My opinion on

[parlintm]

Regarding the malcontents:

 

There is a HUGE difference between bringing in a rookie with character issues as opposed to a proven veteran. While neither is ideal, the veteran has shown that they can play in this league and at the minimum have a good enough work ethic to be productive. The concern with the rookies that have had issues in the past is that there is the fear that they will NEVER materialize their potential. They have not shown that they can overcome these issues and be a successful NFL player, wheras players like Lavar and Plax have already displayed their productivity over multiple seasons.

 

That said, I don't think we will have too many issues this season. Almost all of the team has played for TC for at least a year and knows what is expected of them. I think the FA's will get up to speed very quickly. I don't think Lavar will be a problem AT ALL this season. His contract necessitates him getting maximum playing time and I don't think he will jeopardize that in any way. The problems that he had in DC were with the owner and the rigid system run by Williams. We run a very different defense and he will be given many opportunities to make plays. AP would not have been as adament about signing Pierce if he was worried that he wouldnt fit in or that he would be a problem.

 

I expect Plax and TC to resolve their issues before the season beginis (if they haven't already done so). I think Plax is ultra-competitive and he just wasn't good at dealing with some of Eli's rookie mistakes. It got to him and he let it show. This is a new season and I'm sure that everyone's put it past them.

 

This team as SB aspirations and IMO, our team has the perfect balance of youthful talent and great veterans. There are quality leaders on both sides of the ball. I think once the season gets under way the team should bond and I expect us to have great chemistry. The issues of players working out in Miami is being made too big of an issue, IMO, and that given the team philosophy regarding character, I think we should have very few player issues unrelated to the football field this year. I'm perfectly fine with a strategy of passing on players such as Lendale, Justice and Wroten since it pays its dividends in the long run.

[NeMesiS]

Regarding the malcontents:

 

There is a HUGE difference between bringing in a rookie with character issues as opposed to a proven veteran. While neither is ideal, the veteran has shown that they can play in this league and at the minimum have a good enough work ethic to be productive. The concern with the rookies that have had issues in the past is that there is the fear that they will NEVER materialize their potential. They have not shown that they can overcome these issues and be a successful NFL player, wheras players like Lavar and Plax have already displayed their productivity over multiple seasons.

 

That said, I don't think we will have too many issues this season. Almost all of the team has played for TC for at least a year and knows what is expected of them. I think the FA's will get up to speed very quickly. I don't think Lavar will be a problem AT ALL this season. His contract necessitates him getting maximum playing time and I don't think he will jeopardize that in any way. The problems that he had in DC were with the owner and the rigid system run by Williams. We run a very different defense and he will be given many opportunities to make plays. AP would not have been as adament about signing Pierce if he was worried that he wouldnt fit in or that he would be a problem.

 

I expect Plax and TC to resolve their issues before the season beginis (if they haven't already done so). I think Plax is ultra-competitive and he just wasn't good at dealing with some of Eli's rookie mistakes. It got to him and he let it show. This is a new season and I'm sure that everyone's put it past them.

 

This team as SB aspirations and IMO, our team has the perfect balance of youthful talent and great veterans. There are quality leaders on both sides of the ball. I think once the season gets under way the team should bond and I expect us to have great chemistry. The issues of players working out in Miami is being made too big of an issue, IMO, and that given the team philosophy regarding character, I think we should have very few player issues unrelated to the football field this year. I'm perfectly fine with a strategy of passing on players such as Lendale, Justice and Wroten since it pays its dividends in the long run.

 

 

Excellent post.

[boohyah]

Regarding the malcontents:

 

There is a HUGE difference between bringing in a rookie with character issues as opposed to a proven veteran. While neither is ideal, the veteran has shown that they can play in this league and at the minimum have a good enough work ethic to be productive. The concern with the rookies that have had issues in the past is that there is the fear that they will NEVER materialize their potential. They have not shown that they can overcome these issues and be a successful NFL player, wheras players like Lavar and Plax have already displayed their productivity over multiple seasons.

