BronxRik Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 cruz is a RFA next season and nicks is an UFA the next. i think we're in big trouble if we're in the same cap situation next season. hopefully reese can figure it out but it seems like a daunting task I thought I read somewhere that the cap goes up to $135 million next year. If we have to stay below $120 this year, and have to spend 90% of $135 next year, we should be good, right? I mean, not fantastic shape, but should be able to work some deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 that's humorous. So, Nicks would have had BETTER numbers with Jerrell Jernigan and Devin Thomas as the other starting receivers? I don't get it, how do you make that argument, exactly? Like, if only Nicks was on the field and he was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs, he'd have better numbers? I don't think that's true at all, necessarily. And I think it makes for an offense that would struggle immensely. Boss, Manningham, Smith....you had other talented players to take the doubles off him all the time. You had other talented players to move the chains. I don't get your logic here. This lineup was essentially the same as what we have now, except Cruz is a lot better than Steve Smith. that's humorous. So, Nicks would have had BETTER numbers with Jerrell Jernigan and Devin Thomas as the other starting receivers? I don't get it, how do you make that argument, exactly? Like, if only Nicks was on the field and he was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs, he'd have better numbers? I don't think that's true at all, necessarily. And I think it makes for an offense that would struggle immensely. Boss, Manningham, Smith....you had other talented players to take the doubles off him all the time. You had other talented players to move the chains. I don't get your logic here. This lineup was essentially the same as what we have now, except Cruz is a lot better than Steve Smith. jernigan and thomas would not have been the 2nd and 3rd receiving threats after nicks. manningham and ballard would've been which isn't too much of a difference from 2010 when nicks's supporting cast was manningham and boss (smith missed half the year and nicks didn't miss a beat after that injury so he's not much of a factor here) nicks had 3 more catches in 2 less games in 2010 than he did in 2011. he had 11 td's in 13 games two years ago and 7 in 15 games last season. nicks averaged 9.8 targets per game in 2010 and that's with 1 game he didn't start factored in. he was the #1 WR in fantasy football for the first 11 weeks of the season and would've finished at the top WR had he not had missed 3 games with compartment syndrome. he averaged 8.8 targets per game last year and that includes the first two games of the season where cruz barely saw the field. he had 11 targets in week 1 when cruz didn't have a catch, 8 targets in week 2 when cruz had 2 catches for 17 yards, and then 5 in week 3 where cruz breaks out (cruz also had 5). he's clearly losing opportunities because cruz was so good--way better than anybody who was with nicks in 2010. this isn't a slight on cruz, but do i think nicks could go to a shit team and put up 90/1100/8 every season like andre johnson did for in houston with david carr? yes i do. one guy has put up elite numbers without the other before, can the other guy do it too? we might unfortunately find out after next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 And Nicks put up his best stats of his career in every statistical category other than touchdowns. And part of that was Cruz taking ten yard out patterns 80 yards to the house every time he touched the ball. he played 2 less games in 2010, that's why. and he had more catches in 2010 anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well said Hercules, 100% agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 If we're going to nitpick, Cruz didn't go in this season until Hixon went down, so the first two games are kind of moot... I don't see Cruz's presence as affecting Nicks production at all other than improving it. It certainly helped add to Nicks YPC statistic....when you have a threat that you have to cover tight like Cruz, or risk him breaking out a long gain, it allows Nicks much more freedom to go down the field. And Nicks would have been double covered all season if not for Cruz. Had Hixon not been injured, it would have been him that Nicks was "losing production to", only, Hixon isn't scaring anyone in the secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well said Hercules, 100% agreed Awesome, now I'm positive this isn't making any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Nicks could probably put up numbers like that on a shit team, but it'd be part of the reason the team would be a shit team. You need both of those types of receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 If we're going to nitpick, Cruz didn't go in this season until Hixon went down, so the first two games are kind of moot... I don't see Cruz's presence as affecting Nicks production at all other than improving it. It certainly helped add to Nicks YPC statistic....when you have a threat that you have to cover tight like Cruz, or risk him breaking out a long