The Troubled WR spot

[Lughead]

Sinorice Moss looks like another Giants' bust

 

BY RALPH VACCHIANO

 

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

 

Wednesday, November 7th 2007, 4:00 AM

 

 

Remember Brian Alford (third round, 1998), Ron Dixon (third, 2000), Tim Carter (second, 2002) and Jamaar Taylor (sixth, 2004)? Sinorice Moss (second, 2006) may be the latest failure by the Giants in their attempt to develop a solid No. 3 receiver.

 

They are not giving up yet, but the coaching staff is concerned after he was a complete non-factor (six catches, 24 yards) in the six weeks rookie WR Steve Smith (shoulder) was sidelined.

 

There was so much excitement about the potential of the elusive, speedy, 5-8 Moss when the Giants traded up to get him in last year's draft. After an injury-plagued rookie season and a disappointing start this year, most of that excitement is gone.

 

"We certainly think he has a lot of ability and just for whatever reason it hasn't played out on game days," offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride said. "Certainly he has great quickness and some good speed and he actually did some good things blocking for the run game that won't necessarily show up, but the numbers don't reflect what we were hoping for. Maybe we are asking him to do some things that he can't do."

 

Smith is expected to practice this week and could get his No.3 receiver job back on Sunday.

 

 

 

GIANTS' CLIPBOARD

 

Hot Seat

Lawrence Tynes. The sometimes shaky kicker has seemed to be one miss away from unemployment for more than a month.

 

X's and O's

Since allowing Cowboys TE Jason Witten to catch 6 passes for 116 yards on opening night, Giants have allowed opposing TE's only 4.4 catches and 36 yards per game.

 

Whispers

With Derrick Ward (ankle) still hobbling, Giants' 1-2 RB punch will likely turn into The Brandon Jacobs show. He's gotten 60.3% of carries the last two weeks.

[xxi-xxv]

We always get the 2nd best brother

[Lughead]

We always get the 2nd best brother

 

or the wrong steve smith .... no ,I can't knock him (our steve smith) for being injured

[fishgutmartyr]

I kind of disagree with the Jamaar Taylor reference as a bust. You can't really fault him for having a botched surgery. Besides, a guy drafted that late isn't exactly a lock for a roster spot. Not that it helps the Giants any, but that's kind of rough.

 

The thing that pisses me off about Moss is that we gave up an extra pick to get him, and still wound up having to get another wide receiver in the 2nd this year.

[NeMesiS]

I think its the play calling of TC staffs. In Jacksonville they had the same problems with the 3rd WR and TE. I mean, we have one the best TE in the league and he hasn't done shit all year. Only in the Washington game has Shockey done a seem route up the middle. He smoke Roy Willaims every year and watch, 3 yard curls is all you're going to see out of Shockey against the Cowboys. Watch!

 

 

[jranieli]

I think its the play calling of TC staffs. In Jacksonville they had the same problems with the 3rd WR and TE. I mean, we have one the best TE in the league and he hasn't done shit all year. Only in the Washington game has Shockey done a seem route up the middle. He smoke Roy Willaims every year and watch, 3 yard curls is all you're going to see out of Shockey against the Cowboys. Watch!

 

It doesn't help sometimes that Shockey has hands of stone.

[xxi-xxv]

I think its the play calling of TC staffs. In Jacksonville they had the same problems with the 3rd WR and TE. I mean, we have one the best TE in the league and he hasn't done shit all year. Only in the Washington game has Shockey done a seem route up the middle. He smoke Roy Willaims every year and watch, 3 yard curls is all you're going to see out of Shockey against the Cowboys. Watch!

 

Couple things to keep in mind 1)Sockey does do more than your avrage TE in terms of pass catching 66 receptions in 06 (which was his highest total since his rookie year) and he also is counted on to block a lot(something he now does very well as compared to when he started and 2) he is just not as good as some Giant fans like to believe. I know this idea is tough to take, but he is nowhere near as explosive run you over as he used to be. Guy is a very good TE, but I think sometimes us Giant fans overrate him. This idea that he is not used is incorrect though, he has averaged 60+ catches/year under TC, far and away well above average of your normal starting NFL TE.

[xxi-xxv]

It doesn't help sometimes that Shockey has hands of stone.

 

check this out

 

NFC Leaders: Passes Dropped (Thru Nov. 5, 2007)

 

 

Rank Player Team Stats

1 Devery Henderson NO 8

2t Santana Moss Was 6

2t Jason Witten Dal 6

4t Shaun Alexander Sea 5

4t Cedric Benson Chi 5

4t Plaxico Burress NYG 5

4t Reggie Bush NO 5

4t Keary Colbert Car 5

4t Edgerrin James Ari 5

4t Terrell Owens Dal 5

4t Steve Smith Car 5

4t Brian Westbrook Phi 5

4t Roy Williams Det 5

14t Arnaz Battle SF 4

14t Bernard Berrian Chi 4

14t Correll Buckhalter Phi 4

14t Kevin Curtis Phi 4

14t Michael Jenkins Atl 4

14t Mike Sellers Was 4

14t Derrick Ward NYG 4

 

LINK

 

Cannot wait till Francessa on WFAN tells us how great Witten is becase he does not drop balls like Shockey.