 

That said, I don't think we will have too many issues this season. Almost all of the team has played for TC for at least a year and knows what is expected of them. I think the FA's will get up to speed very quickly. I don't think Lavar will be a problem AT ALL this season. His contract necessitates him getting maximum playing time and I don't think he will jeopardize that in any way. The problems that he had in DC were with the owner and the rigid system run by Williams. We run a very different defense and he will be given many opportunities to make plays. AP would not have been as adament about signing Pierce if he was worried that he wouldnt fit in or that he would be a problem.

 

I expect Plax and TC to resolve their issues before the season beginis (if they haven't already done so). I think Plax is ultra-competitive and he just wasn't good at dealing with some of Eli's rookie mistakes. It got to him and he let it show. This is a new season and I'm sure that everyone's put it past them.

 

This team as SB aspirations and IMO, our team has the perfect balance of youthful talent and great veterans. There are quality leaders on both sides of the ball. I think once the season gets under way the team should bond and I expect us to have great chemistry. The issues of players working out in Miami is being made too big of an issue, IMO, and that given the team philosophy regarding character, I think we should have very few player issues unrelated to the football field this year. I'm perfectly fine with a strategy of passing on players such as Lendale, Justice and Wroten since it pays its dividends in the long run.

 

The "rigid" system in DC is what made them one of the top defenses in the league and got Gregg Williams such a huge contract so he wouldn't leave for another job. If you're thinking that Lavar's problem are solely Williams and Snyder's problems then you're wearing blinkers. They paid him a lot of money to play in that defense and they had to bench him several times. And there were a lot of Giant fans here that said they didn't want him before we got him, myself included, and I stand true to that. I hope I am proven wrong because that way the Giants will be the beneficiary and that's all that matters. But let's not kid oursleves here, lavar is no saint.

 

As for Plaxico, let's ease off on Ultra competitive because that's simply not the case. fact is Plaxico is a good wideout, but he takes plays off and he shown (very obvious) that he gives up on plays. And the issue of them working out in Miami is a problem, Eli needs to get familar with them in camp and to see Shockey and Plaxico gesturing their disgust at Manning is wrong. Timing is everything, just ask Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning.

 

 

There is a HUGE difference between bringing in a rookie with character issues as opposed to a proven veteran.

 

Christian Peter is an example of a guy who was an asshole in college, Giants gave him a chance anyway and he turned into a model citizen and player. So what you're saying is not always true.

[Money]

The "rigid" system in DC is what made them one of the top defenses in the league and got Gregg Williams such a huge contract so he wouldn't leave for another job. If you're thinking that Lavar's problem are solely Williams and Snyder's problems then you're wearing blinkers. They paid him a lot of money to play in that defense and they had to bench him several times. And there were a lot of Giant fans here that said they didn't want him before we got him, myself included, and I stand true to that. I hope I am proven wrong because that way the Giants will be the beneficiary and that's all that matters. But let's not kid oursleves here, lavar is no saint.

 

LaVar's "malcontent" problems were exclusively with Snyder, who evidently screwed him with the contract he signed (LaVar's agents also deserve blame here, as they seemingly did not read the contract). The problems between Arrington and Snyder are well-documented. LaVar never had any problems with Williams; Williams thought that Warrick Holdman was the better player for the first 6 games of 2005. LaVar was only benched once, not multiple times.

 

As for Plaxico, let's ease off on Ultra competitive because that's simply not the case. fact is Plaxico is a good wideout, but he takes plays off and he shown (very obvious) that he gives up on plays. And the issue of them working out in Miami is a problem, Eli needs to get familar with them in camp and to see Shockey and Plaxico gesturing their disgust at Manning is wrong. Timing is everything, just ask Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning.

 

This is a huge misconception. Eli spends countless hours with his receivers during mini-camp, training camp, preseason, and regular season practices. Anyone who suggests that receivers who do not attend voluntary workouts (which consist of weight-lifting and conditioning, not passing drills) are in some way jeopardizing their rapport with the QB are simply wrong. Again, Shockey and Plaxico are not missing valuable opportunities to develop their 'timing' with the QB; they are opting to exercise in an alternate location.

 

There is a HUGE difference between bringing in a rookie with character issues as opposed to a proven veteran.

 

Christian Peter is an example of a guy who was an asshole in college, Giants gave him a chance anyway and he turned into a model citizen and player. So what you're saying is not always true.

