Virginia Giant Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Pete Rose - all time hits leader Barry Bonds - All time home run king, single season home run king Mark mcGuire - one time single season home run leader, first player to hit 70 home runs Sammy Sosa - The only person to hit 60+ home runs for 3 consecutive years Roger Clemens - One of the top (insert number here) pitchers of all time Alex Rodruiguex - Possibly the best power hitter of the last 50, 60 etc years. Will we be happy when the only player inducted to the hall of fame from this generation is Ken Griffey Jr? Look at that list, those are the best players most of us have ever seen touch a bat or a ball, and most, if not all of them, will never make it to the hall. I ask this, is the hall of fame a group of people who could play, or a group of people with high moral character? Because if it's the latter, i got me a whole list of guys who need to be kicked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 the worst part is that most of those guys were probably HOF guys w/o steroids. not sosa though, he was a nobody before he started juicing--maybe mcgwire too cuz he was always hurt and might not have gotten enough at bats if he wasn't juicing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lubeck Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think Arod has the best chance out of all of them. The accusations of juicing came at the end of the rest of those guys careers. Well not Rose but I am not going to lump him in with the juicers. The difference with Arod is he has the entire second half of his career to go out and perform while submitting to testing. Plus he didn't lie to Congress, pretend he couldn't speak English, or try and deny. In fact he went so far as to admit he used steroids in 03 and included 01 and 02 without any indication that he had been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeef2 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The difference with Arod is he has the entire second half of his career to go out and perform while submitting to testing. Once again, testing that doesn't include HGH, and since we know the guy has already cheated with other PEDs,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 I think Arod has the best chance out of all of them. The accusations of juicing came at the end of the rest of those guys careers. Well not Rose but I am not going to lump him in with the juicers. The difference with Arod is he has the entire second half of his career to go out and perform while submitting to testing. Plus he didn't lie to Congress, pretend he couldn't speak English, or try and deny. In fact he went so far as to admit he used steroids in 03 and included 01 and 02 without any indication that he had been. I read an article on si.com (I believe), thats where the thread comes from....the moral of the article was what was the baseball hall of fame about, great baseball players or great men. This is the list of players they had and once that sunk in that all but possibly one won't be in the hall, it shocked me. I can see not letting Rose in, what he very likely did is unthinkable. Honestly, I believe in 15 or 20 years there being a huge reversal in opinion and the same kind of stuff we now see on Rose, with people pleading to vote them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditto Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I read an article on si.com (I believe), thats where the thread comes from....the moral of the article was what was the baseball hall of fame about, great baseball players or great men. This is the list of players they had and once that sunk in that all but possibly one won't be in the hall, it shocked me. I can see not letting Rose in, what he very likely did is unthinkable. Honestly, I believe in 15 or 20 years there being a huge reversal in opinion and the same kind of stuff we now see on Rose, with people pleading to vote them in. Could be, but I don't know why you think that about Rose. He's the only one I'd let in. The thing is, if you don't let them in, what do you do with their numbers? As it stands now, Aaron and Maris still own their respective records. Incidentally, I'd also start removing the awards these players got, like Cy Young and MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxi-xxv Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Pete Rose was banned from the game for what he did as a manager. His success or lack thereof as a manager was not going to be the reason he was a Hofer. He was not a very good manager anyway. He was a damn good hitter and yes he disgraced the game as a manager, but as a player he was terrific and should be allowed in at this point, but never allowed near the game in any capacity other than as a spectator or commentator. I believe in light of all this roids bullshit we see now you are going to see a real campaign by many to let Pete in now. I heard him the other day on WFAn with Francesa and you can tell Francesa feels that way. As for the others. Arod will still get in. He has a lot of time to recover from this and will probably still put up the same numbers. If people want to ASSUME, because thats all it is is assuming that he uses HGH then we should assume all players do and not allow ANYONE in, simple as that. Again I am no AROD fan, but the man is a good player and IMO was doing what some speculate at one time 50% of the game was doing. Still does not make it right, but he has enough time to recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Bonds, Clemens and Rodriguez will get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plow Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Bonds, Clemens and Rodriguez will get in. I agree because when push comes to shove and you take out the years they allegedly did steroids, they are still HOFers. Arod at the moment has the best chance of the three because he has admitted to what he did (you don't have to believe him entirely but his story at least makes sense) and he still has 9 years left in his career. So technically, he will have had 13 years of his career when testing occurred to back up most of his story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Could be, but I don't know why you think that about Rose. He's the only one I'd let in. The thing is, if you don't let them in, what do you do with their numbers? As it stands now, Aaron and Maris still own their respective records. Incidentally, I'd also start removing the awards these players got, like Cy Young and MVP. I'd let them all in. Pete Rose was banned from the game for what he did as a manager. His success or lack thereof as a manager was not going to be the reason he was a Hofer. He was not a very good manager anyway. He was a damn good hitter and yes he disgraced the game as a manager, but as a player he was terrific and should be allowed in at this point, but never allowed near the