 

[Treehugger]

I'd like to see them lead Shockey more and allow for him to run loose in the secondary rather than curl routes and sideline catches.

[fishgutmartyr]

2) he is just not as good as some Giant fans like to believe. I know this idea is tough to take, but he is nowhere near as explosive run you over as he used to be. Guy is a very good TE, but I think sometimes us Giant fans overrate him. This idea that he is not used is incorrect though, he has averaged 60+ catches/year under TC, far and away well above average of your normal starting NFL TE.

 

It's not exactly a secret that I'm not a fan of Shockey, but to be fair, after all the injuries he's had to his feet and legs, it's not really that surprising that he's not as explosive as he once was. And while Gonzalez and Gates are on a completely different level, if you are talking top TEs in the league other than those two, he has to be in the conversation.

 

But he's still bone-stupid.

[xxi-xxv]

It's not exactly a secret that I'm not a fan of Shockey, but to be fair, after all the injuries he's had to his feet and legs, it's not really that surprising that he's not as explosive as he once was. And while Gonzalez and Gates are on a completely different level, if you are talking top TEs in the league other than those two, he has to be in the conversation.

 

But he's still bone-stupid.

 

totally agree with that assesment, thats why I cannot question the coaching staff about his usage when he has averaged 60+ receptions and 15 games played under this current regime. What I refuse to do anymore than I think some Giant fans just cannot come to grips with is overate him. He is no Gonzo or Gates, but yes you are right after that he is right there.

[BIGBLUE01]

totally agree with that assesment, thats why I cannot question the coaching staff about his usage when he has averaged 60+ receptions and 15 games played under this current regime. What I refuse to do anymore than I think some Giant fans just cannot come to grips with is overate him. He is no Gonzo or Gates, but yes you are right after that he is right there.

 

No, he's definatley no Gates. Gates drops more. Maybe not this year, but overall, Antonio is a drop amchine.

[NeMesiS]

totally agree with that assesment, thats why I cannot question the coaching staff about his usage when he has averaged 60+ receptions and 15 games played under this current regime. What I refuse to do anymore than I think some Giant fans just cannot come to grips with is overate him. He is no Gonzo or Gates, but yes you are right after that he is right there.

I disagree to a certain point. Yes, Shockey is slower and he's not as explosive as his rookie year. But, that doesn't mean he's not a good TE. This coaching staff just doesn't know how to use the TE in the passing game...period. For example ( And I think Carl Banks said this on radio. So I'll use his example.) The Giants offensive coordinator doesn't know the talent he has around him. Shockey had 3 catches for 15 yards against the Dolphins. One of them went for 21 yards.....So that means the other 2 went for -6 yards. The one that went for 21 yards was a crossing route agaist a SS (Or LB). So instead of using that pattern again, he went back to a curl route. Which went for 0 yards. The whole game, he refuse to use any patterns the required usage of double moves. In fact, when was the last time you saw any of our WR use a double move pattern?

 

Guys, I'm telling you. Kevin Notsobright has a history of not knowing how to use the TE position. The only game I saw Shockey run a seem route was against the Redskins, and sure enough, it was his best game this year. You'll see, teams are going to start double covering Burress and our passing game is going to suffer because of it. You have to challenge the safety and force him to pick his poisen. These 3 yards curls is just making there job easier.... Trust me, the 3 drop balls for 9 yards so far this year isn't the problem. Its the type of route he's running thats the problem.

[fishgutmartyr]

Nem, both xxi-xxv and myself agreed that he was a top NFL tight end, but that he's not at the same level as Gates and Gonzales. I'm not sure how you got to the idea that either of us thought he wasn't a good TE. Stupid beyond belief, but a talented tight end.

 

I'm sorry, but that's as high a praise as Shockey is going to get from me.

[NeMesiS]

Nem, both xxi-xxv and myself agreed that he was a top NFL tight end, but that he's not at the same level as Gates and Gonzales. I'm not sure how you got to the idea that either of us thought he wasn't a good TE. Stupid beyond belief, but a talented tight end.

 

I'm sorry, but that's as high a praise as Shockey is going to get from me.

Oh I agree...Gonzales and Gates are better TE's. But this coaching staff are misusing Shockey. I'm telling you.

[ksm7]

check this out

 

NFC Leaders: Passes Dropped (Thru Nov. 5, 2007)

 

 

Rank Player Team Stats

1 Devery Henderson NO 8

2t Santana Moss Was 6

2t Jason Witten Dal 6

4t Shaun Alexander Sea 5

4t Cedric Benson Chi 5

4t Plaxico Burress NYG 5

4t Reggie Bush NO 5

4t Keary Colbert Car 5

4t Edgerrin James Ari 5

4t Terrell Owens Dal 5

4t Steve Smith Car 5

4t Brian Westbrook Phi 5

4t Roy Williams Det 5

14t Arnaz Battle SF 4

14t Bernard Berrian Chi 4

14t Correll Buckhalter Phi 4

14t Kevin Curtis Phi 4

14t Michael Jenkins Atl 4

14t Mike Sellers Was 4

14t Derrick Ward NYG 4

 

LINK

 

Cannot wait till Francessa on WFAN tells us how great Witten is becase he does not drop balls like Shockey.