gain, it allows Nicks much more freedom to go down the field. And Nicks would have been double covered all season if not for Cruz. Had Hixon not been injured, it would have been him that Nicks was "losing production to", only, Hixon isn't scaring anyone in the secondary. im only bringing up the first two games to show the dropoff in targets. it's a compliment to cruz that he's able to take any qb attention away from a player like nicks but when you look at the dropoff in targets and consider the fact that eli threw 10% more passes in 2011 than he did in 2010 then i think it points to cruz taking opportunities away from nicks rather than his presence helping him. in fact i'd say nicks helped cruz way more. no one goes from 0 to 1,500 yds overnight unless you have an established player getting double teamed. even moss benefited from playing with cris carter when he exploded his first season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Nicks could probably put up numbers like that on a shit team, but it'd be part of the reason the team would be a shit team. You need both of those types of receivers. i don't see the connection, personally. this isn't a carmello anthony-type situation. a guy like andre johnson was doing all he could in those bad seasons in houston. his great production didn't contribute to his team performing poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I thought I read somewhere that the cap goes up to $135 million next year. If we have to stay below $120 this year, and have to spend 90% of $135 next year, we should be good, right? I mean, not fantastic shape, but should be able to work some deals. i honestly couldn't tell you because i dont know if anyone's cap numbers go up next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i don't see the connection, personally. this isn't a carmello anthony-type situation. a guy like andre johnson was doing all he could in those bad seasons in houston. his great production didn't contribute to his team performing poorly. Because if you have one good wide receiver and no one else to throw the ball to, you don't pick up yards. You don't pick up yards, you don't score touchdowns, etc, etc. You agree that retaining both will be essential, that's all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I think possession guys that have the speed and route running ability (Cruz) to be dangerous are just as important in the success of a big, physical wide receiver. Sure, the big, physical WR with good hands can make plays on his own but without some complimentary receiver who is going to command the attention of his side of a zone and the attention of the 2nd best CB on the team and probably a safety any time he's going over the middle while picking up first downs is going to help the production of the Nicks-type receiver. I think you have a case for the beginning of the season with Nicks being double teamed helping Cruz but I think as the season progressed that gradually changed. I mean, didn't Cruz own Nnamdi a couple 2, 3 times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 that's humorous. So, Nicks would have had BETTER numbers with Jerrell Jernigan and Devin Thomas as the other starting receivers? I don't get it, how do you make that argument, exactly? Like, if only Nicks was on the field and he was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs, he'd have better numbers? I don't think that's true at all, necessarily. And I think it makes for an offense that would struggle immensely. Boss, Manningham, Smith....you had other talented players to take the doubles off him all the time. You had other talented players to move the chains. I don't get your logic here. This lineup was essentially the same as what we have now, except Cruz is a lot better than Steve Smith. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Lol +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 +1 Haha i don't see the point in arguing Nicks vs Cruz. There both great WRs, but as of now there's no way you can say Cruz is better. Nicks is the guy who dominated the postseason. Cruz dominated the NFC championship game to be fair. And I don't care what anyone says, teams focused on Nicks much then Cruz. If you go back and watch the film teams put there best cover man on Nicks plus a Saftey most of the time. Love them both, but love Nicks more. Plus Nicks is super classy, where Cruz is just classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just glad we got both these guys for 2012. Let Reese worry about the finance. I'm sure they will work it out as long as they are both reasonable in there demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I think possession guys that have the speed and route running ability (Cruz) to be dangerous are just as important in the success of a big, physical wide receiver. Sure, the big, physical WR with good hands can make plays on his own but without some complimentary receiver who is going to command the attention of his side of a zone and the attention of the 2nd best CB on the team and probably a safety any time he's going over the middle while picking up first downs is going to help the production of the Nicks-type receiver. I think you have a case for the beginning of the season with Nicks being double