game in any capacity other than as a spectator or commentator. I believe in light of all this roids bullshit we see now you are going to see a real campaign by many to let Pete in now. I heard him the other day on WFAn with Francesa and you can tell Francesa feels that way. As for the others. Arod will still get in. He has a lot of time to recover from this and will probably still put up the same numbers. If people want to ASSUME, because thats all it is is assuming that he uses HGH then we should assume all players do and not allow ANYONE in, simple as that. Again I am no AROD fan, but the man is a good player and IMO was doing what some speculate at one time 50% of the game was doing. Still does not make it right, but he has enough time to recover. I agree with that completely. I was just stating I can see an argument being made against Rose, without necessarily agreeing with it. Not sure i buy a huge outcry to let him in because of the roid era though, if anything, it solidifies his remaining out. The writers, Selig etc aren't going to take a hard stance on roids then let a person who has been banned from the game for 20 years back in, it would look hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 So, who would be the greatest "clean" player of our generation? Manny Ramirez seems to lead the hitters with...maybe Randy Johnson leading the hitters. Griffey, mrrm, guess so but his glory years were right before my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 assuming they are both clean i'd prob put pedro ahead of randy johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 So, who would be the greatest "clean" player of our generation? Manny Ramirez seems to lead the hitters with...maybe Randy Johnson leading the hitters. Griffey, mrrm, guess so but his glory years were right before my time. if you are sentencing the others on circumstantials such as: big drop off in production many injuries caused by tightened body why not griffey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 assuming they are both clean i'd prob put pedro ahead of randy johnson Not me, I think the Randy lost a lot more respect in the twighlight of his career than Pedro. Randy was hurt enough to not be effective, Pedro was just too hurt to pitch. In their hey day, Johnson was the most feared pitcher in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 i think only 4 players have had an era under 2.00 in the last 20 years. clemens, maddux, pedro and brown. i think pedro did it twice though and once was in the AL. that's what's most impressive to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sure it's impressive and he was a great pitcher and deserves to be in the Hall, but Randy is one average season away from 5,000 strikeouts. Teams would sit their stars so not to fuck up a hot spell or to not let him get in their heads. Players have said that they would start thinking about facing Randy several days before the game against him. Some players were flat out afraid to face him, not just because he was a little wild, but because he was good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sure it's impressive and he was a great pitcher and deserves to be in the Hall, but Randy is one average season away from 5,000 strikeouts. Teams would sit their stars so not to fuck up a hot spell or to not let him get in their heads. Players have said that they would start thinking about facing Randy several days before the game against him. Some players were flat out afraid to face him, not just because he was a little wild, but because he was good too. hey vg, i heard him interviewed at the giants fan fest. he credits nolan ryan with fixing his delivery when he was in montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 hey vg, i heard him interviewed at the giants fan fest. he credits nolan ryan with fixing his delivery when he was in montreal. I've heard that, maybe Nolan can work some of that magic in Arlington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Sure it's impressive and he was a great pitcher and deserves to be in the Hall, but Randy is one average season away from 5,000 strikeouts. Teams would sit their stars so not to fuck up a hot spell or to not let him get in their heads. Players have said that they would start thinking about facing Randy several days before the game against him. Some players were flat out afraid to face him, not just because he was a little wild, but because he was good too. johnson never had the kind of dominating stretch that pedro had from the mid-90's until his 2nd to last year in boston. the guy never had an era over 4.00 until he was 34 years old. he had an era of 1.74 and a whip of .73 one season--while pitching in the AL east during the yankee dynasty era. that's dead-ball era numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandolphScott Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 hey vg, i heard him interviewed at the giants fan fest. he credits nolan ryan with fixing his delivery when he was in montreal. That seems odd. It's like Anthony Young becoming a pitching guru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandolphScott Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 johnson never had the kind of dominating stretch that pedro had from the mid-90's until his 2nd to last year in boston. the guy never had an era over 4.00 until he was 34 years old. he had an era of 1.74 and a whip of .73 one season--while pitching in the AL east during the yankee dynasty era. that's dead-ball era numbers His last 2 seasons with the Mets screwed up his numbers big time. In 2005 I think he still had a 2.82 ERA too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 man i remember when anthony young went 3-30 during that two year stretch with the mets. the crazy party is his era was under 4.00 for those two years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Giant Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 johnson never had the kind of dominating stretch that pedro had from the mid-90's until his 2nd to last year in boston. the guy never had an era over 4.00 until he was 34 years old. he had an era of 1.74 and a whip of .73 one season--while pitching in the AL east during the yankee dynasty era. that's dead-ball era numbers First thought of each player.... Randy Johnson? Johmn Kruk scared for his life in that all star game Pedro? Throwing Zimmer to the turf. My case is rested. That seems odd. It's like Anthony Young becoming a pitching guru. Nolan was wild and walked tons of batters, but mechanically he was as good as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 he was scared for his life cuz johnson threw one over his head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 That seems odd. It's like Anthony Young becoming a pitching guru. not like that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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