 

The Dog would argue that these numbers are meaningless unless they are attached to the number of times each player has had the ball thrown to them, how many passes were caught, and how many were defended or not catchable...

[xxi-xxv]

I disagree to a certain point. Yes, Shockey is slower and he's not as explosive as his rookie year. But, that doesn't mean he's not a good TE. This coaching staff just doesn't know how to use the TE in the passing game...period. For example ( And I think Carl Banks said this on radio. So I'll use his example.) The Giants offensive coordinator doesn't know the talent he has around him. Shockey had 3 catches for 15 yards against the Dolphins. One of them went for 21 yards.....So that means the other 2 went for -6 yards. The one that went for 21 yards was a crossing route agaist a SS (Or LB). So instead of using that pattern again, he went back to a curl route. Which went for 0 yards. The whole game, he refuse to use any patterns the required usage of double moves. In fact, when was the last time you saw any of our WR use a double move pattern?

 

Guys, I'm telling you. Kevin Notsobright has a history of not knowing how to use the TE position. The only game I saw Shockey run a seem route was against the Redskins, and sure enough, it was his best game this year. You'll see, teams are going to start double covering Burress and our passing game is going to suffer because of it. You have to challenge the safety and force him to pick his poisen. These 3 yards curls is just making there job easier.... Trust me, the 3 drop balls for 9 yards so far this year isn't the problem. Its the type of route he's running thats the problem.

 

Again Nem, he plays along with two very good Wr's and had played the last 3 years under TC with a RB that would grab 50 balls a year and he averaged 60+ receptions and 7 tds a year under TC. In fact he had more Td's in Tc's first year as HC then he did in his first 2 years. I think there is this idea that everyone wants to grasp at straws to find fault with these coaches and in this regard you are stretching. A TE who catches 60 balls and grabs 7 tds is well above average. I can make a case that this coaching staff has finnally been able to utilize SHockey properly in that they have gotten him involved in the red zone. Take that fact along with the fact he is not as good at stretching the field and plowing people over as he was in 2002/03 and IMO this staff gets credit for working with and utilizing what they have.

 

He is also averaging 11.5 yards/catch so I would say they are at least getting him in some space. Blaming the coaching staff because Shockey does not have Gates' numbers is grasping at straws IMO.

[Nas]

It doesn't help sometimes that Shockey has hands of stone.

 

This is exactly true. I don't understand those dropped passes.. constantly..

 

It's about momentum and if Shockey wants the ball, then he better not drop passes.

[Nas]

Couple things to keep in mind 1)Sockey does do more than your avrage TE in terms of pass catching 66 receptions in 06 (which was his highest total since his rookie year) and he also is counted on to block a lot(something he now does very well as compared to when he started and 2) he is just not as good as some Giant fans like to believe. I know this idea is tough to take, but he is nowhere near as explosive run you over as he used to be. Guy is a very good TE, but I think sometimes us Giant fans overrate him. This idea that he is not used is incorrect though, he has averaged 60+ catches/year under TC, far and away well above average of your normal starting NFL TE.

 

While I think you're right on... asl always, I feel Shockey has the potential to be a top TE if not the best TE in the league. For some reason he doesn't look focused out there.. as evident by the passes he drop.

 

I don't think we overrate Shockey... he was picked in the first round no? The key is to get him going early... something we don't seem to focus on.. but again, some say we need to get Jocobs going early... what gives?

[RandolphScott]

We should have never, never let Joe Jurivicious go.

[BIGBLUE01]

The Dog would argue that these numbers are meaningless unless they are attached to the number of times each player has had the ball thrown to them, how many passes were caught, and how many were defended or not catchable...

Bigblue looks up in the sky to see if pigs are flying

 

Uhh.....I .....uhhh, I actually agree with this.

 

But very good point, if devery had 9 balls thrown to him, wow, thats bad. I see what youre saying and it makes alot of sense.

[Nas]

We should have never, never let Joe Jurivicious go.

 

You mean Ike Hilliard?

[ksm7]

Bigblue looks up in the sky to see if pigs are flying

 

Uhh.....I .....uhhh, I actually agree with this.

 

But very good point, if devery had 9 balls thrown to him, wow, thats bad. I see what youre saying and it makes alot of sense.

 

Write this date down in your history books then...The Dog gets a slight agreement...time to retire...

[Treehugger]

The Dog would argue that these numbers are meaningless unless they are attached to the number of times each player has had the ball thrown to them, how many passes were caught, and how many were defended or not catchable...

These aren't offical stats, but I'm pretty sure they don't count defended or non-catchable balls. They only count ones that hit their hands and aren't broken up by a defender.

[Treehugger]

This is exactly true. I don't understand those dropped passes.. constantly..

 

It's about momentum and if Shockey wants the ball, then he better not drop passes.

The stats posted above would suggest you have an extremely selective memory. Less than 4 drops in 8 games.