 

The Giants are notorious for giving prospects in-depth psychological examinations and passing on guys who they think won't be model citizens or hard workers. That doesn't prohobit them from taking chances on guys who may have turned their lives around (i.e. Kerry Collins, Christian Peter) or suffer from a bad reputation (Plaxico Burress).

[gateb]

I think the conception that this move was solely for extending Strahan's carer is actually somewhat false. This move could actually be for extending Strahan's career. Perhaps now Kiwi could become a part time third and long pass rusher and would spell Strahan. So that means while his stats may go down, his productivity and impact on the field may be longer lasting through the next few years.

[boohyah]

I think the conception that this move was solely for extending Strahan's carer is actually somewhat false. This move could actually be for extending Strahan's career. Perhaps now Kiwi could become a part time third and long pass rusher and would spell Strahan. So that means while his stats may go down, his productivity and impact on the field may be longer lasting through the next few years.

 

 

That makes some sense, but a first rounder on a part time player is a little expensive IMO.

[HOUND]

That makes some sense, but a first rounder on a part time player is a little expensive IMO.

 

C'mon Boohyah, I don't think the plan is for Kiwi to be a part time payer his whole career. Several teams work rookies in slowly, especially when the guy ahead of him is ultra talented. It's a win/win for both players.

 

If you don't like drafting "part time players" I can likely make a better argument against Sinorice Moss, as it's a BIG question mark as to whether he'll ever be an everydown player.

[boohyah]

C'mon Boohyah, I don't think the plan is for Kiwi to be a part time payer his whole career. Several teams work rookies in slowly, especially when the guy ahead of him is ultra talented. It's a win/win for both players.

 

If you don't like drafting "part time players" I can likely make a better argument against Sinorice Moss, as it's a BIG question mark as to whether he'll ever be an everydown player.

 

I like drafting part time players in the later rounds sure.

 

Sinorice Moss could be an everydown player as early as next year.

 

Personally anybody drafted in the first/second round should be projected as a starter in 1-2 years IMO. That's why they get picked that high and it's not unreasonable. After watching Justin Tuck play last year, there is a very good possibility that when strahan does leave (which could be 3-4 years from now), Tuck could be the one to take his place.

 

fact is our need was DT and if we stayed where we were we could have taken McCargo. Now is it possible that he might suck after we pick him? sure. But the idea is to get a guy to play a position you need to fill. how pissed off will everybody be is this kid Kiwi comes in and sucks up the joint, everybody is going to be crying that we should have drafted a DT. Money likes to use the term you pick players not positions but last time I looked John Mc Cargo was a player.

[parlintm]

I like drafting part time players in the later rounds sure.

 

Sinorice Moss could be an everydown player as early as next year.

 

Personally anybody drafted in the first/second round should be projected as a starter in 1-2 years IMO. That's why they get picked that high and it's not unreasonable. After watching Justin Tuck play last year, there is a very good possibility that when strahan does leave (which could be 3-4 years from now), Tuck could be the one to take his place.

 

fact is our need was DT and if we stayed where we were we could have taken McCargo. Now is it possible that he might suck after we pick him? sure. But the idea is to get a guy to play a position you need to fill. how pissed off will everybody be is this kid Kiwi comes in and sucks up the joint, everybody is going to be crying that we should have drafted a DT. Money likes to use the term you pick players not positions but last time I looked John Mc Cargo was a player.

 

1. I think it's more likely that Strahan leaves in 1-2 years than 3-4. If we win the SB, hes going to retire. That could happen this year or next. And even if it doesnt, I still think it's likely.

 

2. John McCargo would have been a terrible pick at 25. Obviously he's a football player (I think everyone except Jai Lewis and the other UConn bballer in this draft are as well, nobody's arguing that) but we would have been drafting him because he was the best (not even sure about that) DT on the board and not the best player. That's what we mean by you draft players not positions. I doubt Mccargo would have even contributed this year much more than someone like Cofield will. He would have been drafted for the future years not this one. Just because the Bills (the team that everyone skewers about blowing the draft every year was the one that "reached" for him by all consensus), drafted him in the 1st doesnt mean he's a great player.

 

3. The chances of any DT's being a bust at 25 seemed quite high. I think almost everyone would agree that there just wasnt a DT worthy of the 25th pick.