teamed helping Cruz but I think as the season progressed that gradually changed. I mean, didn't Cruz own Nnamdi a couple 2, 3 times? i understand what you're saying in theory, but imo the numbers support the point I am making. he had less catches and less TD's in 2 extra games last season. the yards per game were about the same, and he had less first downs per game with cruz there. YAC is a volatile number. his was 9 in 2009 in 14 games on a not-so-small sample size of 47 catches. and this was all with manning throwing 10% more passes last year. i don't see that pointing to anything other than cruz's breakout season taking numbers away from nicks. i think if cruz isn't on the giants in 2011 you'd see a big bump in individual production--especially considering it was only his 3rd season as a pro. no we don't win a superbowl but that's not the issue i was raising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just glad we got both these guys for 2012. Let Reese worry about the finance. I'm sure they will work it out as long as they are both reasonable in there demands. i know, i really hate to even bring this up when the issue is more than a year away but i love this WR duo so much that I hate to see it broken up after only two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i understand what you're saying in theory, but imo the numbers support the point I am making. he had less catches and less TD's in 2 extra games last season. the yards per game were about the same, and he had less first downs per game with cruz there. YAC is a volatile number. his was 9 in 2009 in 14 games on a not-so-small sample size of 47 catches. and this was all with manning throwing 10% more passes last year. i don't see that pointing to anything other than cruz's breakout season taking numbers away from nicks. i think if cruz isn't on the giants in 2011 you'd see a big bump in individual production--especially considering it was only his 3rd season as a pro. no we don't win a superbowl but that's not the issue i was raising. You can use numbers to support whatever you want to say. Again, Nicks' increase in YPC, a statistic that I value highly, personally, is due, at least in part, to the emergence of Cruz. Is it bad that he's scoring more touchdowns than Nicks? The numbers we are talking about on touchdowns and receptions are so small. But he's averaging more than 2 yards per catch MORE with Cruz than he did last season without Steve Smith. That's every reception he's gaining two extra yards compared to what, 3 less receptions, 3 less touchdowns? And, if you notice, his YPC was less in 2010, when Smith went down, and much higher (nearly 4 yards more per catch) in 2009 went Smith went insane See what I mean? You can manipulate stats to say whatever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 i am not manipulating stats. i am stating the standard stats under the catagories by which wr's have been traditionally judged by. you are cherry picking one stat out of a bunch that is favorable to your argument when all the others are not. not to mention that we're talking about a 3rd year pro-bowl caliber WR who is supposed to be improving in all stats across the board from season 2 to season 3. it's rare that someone this good drops off in all catagories from season 2 to season 3 yet still shows that his skills are improving. that points to less targets. targets that cruz has taken from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stats and numbers aside. Nicks is the better WR IMO. Cruz is still a potential stud though, I just wanna see him have a similar season this year before I put him in Hakeems category. Nicks is a top 5 WR IMO in the NFL. Not sure you can say Cruz is top 5 yet, although IMO Cruz is top 10-15 no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i am not manipulating stats. i am stating the standard stats under the catagories by which wr's have been traditionally judged by. you are cherry picking one stat out of a bunch that is favorable to your argument when all the others are not. not to mention that we're talking about a 3rd year pro-bowl caliber WR who is supposed to be improving in all stats across the board from season 2 to season 3. it's rare that someone this good drops off in all catagories from season 2 to season 3 yet still shows that his skills are improving. that points to less targets. targets that cruz has taken from him. And you're cherry picking several that could be completely due to chance or even regression toward the mean, lol. 3 less receptions, 4 less touchdowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I.E. using stats to support whatever you want to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Plus, the season long health of tight ends and fellow wide receivers, etc. And the increase in Eli's attempts is due to the ineffective run game. He's a quarterback known to spread the ball out and make players around him better. Manningham had nearly 40 catches, 500 yards, and 4 TDs, that's a sizeable chunk...and he was healthy for only 12 games...but suppose he took some stats from Nicks, too? Same with Ballard, but even more yards. He was healthy for most of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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