Shockey Trade

[Lubeck]

Is our chance at getting their #1 shot?

 

On Francessa yesterday and right now they were talking like it was a possibility, and are saying they could package their first this year and one of their firsts from next year (the NO first would be for the 2010 draft) to get a pick for Crabtree.

[so-cal dub]

If we did that, I'd probably chuck the remote through my television.

[Lughead]

I thought we traded him for a 2nd and a 5th? how would we get two #1's?

[Lubeck]

I thought we traded him for a 2nd and a 5th? how would we get two #1's?

 

It involves the Jets trading Vilma to them. If Vilma plays 80% of their downs last season and is resigned during this offseason the Jets get the Saints #2 pick. If not the Jets get a #3 pick. If the Jets get a #2 pick from the Saints, the #2 pick we are supposed to get, the Shockey trade changes from a #2 and #5 for 2009 draft to a #1 2010 draft pick.

 

I am not sure if he played enough downs though. And apparently he has some minor legal trouble to deal with.

[BlueInCanada]

It involves the Jets trading Vilma to them. If Vilma plays 80% of their downs last season and is resigned during this offseason the Jets get the Saints #2 pick. If not the Jets get a #3 pick. If the Jets get a #2 pick from the Saints, the #2 pick we are supposed to get, the Shockey trade changes from a #2 and #5 for 2009 draft to a #1 2010 draft pick.

 

I am not sure if he played enough downs though. And apparently he has some minor legal trouble to deal with.

 

Vilma has played the 80% of down part of the trade deal and the Saints we're planning on signing him but Vilma got arrested for reckless/drunk driving and also resiting arrest if I remember correctly. So he just might not be resigned pending the legal issues.

[xxi-xxv]

Basically it boils down to this. Vilma has the 80% of the teams defensive snaps, now if he signs a long term deal with New Orleans BEFORE February 28th(start of free agency period) then the Jets get the Saints 2009 2nd round pick and the Giants would get the Saints 2010 1st round pick.

 

Essentially all New Orleans has to do is resign after he becomes a free agent, a risky move if they really want to keep him.

 

If the Giants want the 1st rounder pray that NO signs him before the period starts and then we get the Saints 2010 1st rounder.

[Lubeck]

Vilma has played the 80% of down part of the trade deal and the Saints we're planning on signing him but Vilma got arrested for reckless/drunk driving and also resiting arrest if I remember correctly. So he just might not be resigned pending the legal issues.

 

Yeah I saw that part....stupid Vilma screwed us out of a #1 pick.

[Lubeck]

Well we know how plaid-man feels, how do the rest of you feel about trading two #1 picks to trade up and grab Crab?

[BlueInCanada]

Well we know how plaid-man feels, how do the rest of you feel about trading two #1 picks to trade up and grab Crab?

 

I watched some college video stuff of him(since everyone is going ga ga over him)...maybe it's because I dont watch college football but in all honesty he doesnt look all that impressive. I remember watching stuff of Calvin Johnson(sp) in college and thinking "Fuck this kid is going to be a animal in the pros" This Crabtree guy looks like he is only using his speed not technique or anything to beat his defenders, but I'm not a talent evaluator so my opinion is pretty much moot.

 

I dont want us to trade up for a guy especially a WR since we have more pressing concerns plus I don't think Resse is one of those "block buster" type trade GMs anyways....but you never know.

[jranieli]

Well we know how plaid-man feels, how do the rest of you feel about trading two #1 picks to trade up and grab Crab?

 

No way, Crabtree will probably will be a top 5 pick. We are sitting at 29 and I do not think even if the Giants got the Saints pick for next year, any team in the top 5 would trade that pick. The Giants will probably have to give a lot more up and they just don't have the picks to do it. Don't forget, the WR position is pretty deep this year. The Giants could always trade up maybe to a mid-round pick and take Darrius Heyward-Bey from Maryland or Jeremy Maclin from Missouri.

[Lubeck]

I dont want us to trade up for a guy especially a WR since we have more pressing concerns

 

 

What more pressing concern is there? There is a less than 1% chance Plax is returning. With him the Giants were near unstoppable. Without him they were an average team. Bringing in a #1 receiver is the biggest need the team has IMHO.

[BlueInCanada]

 

What more pressing concern is there? There is a less than 1% chance Plax is returning. With him the Giants were near unstoppable. Without him they were an average team. Bringing in a #1 receiver is the biggest need the team has IMHO.

 

Unfortunately alot of #1 WRs dont develope till their second/third year. I see our LB core more of a need at this moment and I do believe Plax will be back regardless. We have no starters outside of Pierce at the LB position, maybe we could pick someone up in FA but I highly doubt with Eli/Jacobs/Webster all getting paid in the same season we wont have the "Hey come play for us" type of money. We need a LB who can start, so far the only LB who has shown potential is Kehl and he is only entering his second year. If Kiwi moves back to LB he needs time to adjust and we still have a big gapping hole in our LB core.

