...

[BIGBLUE01]

Hmmmm...the "critics"...

 

The same critics Giants fans ridicule every year for picking their team and their QB to be average...

 

The same critics that jump the gun on almost every judgment...partially because it is their job...

 

Let's see what these critics are saying in Dec and Jan when, some numbnuts safety on a Patriots team that is not even in the playoffs is not around to obliterate a covered WR at the 1 yardline to whom, our "elite" QB admits that he was not even looking to hook up with -- our "elite" QB was actually throwing the ball away...

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of people "revising" their comments by year's end. I don't think I will be one of them.

 

The house of cards will fall. And I'm not talking about Arizona.

 

You know whats hilarious?? Is that ALL cowshit fans were bragging about almost beating the Pats. They were VERY good when the cowshits played em, not so much when we did........

 

 

Shut the fuck up egg and crawl back in youre hole. The sooner you deal with having a choke artist for a QB and no brains in your head the better off for you.

[BadEgg]

You know whats hilarious?? Is that ALL cowshit fans were bragging about almost beating the Pats. They were VERY good when the cowshits played em, not so much when we did........

 

 

Shut the fuck up egg and crawl back in youre hole. The sooner you deal with having a choke artist for a QB and no brains in your head the better off for you.

 

Who brags about almost beating the Pats?

 

You know I think you make stuff up.

 

I stand by what I said. I would love to say that the Cowboys almost beat an "elite" -- there's that word again -- an "elite" Pat's team. Truth is, Pats aren't that good. They weren't that good when the Cowboys played them and they still aren't that good. Hell, I'm not impressed by how the Cowboys played against a crappy Seahawks team last weekend. Great teams don't let the Seahawks hang around. Period.

 

Romo is not a choker. But I'll save that argument for another day and a more worthy adversary.

[BIGBLUE01]

Who brags about almost beating the Pats?

 

You know I think you make stuff up.

 

I stand by what I said. I would love to say that the Cowboys almost beat an "elite" -- there's that word again -- an "elite" Pat's team. Truth is, Pats aren't that good. They weren't that good when the Cowboys played them and they still aren't that good. Hell, I'm not impressed by how the Cowboys played against a crappy Seahawks team last weekend. Great teams don't let the Seahawks hang around. Period.

 

Romo is not a choker. But I'll save that argument for another day and a more worthy adversary.

 

Every cowboy fan I meet did, youre one of them, so I lumped you into that group.

 

The Pats have Brady, thats the main thing. He was able to beat the cowshits, not the Giants. Theyre a good team. Not as strong as yrs past, but very good.

 

Oh, and I dont know how many times you have to be told this.........Just because you put a lil smiley face that says "owned", doesnt mean you actually owned anyone. See what being in your mommies basement w/ no friends does to you????

 

 

 

Now......for the REAL usage of this............................

[Allstarjim]

Ridiculous arguments... one point specifically seems to be centered around the team defense stat.

 

This is one of the worst stats, it measures yards, not points. Both Green Bay and the Patriots are near the bottom in the NFL in this stat.

 

A defense can dominate a game and give up a lot of yards. Green Bay gets big leads and will then go into a conservative defense. If a team piles up a bunch of yards against a prevent it doesn't say anything. Both Green Bay and New England are middle of the pack in scoring defense. You can use stats to say just about anything you want.

 

New England doesn't have a great defense, sure, but they aren't terrible. Eli had pressure all day on Sunday, and a lot of it had to do with Wilfork, who is a top 3 DT in the NFL. Wilfork was unblockable when they tried to use one guy on him, and he was even beating doubles sometimes. And when the Pats blitzed, it made it even harder for Eli because many times there was a free man. Pats also have two good cover corners in Arrington and McCourtey.

 

Eli delivered in a tough environment. Fact, the Pats had not lost on their home field in a regular season game in something like 4 years.

 

I would say this, if Eli had the Pats Offensive line on Sunday, ELI would've thrown for 350 yards and 4 TD's. Tom Brady would not have fared better because Eli arguably faced more pressure in that game than Tom, and Eli protected the ball better. Eli threw a lot of passes away because there was nothing there.