 

4. It sounds like TC is impressed with Duckett and Seawright and thinks we will be too. If that's the case, then as I said before a drafted DT wouldnt even start for us so it would have been a waste of a pick if you're only trying to draft by position.

 

I think the argument of drafting a DT in the 1st just doesnt work. Maybe you could make the case that we should have gotten one in the second but I think almost everyone would rather have Moss. So, as it turns out we did the best we could regarding a DT and I'm fine with our situation. All we need is to have a DT that occupies blockers and allows the gazillion playmakers on our defensee to make the plays. There are a ton of players that can fulfill that responsibility and that we will be sufficient at that position this season.

[parlintm]

Also, for those of you who are saying that Kiwi is too skinny or not big enough, etc...

 

Mike Strahan: 6-5 260

Mathias Kiwanuka: 6-6 265

Justin Tuck: 6-5 268

 

I think he'll fit right in.

[boohyah]

Okay, I get it. We drafted the guy now let's build a case for why EA made such a good move with this pick.

 

IMO, it's simply not a good move.

 

Years ago, we needed a tight end, the best one available was Shockey, we traded up to get him.

 

We needed a running back when we picked up Dayne.

 

We needed a corner: we traded up to get Will Allen

 

We held our ground and picked Shaun Williams up because we needed safety help.

 

Ike Hilliard was a need, hell you could say Eli was a need because of the fact that Collins had one year on his contract.

 

We needed help at DT a few years back when we drafted William Joseph.

 

Even last year, Corey Webster was a need at corner.

 

Fact is, in previous drafts, we've filled needs, you cannot deny this. Even though Allen, Williams, Dayne and to a lesser extent Hilliard never became studs that you expect from first rounders, the Giants did the right thing with those drafts and can be only faulted for bad scouting.

 

DE was not a need before this years draft. How many people here were calling for Strahan's eventual replacement prior to this draft.? About as many as were looking for Tiki's, a guy who has hinted that when his contract is up, he's gone, Strahan hasn't said anything!. Yet we never thought about getting a running back.

 

DT was a need, did we address it with Cofield, I hope so, I truly hope we did and he pans out because I want the Giants to win. But everything points to the fact that McCargo was the better pick. Be it late first round or late 2nd round. We could have had him at 25 because he went 26.

 

I find it funny to hear guys say we have to pick the best available player, but isn't the purpose of that defeated when you trade down seven spots, just to get later round picks. We're giving up on the possibility of the 25th best player in the draft and are satisfied with getting the 32nd best. Very strange.

[fishgutmartyr]

Okay, I get it. We drafted the guy now let's build a case for why EA made such a good move with this pick.

 

IMO, it's simply not a good move.

 

Years ago, we needed a tight end, the best one available was Shockey, we traded up to get him.

 

We needed a running back when we picked up Dayne.

 

We needed a corner: we traded up to get Will Allen

 

We held our ground and picked Shaun Williams up because we needed safety help.

 

Ike Hilliard was a need, hell you could say Eli was a need because of the fact that Collins had one year on his contract.

 

We needed help at DT a few years back when we drafted William Joseph.

 

Even last year, Corey Webster was a need at corner.

 

Fact is, in previous drafts, we've filled needs, you cannot deny this. Even though Allen, Williams, Dayne and to a lesser extent Hilliard never became studs that you expect from first rounders, the Giants did the right thing with those drafts and can be only faulted for bad scouting.

 

DE was not a need before this years draft. How many people here were calling for Strahan's eventual replacement prior to this draft.? About as many as were looking for Tiki's, a guy who has hinted that when his contract is up, he's gone, Strahan hasn't said anything!. Yet we never thought about getting a running back.

 

DT was a need, did we address it with Cofield, I hope so, I truly hope we did and he pans out because I want the Giants to win. But everything points to the fact that McCargo was the better pick. Be it late first round or late 2nd round. We could have had him at 25 because he went 26.

 

I find it funny to hear guys say we have to pick the best available player, but isn't the purpose of that defeated when you trade down seven spots, just to get later round picks. We're giving up on the possibility of the 25th best player in the draft and are satisfied with getting the 32nd best. Very strange.