 

We need a LB who can come in and play right for the get go, maybe we can pick someone up in the second but I see us using our first for a LB. Then pick some WR up in the second..maybe trade up to the early second for someone.

[so-cal dub]

 

What more pressing concern is there? There is a less than 1% chance Plax is returning. With him the Giants were near unstoppable. Without him they were an average team. Bringing in a #1 receiver is the biggest need the team has IMHO.

and flushing two 1st round picks down the drain for a WR is brilliant? I guess we just tell Manningham to go fuck himself?

 

WR are most of time not a sure thing from the get go.

[xxi-xxv]

First off the chances of the Saints signing him before the FA period is moot. Guess would be they have a deal in place and he will become a FA and re-sign with the Saints, thus allowing the parameters of their original deals to flow through.

 

Second of all I am with So Cal, unless you tell me this is a guarantee to be Larry Fitzgerald I am in no way trading 2 #1 picks for a WR. All you have to do is go back to 1996 and look at the Wr's drafted that year. Keyshawn was #1 overall and a case can be made he was the 4th best one behind Harrison(1stRD), TO(3rdRD) and Toomer(2ndRD)

 

No thanks I will keep the 1st rounders and continue to already build a young roster laden with talent all over.

[Lubeck]

If you think Plax is coming back you are delusional. The evidence against him ensures a conviction. Something needs to be done to address the WR position and while I enjoy hyping Kenny Britt he isn't the talent Crab is.

 

Would you rather dump the picks to get Boldin?

 

As much as you want to trash the defense and the LBs they held up pretty good all season long. Opponents rarely got any success out of their rushing game. But as soon as Plax was permenantly out the offense stunk. They need a threat that will give Eli an option to dump off. They need a player opposing defenses will have to respect. Yeah Crab hasn't played a down but everyone and everything I have heard or read says he is a unique talent that will have a great career.

 

And Socal....Manningham has shown nothing so thinking the Giants can rely on him to step in and create the distraction Plax did is kind of silly now isn't it?

[so-cal dub]

If you think Plax is coming back you are delusional. The evidence against him ensures a conviction. Something needs to be done to address the WR position and while I enjoy hyping Kenny Britt he isn't the talent Crab is.

 

Would you rather dump the picks to get Boldin?

 

As much as you want to trash the defense and the LBs they held up pretty good all season long. Opponents rarely got any success out of their rushing game. But as soon as Plax was permenantly out the offense stunk. They need a threat that will give Eli an option to dump off. They need a player opposing defenses will have to respect. Yeah Crab hasn't played a down but everyone and everything I have heard or read says he is a unique talent that will have a great career.

And Socal....Manningham has shown nothing so thinking the Giants can rely on him to step in and create the distraction Plax did is kind of silly now isn't it?

Not quite as silly as dumping two 1st round picks on a question mark.

 

Like I said, receivers take time to develop. Cut the guy some slack. How many downs did he play? Not many.

[Lubeck]

Not quite as silly as dumping two 1st round picks on a question mark.

 

Like I said, receivers take time to develop. Cut the guy some slack. How many downs did he play? Not many.

 

Your argument is based on his lack of playing? HA! Receivers in general may take time to develop but he did nothing. Smith showed legit talent his rookie season as a slot receiver. Manningham showed nothing

 

And it isn't dumping two first rounders it is dumping one. You give up two first rounders for one in return. Last time I went to kindergarten 2 minus 1 equals 1.

[so-cal dub]

Your argument is based on his lack of playing? HA! Receivers in general may take time to develop but he did nothing. Smith showed legit talent his rookie season as a slot receiver. Manningham showed nothing

 

And it isn't dumping two first rounders it is dumping one. You give up two first rounders for one in return. Last time I went to kindergarten 2 minus 1 equals 1.

um, so we get another pick after we use it on Crabtree? Well fuck me, on board with that now!

[BlueInCanada]

um, so we get another pick after we use it on Crabtree? Well fuck me, on board with that now!

 

No we wouldnt...he would get the pick that he is presuming we take Crabtree with.

 

It's still dumping two first round picks for just one first round pick.

[Lubeck]

It's still dumping two first round picks for just one first round pick.

 

Exactly. Invest two first round picks, two mid to late round picks for one pick at the top of the order to bring in the best receiver in the draft. And a receiver is definitely this teams biggest need to get back to SB contention. Even if you assume he needs a year to adjust it is still better than any other option when it comes to finding a way to get the Giants passing game back to championship level.