 

You say that the Giants have done a good job putting talent around Eli? Wrong. ELI is making these receivers look good. It's ELI that is teaching these players how to read the corners and safeties and what to do, where he wants them to make a play. Guys like Victor Cruz on, say, a team like the Bucs or Chiefs, would be camp fodder. He wouldn't make it. Eli is making Victor a star.

 

This is Eli's virtuoso performance, this season. It's a season in which he finally has had some continuity with some receivers, where they know what they're doing and what he wants them to do, and he has some relative health in that receiving corps. He really missed Nicks on Sunday but he still delivered. And he is doing this in spite of an Offensive Line that has underperformed on the year. When you watch Eli play, you see he has complete control of the offense, and nearly always makes the right read, and when he has time, he is throwing perfect passes, putting the ball only where his guy can make a play. That throw to Ballard in the seam is exactly what I'm talking about. It was a phenomenal catch by Ballard, but it was the precise spot where that ball needed to be to keep it from being deflected. And the fade he threw to Manningham was an absolute dime he dropped in there.

 

And any team led by Tom Brady is a good team. Tom could suit up for the Cardinals and they would be a 10 or 11 win team. To say New England isn't a quality opponent is just stupid.

 

The Giants are one Victor Cruz slip away from being 7-1. They aren't dominating teams defensively, and they aren't running the ball great. They are winning because Eli is commanding this offense and willing them to win. That is the truth.

[BIGBLUE01]

Ridiculous arguments... one point specifically seems to be centered around the team defense stat.

 

This is one of the worst stats, it measures yards, not points. Both Green Bay and the Patriots are near the bottom in the NFL in this stat.

 

A defense can dominate a game and give up a lot of yards. Green Bay gets big leads and will then go into a conservative defense. If a team piles up a bunch of yards against a prevent it doesn't say anything. Both Green Bay and New England are middle of the pack in scoring defense. You can use stats to say just about anything you want.

 

New England doesn't have a great defense, sure, but they aren't terrible. Eli had pressure all day on Sunday, and a lot of it had to do with Wilfork, who is a top 3 DT in the NFL. Wilfork was unblockable when they tried to use one guy on him, and he was even beating doubles sometimes. And when the Pats blitzed, it made it even harder for Eli because many times there was a free man. Pats also have two good cover corners in Arrington and McCourtey.

 

Eli delivered in a tough environment. Fact, the Pats had not lost on their home field in a regular season game in something like 4 years.

 

 

Well put Jim. True as can be.

I would say this, if Eli had the Pats Offensive line on Sunday, ELI would've thrown for 350 yards and 4 TD's. Tom Brady would not have fared better because Eli arguably faced more pressure in that game than Tom, and Eli protected the ball better. Eli threw a lot of passes away because there was nothing there.

 

You say that the Giants have done a good job putting talent around Eli? Wrong. ELI is making these receivers look good. It's ELI that is teaching these players how to read the corners and safeties and what to do, where he wants them to make a play. Guys like Victor Cruz on, say, a team like the Bucs or Chiefs, would be camp fodder. He wouldn't make it. Eli is making Victor a star.

 

This is Eli's virtuoso performance, this season. It's a season in which he finally has had some continuity with some receivers, where they know what they're doing and what he wants them to do, and he has some relative health in that receiving corps. He really missed Nicks on Sunday but he still delivered. And he is doing this in spite of an Offensive Line that has underperformed on the year. When you watch Eli play, you see he has complete control of the offense, and nearly always makes the right read, and when he has time, he is throwing perfect passes, putting the ball only where his guy can make a play. That throw to Ballard in the seam is exactly what I'm talking about. It was a phenomenal catch by Ballard, but it was the precise spot where that ball needed to be to keep it from being deflected. And the fade he threw to Manningham was an absolute dime he dropped in there.

 

And any team led by Tom Brady is a good team. Tom could suit up for the Cardinals and they would be a 10 or 11 win team. To say New England isn't a quality opponent is just stupid.

 

The Giants are one Victor Cruz slip away from being 7-1. They aren't dominating teams defensively, and they aren't running the ball great. They are winning because Eli is commanding this offense and willing them to win. That is the truth.

 

Well put Jim.

[Storm]

This board will never tire of feeding the animals, will it?

 

 

[BIGBLUE01]

This board will never tire of feeding the animals, will it?

 

 

 

Guilty

[ksm7]

Ridiculous arguments... one point specifically seems to be centered around the team defense stat.