Of the 5 guys that were drafted by need in the first round (Eli really wasn't a need, we could have extended Collins if we wanted to; Webster was 2nd round), 3 of those players were, to put it mildly, disappointing. Other than a superbowl due to an incredibly weak NFC that year, what has our record been after drafting by need? Some of it has to do with scouting, but some of it also has to do with us getting guys who simply didn't deserve to be drafted in the first round, even if they were the best available at their position. If it makes you feel any better, I was just as confused when we drafted Carl Banks back then.

 

Even Shockey, we only traded up 2 spots for him. To get a great DT, we would have had to trade up 12 spots to get Bunkley, as it turned out. What would that have left us as far as draft picks are concerned?

 

Even if we blew off the trade and picked McCargo (which is what we would have had to do, considering the huge reach the Bills did), there is no way he would have been able to meet the expectations we would have had if he was our first round choice. The pressure on the kid would have been off of the charts, especially with the "reach" tag he would have gotten from the media. Hell, look at the pressure Kiwi is going to feel, and he was pegged to be a first-rounder.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Barens]

I like drafting part time players in the later rounds sure.

 

Sinorice Moss could be an everydown player as early as next year.

 

Personally anybody drafted in the first/second round should be projected as a starter in 1-2 years IMO. That's why they get picked that high and it's not unreasonable. After watching Justin Tuck play last year, there is a very good possibility that when strahan does leave (which could be 3-4 years from now), Tuck could be the one to take his place.

 

fact is our need was DT and if we stayed where we were we could have taken McCargo. Now is it possible that he might suck after we pick him? sure. But the idea is to get a guy to play a position you need to fill. how pissed off will everybody be is this kid Kiwi comes in and sucks up the joint, everybody is going to be crying that we should have drafted a DT. Money likes to use the term you pick players not positions but last time I looked John Mc Cargo was a player.

 

What's going to make some of these picks a little maddening, is when we start hearing about the players who we passed on who are succeeding on other teams...whether it's DeAngelo Williams, Kelly Jennings, John Mcargo, Nick Mangold, Santanio Holmes, Chad Jackson, D'Quell Jackson, Demeco Ryans, Rocky McIntosh, Joseph Addai, Thomas Howard, Jimmy Williams, or Winston Justice. Kiwi is most likely going to be brought along slowly, and when or if one of these other prospects has some success, where going to hear about it.

[parlintm]

What's going to make some of these picks a little maddening, is when we start hearing about the players who we passed on who are succeeding on other teams...whether it's DeAngelo Williams, Kelly Jennings, John Mcargo, Nick Mangold, Santanio Holmes, Chad Jackson, D'Quell Jackson, Demeco Ryans, Rocky McIntosh, Joseph Addai, Thomas Howard, Jimmy Williams, or Winston Justice. Kiwi is most likely going to be brought along slowly, and when or if one of these other prospects has some success, where going to hear about it.

 

But the irony is that when most of these guys become busts we won't hear a peep.

[boohyah]

But the irony is that when most of these guys become busts we won't hear a peep.

 

 

Whether or not you hear about it later doesn't matter. Will Allen was supposed to be a steal at where we picked him, but I wouldn't consider him a steal now.

 

In hindsight, the best example is Dayne, everybody cries but we could have had Shaun Alexander. Well dayne won the Heisman and held the record for yards in college. When we had to get a running back that year and Dayne was still there at 10 it was a smart move to pick him, even if he disappointed us, nothing dayne did in college led us to believe he'd flop in the pros.

 

Did Buffalo reach, yes!. Did they get the player they wanted?. They think so. That's all you can ask.

[parlintm]

Did Buffalo reach, yes!. Did they get the player they wanted?. They think so. That's all you can ask.

 

Did we reach? No. Did we get the player we wanted? Yes! That's all you can ask.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Armstead98

[boohyah]

Of the 5 guys that were drafted by need in the first round (Eli really wasn't a need, we could have extended Collins if we wanted to; Webster was 2nd round), 3 of those players were, to put it mildly, disappointing. Other than a superbowl due to an incredibly weak NFC that year, what has our record been after drafting by need? Some of it has to do with scouting, but some of it also has to do with us getting guys who simply didn't deserve to be drafted in the first round, even if they were the best available at their position. If it makes you feel any better, I was just as confused when we drafted Carl Banks back then.