 

The Giants are invested in Manning for the next 6 or hopefully more seasons. Without a star talented receiver they won't get the job done without a marque receiver to help him out. If they were willing to give away all the draft picks it took to get Manning giving away one first rounder to give Manning a target is a bargain if you ask me. Especially when that bargain comes at NO COST other than what you gained from getting rid of Shockey.

 

All of what I have said though is based on the Shockey trade resulting in a #1 draft pick. If the Saints don't send the Giants their #1 pick in the 10 draft then no it is stupid to give up the only 10 #1 pick they have.

[BlueInCanada]

I dont see it happening, if it does so be it.

 

The only concern is if he turns out to be a bust...it sets us back.

 

But like I said I really dont see it happening since two things need to happen: 1. Vilma needs to resign. 2. No one else take him before us and from what I've read the Seahawks are shit crazy over him.

 

Although I do agree that if Plax doesnt return we need to get a #1 WR, maybe next years draft...it seems like every draft there is a WR who is "going to be something special"

[Lubeck]

I dont see it happening, if it does so be it.

 

The only concern is if he turns out to be a bust...it sets us back.

 

But like I said I really dont see it happening since two things need to happen: 1. Vilma needs to resign. 2. No one else take him before us and from what I've read the Seahawks are shit crazy over him.

 

Any draft choice carries the possibility of a bust. I have read and heard numerous people say he is as sure of a lock for NFL success as Calvin Johnson. He has the size, speed, and ability to succeed.

 

There is no chance he gets past the Hawks. They are desperately in need of a receiver and are in a prime position to get him. So #3 position (I don't know who that is) is the best chance to get him.

[fringe]

 

What more pressing concern is there? There is a less than 1% chance Plax is returning. With him the Giants were near unstoppable. Without him they were an average team. Bringing in a #1 receiver is the biggest need the team has IMHO.

i would rather trade picks or go FA for an established WR than crap shoot in the draft. we just haven't had much luck (or skill) developing receivers. we're much better at drafting line players.

[Allstarjim]

Lube, there is a problem with your theory. It is going to take more than this year's and next year's 1st round pick to move all the way up into the top 5 to grab Crabtree. It's just not happening. It's not about the player you would draft in the position, it's about the positions involved. moving up that high is going to simply cost more. At least two firsts AND this year's second, and maybe more. Even still, you would need a trade partner who is willing to drop all the way to the back end of the first round... a trade partner who will have to be a bad team with holes to fill. It's just not happening.

 

Secondly, this is alarmist thinking on your part. If you are so concerned with salary, doesn't it make more sense to stand pat and give a WR late first round money rather than top 5 money? We would have a hold out for sure, because I don't think the Giants will want to pay big money to a rookie WR this year when they have players like B-Jac to sign, etc.

 

Thirdly, there are talented receivers out there. At least wait until the combine before we crown his ass (Crabtree's). I think he will be a great player, but I think there are others that maybe a better fit... like Kenny Britt as you mentioned. The guy doesn't need to run a 4.3 40. He can run a 4.5 and still go up and get the ball. It's more about route running and getting off the ball anyways. Eli needs a big target. We still have little man burners... which, Manningham is as well, I should mention. We have no one on the roster that fills the position of "big target for Eli" at the WR position with Plax gone. I might consider drafting two big wideouts this year, one in the 2nd and one with my extra 5th.

 

Since you are all about speed, you should like Louis Murphy, a 6'2" guy who runs a 4.3. I think he could be a good pick although he's not quite as big as I want. If he were on a more pass happy team with less compareable talent around him (think Harvin), then he would probably have sick numbers.

 

Personally I think if Britt is around in the second we should take him, and sign a veteran receiver in free agency.

 

Assuming that the top tier guys are unavailabe (TJ Houshmanzadeh, Antonio Bryant) there are other intriguing options out there that could improve our WR corps like Justin McCareins or Reggie Williams. A signing of a mid-level guy like that, coupled with a draft pick or two, could help us.

 

I don't expect Toomer or Moss to be back (at least I hope not) and I think Plax will be in jail. Something that looks like this:

 

Kenny Britt

McCareins/Williams

Smith

Hixon

Manningham

Greg Carr in the 5th?

 

I think a corps like that makes Manning's life a whole lot easier and makes our offense much more dangerous than what we ended the season with.

 

One final word on Boldin. His contract has him as a Cardinal through the 2010 season. Under it, he will be paid $2.75 million next season, and $3 million in 2010. Why would AZ trade that player/contract away? It's not happening unless they get significant value in return. Boldin might hold out... but then they would just fine him every day. So that ain't happening. It is more realistic that they will give him a fairer deal than trade him away.

[fishgutmartyr]

Whoever we get needs gun safety courses, and bullet-proof long-johns. I haven't seen so many squad-members succumb to gunfire since the last time I saw "Band Of Brothers."