 

This is one of the worst stats, it measures yards, not points. Both Green Bay and the Patriots are near the bottom in the NFL in this stat.

 

A defense can dominate a game and give up a lot of yards. Green Bay gets big leads and will then go into a conservative defense. If a team piles up a bunch of yards against a prevent it doesn't say anything. Both Green Bay and New England are middle of the pack in scoring defense. You can use stats to say just about anything you want.

 

New England doesn't have a great defense, sure, but they aren't terrible. Eli had pressure all day on Sunday, and a lot of it had to do with Wilfork, who is a top 3 DT in the NFL. Wilfork was unblockable when they tried to use one guy on him, and he was even beating doubles sometimes. And when the Pats blitzed, it made it even harder for Eli because many times there was a free man. Pats also have two good cover corners in Arrington and McCourtey.

 

Eli delivered in a tough environment. Fact, the Pats had not lost on their home field in a regular season game in something like 4 years.

 

I would say this, if Eli had the Pats Offensive line on Sunday, ELI would've thrown for 350 yards and 4 TD's. Tom Brady would not have fared better because Eli arguably faced more pressure in that game than Tom, and Eli protected the ball better. Eli threw a lot of passes away because there was nothing there.

 

You say that the Giants have done a good job putting talent around Eli? Wrong. ELI is making these receivers look good. It's ELI that is teaching these players how to read the corners and safeties and what to do, where he wants them to make a play. Guys like Victor Cruz on, say, a team like the Bucs or Chiefs, would be camp fodder. He wouldn't make it. Eli is making Victor a star.

 

This is Eli's virtuoso performance, this season. It's a season in which he finally has had some continuity with some receivers, where they know what they're doing and what he wants them to do, and he has some relative health in that receiving corps. He really missed Nicks on Sunday but he still delivered. And he is doing this in spite of an Offensive Line that has underperformed on the year. When you watch Eli play, you see he has complete control of the offense, and nearly always makes the right read, and when he has time, he is throwing perfect passes, putting the ball only where his guy can make a play. That throw to Ballard in the seam is exactly what I'm talking about. It was a phenomenal catch by Ballard, but it was the precise spot where that ball needed to be to keep it from being deflected. And the fade he threw to Manningham was an absolute dime he dropped in there.

 

And any team led by Tom Brady is a good team. Tom could suit up for the Cardinals and they would be a 10 or 11 win team. To say New England isn't a quality opponent is just stupid.

 

The Giants are one Victor Cruz slip away from being 7-1. They aren't dominating teams defensively, and they aren't running the ball great. They are winning because Eli is commanding this offense and willing them to win. That is the truth.

 

 

this, like much of what you wrote (or of what the dog actually was patient enough to read), is as silly as anything said on this board. you know why "allstar" jim? because the giants are a handful, less than 10, plays away from being a 1 win team, that's why. every win with the exception of the rams, which wasn't very impressive anyway, was in doubt in quarter 4. and if not for a play or two in each of those games, the giant record could be the polar opposite of what it is now, against teams with a combined 22-42 record.

 

and please do tell (in 4,234 words or less please doll), how many teams that rank dead last each year in total defense are putting a dominating defense as you put it on the field? that is laughable.

 

little eli has played well. virtuoso? too funny!

[BIGBLUE01]

this, like much of what you wrote (or of what the dog actually was patient enough to read), is as silly as anything said on this board. you know why "allstar" jim? because the giants are a handful, less than 10, plays away from being a 1 win team, that's why. every win with the exception of the rams, which wasn't very impressive anyway, was in doubt in quarter 4. and if not for a play or two in each of those games, the giant record could be the polar opposite of what it is now, against teams with a combined 22-42 record.

 

and please do tell (in 4,234 words or less please doll), how many teams that rank dead last each year in total defense are putting a dominating defense as you put it on the field? that is laughable.

 

little eli has played well. virtuoso? too funny!

 

Whats laughable is your attempt to contradict anything anyone says.

 

 

Records schmecords......you play the schedule given to you. You find a way to win. Period.

