The Troubled WR spot

[RandolphScott]

You mean Ike Hilliard?

 

 

No, I don't mean Ike Hilliard. Ike was a starter and a pretty good option to Toomer

in those days. Jurevicious was tall (6'5), lanky and had some speed. He could go over

the middle with the best of them and keep on ticking. Imagine defenses now trying to

cover the height of Burress (6'5) Toomer (6'3) Shockey (6'5) and Jurevicious.

[boohyah]

check this out

 

NFC Leaders: Passes Dropped (Thru Nov. 5, 2007)

 

 

Rank Player Team Stats

1 Devery Henderson NO 8

2t Santana Moss Was 6

2t Jason Witten Dal 6

4t Shaun Alexander Sea 5

4t Cedric Benson Chi 5

4t Plaxico Burress NYG 5

4t Reggie Bush NO 5

4t Keary Colbert Car 5

4t Edgerrin James Ari 5

4t Terrell Owens Dal 5

4t Steve Smith Car 5

4t Brian Westbrook Phi 5

4t Roy Williams Det 5

14t Arnaz Battle SF 4

14t Bernard Berrian Chi 4

14t Correll Buckhalter Phi 4

14t Kevin Curtis Phi 4

14t Michael Jenkins Atl 4

14t Mike Sellers Was 4

14t Derrick Ward NYG 4

 

LINK

 

Cannot wait till Francessa on WFAN tells us how great Witten is becase he does not drop balls like Shockey.

 

 

Technically, what's a "drop"?. If a pass is thrown directly to you and you have it within arms length, then perhaps that's a drop. When people here equate Shcokey and "drops", I think it has more to do with that he should have been in better position to catch a pass. I forget which game it was, but Eli laid out a good pass for him, just in front of him and Shockey reached out as was not able to catch it, but it hit off his hand before it fell to the ground. I wouldn't call that a drop.

 

Now the Falcons receivers can tell you all about drops.

[NeMesiS]

Again Nem, he plays along with two very good Wr's and had played the last 3 years under TC with a RB that would grab 50 balls a year and he averaged 60+ receptions and 7 tds a year under TC. In fact he had more Td's in Tc's first year as HC then he did in his first 2 years. I think there is this idea that everyone wants to grasp at straws to find fault with these coaches and in this regard you are stretching. A TE who catches 60 balls and grabs 7 tds is well above average. I can make a case that this coaching staff has finnally been able to utilize SHockey properly in that they have gotten him involved in the red zone. Take that fact along with the fact he is not as good at stretching the field and plowing people over as he was in 2002/03 and IMO this staff gets credit for working with and utilizing what they have.

 

He is also averaging 11.5 yards/catch so I would say they are at least getting him in some space. Blaming the coaching staff because Shockey does not have Gates' numbers is grasping at straws IMO.

How can you say that? Let me use the Washingting game as reference... I remember Shockey running two seem routes in that game. One went for 25 yards and he was stopped at the one yard line. The other he left the LB behind with no safety in sight. (Albeit he dropped that pass <_ the point is middle of field always wide open. why not us that listen forget about numbers. getting shockey yardage beside point. what i saying if you really want to see this offense florish we need start challenging safeties with shockey. send him verticle...make safety choose over or burress. these curl route are going help in long run. defenses will catch on real quick and stop it everytime. but reason gilbrite was fired san diego buffalo houston...because he too predictable.>

[Lubeck]

I wonder what the Offensive Quality Control guy says about the playcalling.

[ksm7]

How can you say that? Let me use the Washingting game as reference... I remember Shockey running two seem routes in that game. One went for 25 yards and he was stopped at the one yard line. The other he left the LB behind with no safety in sight. (Albeit he dropped that pass ) The point is, the middle of the field is always wide open. Why not us that? Listen, forget about the numbers. Getting Shockey's yardage is beside the point. What I'm saying, if you really want to see this offense florish, we need to start challenging the safeties with Shockey. Send him verticle...Make the safety choose over Shockey or Burress. These curl route are not going to help us in the long run. Defenses will catch on real quick and stop it everytime. But this is the reason why Gilbrite was fired in San Diego, Buffalo, Houston...because he's too predictable.

 

The Dog concurs...what makes Gates so effective is that he creates match-up challenges for defenses because of the way the Chargers move him around...he is to big for cover corners to handle him effectively, and he has enough quickness and runs effective routes that slower safeties and linebackers have difficulty against him...Shockey could create some of the same issues...couple that with the fact that the Giants have better talent then the Chargers on the outside, and one can only question why he isn't more of a factor in games...The Dog is of the belief that the TE position can make or break an offense if utilized well...see Dallas Clark, Witten, Heap...in years past, it was Winslow, Shannon Sharp...

[Lubeck]

The Dog concurs...what makes Gates so effective is that he creates match-up challenges for defenses because of the way the Chargers move him around...he is to big for cover corners to handle him effectively, and he has enough quickness and runs effective routes that slower safeties and linebackers have difficulty against him...Shockey could create some of the same issues...couple that with the fact that the Giants have better talent then the Chargers on the outside, and one can only question why he isn't more of a factor in games...The Dog is of the belief that the TE position can make or break an offense if utilized well...see Dallas Clark, Witten, Heap...in years past, it was Winslow, Shannon Sharp...

 

Shockey under Fassel was used like Gates is now. He frequently was shifted to the slot or to the outside. This may have had to do with his subpar blocking skills at the time, but it did exactly what you said, created mismatches that freed up other areas of the offense.

 

In order for this offense to truly do what it can they need to be more creative with Shockey.