 

Even Shockey, we only traded up 2 spots for him. To get a great DT, we would have had to trade up 12 spots to get Bunkley, as it turned out. What would that have left us as far as draft picks are concerned?

 

Even if we blew off the trade and picked McCargo (which is what we would have had to do, considering the huge reach the Bills did), there is no way he would have been able to meet the expectations we would have had if he was our first round choice. The pressure on the kid would have been off of the charts, especially with the "reach" tag he would have gotten from the media. Hell, look at the pressure Kiwi is going to feel, and he was pegged to be a first-rounder.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

The Giants drafted who they thought were the best players at the position they needed to fill. That meant Allen, Joseph, Dayne, and Williams as examples. We weren't the only teams to think that, all those guys would have gotten picked in the first round by other teams.

 

Mccargo may well be a tweener, but anybody in the 20-32 range could easily have fallen into the 2nd round. His stock had been moving in the draft, and some people had predicted he'd go in the first. Pressure is not an option for first round rookies, they are all under pressure. Hell think about Mario Williams for a second, that's pressure.

[Barens]

Whether or not you hear about it later doesn't matter. Will Allen was supposed to be a steal at where we picked him, but I wouldn't consider him a steal now.

 

In hindsight, the best example is Dayne, everybody cries but we could have had Shaun Alexander. Well dayne won the Heisman and held the record for yards in college. When we had to get a running back that year and Dayne was still there at 10 it was a smart move to pick him, even if he disappointed us, nothing dayne did in college led us to believe he'd flop in the pros.

 

Did Buffalo reach, yes!. Did they get the player they wanted?. They think so. That's all you can ask.

 

Actually, there were plenty of Giants fans who voiced there displeasure over picking Ron Dayne, but I can't remember a soul who wanted Shaun Alexander pre-draft, or complained about not not getting him soon thereafter.

[boohyah]

Actually, there were plenty of Giants fans who voiced there displeasure over picking Ron Dayne, but I can't remember a soul who wanted Shaun Alexander pre-draft, or complained about not not getting him soon thereafter.

 

 

that's because nobody did!. The argument was should we pick Thomas Jones or Dayne.

[gateb]

Actually, there were plenty of Giants fans who voiced there displeasure over picking Ron Dayne, but I can't remember a soul who wanted Shaun Alexander pre-draft, or complained about not not getting him soon thereafter.

I don't remember but who did most of the fans want instead of Dayne then?

[boohyah]

I don't remember but who did most of the fans want instead of Dayne then?

 

 

A lot of people were high on Thomas Jones who went to the Cards at 7.

[Money]

I like drafting part time players in the later rounds sure.

 

Sinorice Moss could be an everydown player as early as next year.

 

Personally anybody drafted in the first/second round should be projected as a starter in 1-2 years IMO. That's why they get picked that high and it's not unreasonable. After watching Justin Tuck play last year, there is a very good possibility that when strahan does leave (which could be 3-4 years from now), Tuck could be the one to take his place.

 

fact is our need was DT and if we stayed where we were we could have taken McCargo. Now is it possible that he might suck after we pick him? sure. But the idea is to get a guy to play a position you need to fill. how pissed off will everybody be is this kid Kiwi comes in and sucks up the joint, everybody is going to be crying that we should have drafted a DT. Money likes to use the term you pick players not positions but last time I looked John Mc Cargo was a player.

 

I agree that McCargo is decent player, but I don't believe he was qualified to be a 1st round pick. I'm also not sure his style of play is consistent with the NT-type the Giants were targetting.

[gateb]

Besides the reach at #8 with Whitner, I think Bills fans should be fine with this because Youbuty at 26 is an okay pick and McCargo at 76, or somewhere around there, would be a solid pick.

[Barens]

I don't remember but who did most of the fans want instead of Dayne then?

 

Our fans were divided. There were plenty of Dayne fans, and there were plenty who just didn't think he was worth that pick, and thought he wouldn't be able to play to his size in the NFL.

[Money]

I actually wanted Alexander ahead of Dayne. Back then, the only college games I watched were UM games ... I recall Michigan doing well vs. Dayne. I also remember being more impressed with Alexander in the Orange Bowl (classic game, btw)...

 

Ironically, anyone care to guess who the 3 stars of that game were?