[BadEgg]

this, like much of what you wrote (or of what the dog actually was patient enough to read), is as silly as anything said on this board. you know why "allstar" jim? because the giants are a handful, less than 10, plays away from being a 1 win team, that's why. every win with the exception of the rams, which wasn't very impressive anyway, was in doubt in quarter 4. and if not for a play or two in each of those games, the giant record could be the polar opposite of what it is now, against teams with a combined 22-42 record.

 

and please do tell (in 4,234 words or less please doll), how many teams that rank dead last each year in total defense are putting a dominating defense as you put it on the field? that is laughable.

 

little eli has played well. virtuoso? too funny!

 

Without digging up the videos and statistics I seem to remember Victor Cruz making Eli look good a play or two.

 

Granted, he didn't catch the ball with his helmet but...

 

Just sayin...

[Nas]

Just sayin...

 

Dog and Egg.. I will say this..

 

The experts have the Giants ranked in the top 5 teams:

 

Linky

 

And the experts are saying Eli is a top 5 QB

 

linky again

 

Our record and Eli's performance this season both support both arguments.

[BIGBLUE01]

Without digging up the videos and statistics I seem to remember Victor Cruz making Eli look good a play or two.

 

Granted, he didn't catch the ball with his helmet but...

Just sayin...

 

If thats not still being hurt by the fact the Giants took out the the cowshits......I dont know what is.

[Allstarjim]

Without digging up the videos and statistics I seem to remember Victor Cruz making Eli look good a play or two.

 

Granted, he didn't catch the ball with his helmet but...

 

Just sayin...

 

 

Yes, he has made some great plays since Eli has mentored him to know what he's doing out there. I'm not taking anything away from Victor, he's shown great hands, a little wiggle, and pretty good quicks. But some people were saying Steve Smith was irreplaceable and he's on the scout team now with Philly. It seems Eli's play has something to do with what is transpiring with the receivers.

[Nas]

Yes, he has made some great plays since Eli has mentored him to know what he's doing out there. I'm not taking anything away from Victor, he's shown great hands, a little wiggle, and pretty good quicks. But some people were saying Steve Smith was irreplaceable and he's on the scout team now with Philly. It seems Eli's play has something to do with what is transpiring with the receivers.

 

Definitely.. given where Smith and Boss are now.. I say Eli is making the team better. The knock against him is he's not a loud mouth.

[BadEgg]

Yes, he has made some great plays since Eli has mentored him to know what he's doing out there. I'm not taking anything away from Victor, he's shown great hands, a little wiggle, and pretty good quicks. But some people were saying Steve Smith was irreplaceable and he's on the scout team now with Philly. It seems Eli's play has something to do with what is transpiring with the receivers.

 

Yes, when Victor Cruz made a 1-handed bobbling catch between 2 Seattle DB's after his "elite" QB wisely threw into double coverage, it was Eli "willing" and "mentoring" him into the endzone.

 

Same could be said when he turned a short pass into a long TD against the Eagles. Or when he wrested the ball away from Eagles defenders for the last score.

 

As to Steve Smith, when he was 100% healthy it could be argued that he was irreplaceable. In fact, what made Smith great was that he almost always found a way to get open. A credit to Smith and the offensive coordinator...hmmm...

 

Speaking of which, could the fact that the Giants WR are having so much success be attributed to the "mentoring" of the coaching staff?

 

Nah...It's all Eli.

[Balloonknot]

Dog and Egg.. I will say this..

 

The experts have the Giants ranked in the top 5 teams:

 

Linky

 

And the experts are saying Eli is a top 5 QB

 

linky again

 

Our record and Eli's performance this season both support both arguments.

 

Nas not to flatten your argument against Dog and Peabrain but the same Experts also picked the Eagles to be a dominating team in the NFC.

[Nas]

Nas not to flatten your argument against Dog and Peabrain but the same Experts also picked the Eagles to be a dominating team in the NFC.

 

True.. and we all thought the Eagles would be unstoppable too.. at least some of us did. The difference here is those rankings are based on solid stats not projections.

[BadEgg]

True.. and we all thought the Eagles would be unstoppable too.. at least some of us did. The difference here is those rankings are based on solid stats not projections.

 

These "expert" opinions are based on past performances against 8 opponents who may have 8 of the first 10 picks in next year's draft when all is said and done. That's the problem with throwing around the word "elite" in week 8, especially with a team and QB that has by enlarge failed to live up to the hype on the back end of the season.