[Sephiroth]

I think its the play calling of TC staffs. In Jacksonville they had the same problems with the 3rd WR and TE. I mean, we have one the best TE in the league and he hasn't done shit all year. Only in the Washington game has Shockey done a seem route up the middle. He smoke Roy Willaims every year and watch, 3 yard curls is all you're going to see out of Shockey against the Cowboys. Watch!

 

Pete Mitchell was a borderline Pro Bowl TE every year Coughlin and Gilbride were in Jax. I think it may be that Eli just doesn't throw to him... hence the antics from Shockey when he's open.

[fringe]

Shockey (and most tight ends) goes after more balls in a crowd than WR's so chances are there is going to be more drops. It's like a shortstop without much range won't get as many errors bc he doesn't go after a lot.

Besides, Eli is still not the most accurate QB and he rarely leads a guy correctly over the middle.

[xxi-xxv]

How can you say that? Let me use the Washingting game as reference... I remember Shockey running two seem routes in that game. One went for 25 yards and he was stopped at the one yard line. The other he left the LB behind with no safety in sight. (Albeit he dropped that pass ) The point is, the middle of the field is always wide open. Why not us that? Listen, forget about the numbers. Getting Shockey's yardage is beside the point. What I'm saying, if you really want to see this offense florish, we need to start challenging the safeties with Shockey. Send him verticle...Make the safety choose over Shockey or Burress. These curl route are not going to help us in the long run. Defenses will catch on real quick and stop it everytime. But this is the reason why Gilbrite was fired in San Diego, Buffalo, Houston...because he's too predictable.

 

Nem I am not trying to be a dick here, but are you watching game film to know that the middle of the field is "always wide open" as you say? There is no way for us watching the action on TV that we would be able to know this, unless of course you are sitting in the stand watching other parts of the field as plays develop. What the Giants have done in their passing game this year to exploit the middle of the field is play action and quite often in play action passing the TE is required to stay in and block in a max protection for the play to develop. I saw it live in the Jet game and the San Fran game opposing defenses are sitting the strong safeties up in the box to play our run game and the free safety is playing center field to attempt to contain all parts of the downfield passing game in middle of the field. Its really the reason why when Jacobs has been able to break past the line of scrimmage there is no safety in site to make as play as they have been down field to contain the deep pass. See here is the difference, in 2002/03 when Shockey was this constant target in the seam pattern, he was lined up with Dan Campbell who was the blocker and SHockey was normally in the slot, now he is more of a traditional TE, blocks and is an outlet reciever and check down option. Gilbride has hardly been a problem this year and again, to complain about stuff like this is grasping at straws for the sake of.

[Virginia Giant]

No, I don't mean Ike Hilliard. Ike was a starter and a pretty good option to Toomer

in those days. Jurevicious was tall (6'5), lanky and had some speed. He could go over

the middle with the best of them and keep on ticking. Imagine defenses now trying to

cover the height of Burress (6'5) Toomer (6'3) Shockey (6'5) and Jurevicious.

I just came in my pants a little.

 

 

 

 

Seriously, twas a dark day when we didn't resign Joe.

[RaginCaucasian]

I just came in my pants a little.

Seriously, twas a dark day when we didn't resign Joe.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4xmwp8xClvw. Not to mention the crossing route that went about 70 yards in the NFC championship.... again against the Eagles.

 

 

[NeMesiS]

Nem I am not trying to be a dick here, but are you watching game film to know that the middle of the field is "always wide open" as you say? There is no way for us watching the action on TV that we would be able to know this, unless of course you are sitting in the stand watching other parts of the field as plays develop. What the Giants have done in their passing game this year to exploit the middle of the field is play action and quite often in play action passing the TE is required to stay in and block in a max protection for the play to develop. I saw it live in the Jet game and the San Fran game opposing defenses are sitting the strong safeties up in the box to play our run game and the free safety is playing center field to attempt to contain all parts of the downfield passing game in middle of the field. Its really the reason why when Jacobs has been able to break past the line of scrimmage there is no safety in site to make as play as they have been down field to contain the deep pass. See here is the difference, in 2002/03 when Shockey was this constant target in the seam pattern, he was lined up with Dan Campbell who was the blocker and SHockey was normally in the slot, now he is more of a traditional TE, blocks and is an outlet reciever and check down option. Gilbride has hardly been a problem this year and again, to complain about stuff like this is grasping at straws for the sake of.

xxi-xxv,

 

Don't worry about calling me out, and not trying to sound like a dick. I don't claim to know all the answer, and I'm always open to critizism. Except for this topic...I'm right you dick. (I kid, I kid ) I personally don't mind Shockey becoming a traditional TE. But, once in a while, in the game...make him go deep. That's all. It not going to kill Shockey.

You say you saw a free safety playing center field in the Jets and 49ers game. Perfect! Perfect appertunity to send Shock up the middle and leave Burress one-on-one with a cornerback. I take those odds anyday.

[xxi-xxv]

xxi-xxv,

 

Don't worry about calling me out, and not trying to sound like a dick. I don't claim to know all the answer, and I'm always open to critizism. Except for this topic...I'm right you dick. (I kid, I kid ) I personally don't mind Shockey becoming a traditional TE. But, once in a while, in the game...make him go deep. That's all. It not going to kill Shockey.

You say you saw a free safety playing center field in the Jets and 49ers game. Perfect! Perfect appertunity to send Shock up the middle and leave Burress one-on-one with a cornerback. I take those odds anyday.

 

they did do that against the Jets and then threw to plax one on one in the flat with the safety over accounting foe Shockey, it went for a TD. Point is Nem and I hear you and respect that you think Shockey should become more involved, but our offense has kind of evolved into a pound it run game and go for the big play downfield and often in that scenario the TE is used in a different capacity within the scheme. I think as the season goes on you will see more of Shockey, particularly if a 3rd WR option could actually have to be accounted for.