Face it Met Fans

[mickeef2]

...but your closer is a choker, and that's gotta scare you if this is gonna be a post-season team.

[GorillaNJ]

Mets have not had a go to closer since Franco..... We have to count on the offense to carry us to victory tonight

[jranieli]

indeed, a blown save once in awhile isn't hard to handle but how many is enough? Didn't he go 11 scoreless innings before blowing this one tonight? I am satsified with almost every aspect with this team except the closer. Well he is no Braden Looper.

[Plax 4 Prez]

...but your closer is a choker, and that's gotta scare you if this is gonna be a post-season team.

HOW MUCH DO WE PAY THIS FUCKER? grrrrrr

[Plow]

i rag on him a bit, but honestly he's good enough. The real test will be how he handles the postseason, and no1 can tell that kind of stuff now. Foulke in 04 was shaky sometimes in the regular season, but was marvelous in the postseason.

[gateb]

He blew a save, big deal. Wagner's not that great but like Plow said he's a good closer. After the Yankees game he didn't give up a run until this outing. And I don't consider it choking in a Mets Reds game in mid June. If that's choking, then so is every other blown save. There are a lot of choke artists in the majors in that case then.

 

Lay off a little bit, we're overpaying him and he hasn't been performing but we'er going to get some nice streaks from him and a bad game from time to time. Hopefully that time won't be in the playoffs.

[Blader]

Gee ..I know you are a Sox fan but at least Wagner isn't 4 and 4 like one Mariano the Magnifico.

 

Reyes Wright Milledge are making us really suffer...duhhhh.

[mickeef2]

Foulke in 04 was shaky sometimes in the regular season, but was marvelous in the postseason.

 

And how often does that happen? Foulke wasn't really considered a choker before that. Armando Benitez has been shaky at times in the regular season, too, and he sucked in the postseason. It takes a special breed to succeed in those situations. Hoffman doesn't have it. Lidge doesn't have it. Gordon. Wagner has this reputation for a reason.

[Plow]

And how often does that happen? Foulke wasn't really considered a choker before that. Armando Benitez has been shaky at times in the regular season, too, and he sucked in the postseason. It takes a special breed to succeed in those situations. Hoffman doesn't have it. Lidge doesn't have it. Gordon. Wagner has this reputation for a reason.

 

 

oh so his 7 blown saves in 39 chances was just nothing at all in 2004

[mickeef2]

oh so his 7 blown saves in 39 chances was just nothing at all in 2004

 

First of all, if you take a look back at those blown saves, three of the first four were not really his fault (errors, inheriting runners at third, etc.). Did you bother to look at the fact that he had a 2.17 ERA that year (that's considered pretty good, Plow). He was also 3 for 3 in saves vs. the Yanks that year (the barometer for Sox fans), with a 1.50 ERA. Foulke was solid that year, and Sox fans had nowhere near the concern about him going into the post season that Met fans will have with Wagner this year. Bad example.

 

Edit: Just because it's you, Plow, I went back and checked. So far I've found his first two blown saves that year. #1 was a game they were winning 5-1, then Schilling and Embree got pounded and foulke inherited the tying run at third. He gave up a base hit, then later gave up a homer and lost. Not a great job, but not your typical 9th inning implosion, either. #2 was a total joke. Two outs in the ninth of a one-run game and he gives up a cheesy infield hit, then Manny drops a routine fly ball that should've been out #3 and the guy scores from first.

[fringe]

...but your closer is a choker, and that's gotta scare you if this is gonna be a post-season team.

I would love to have the met's problems right now. Closers are always overrated. Wagner is fine for the amount of games they'll need him, he'll come through. Mets are the best team in baseball this year.

[mickeef2]

I would love to have the met's problems right now. Closers are always overrated. Wagner is fine for the amount of games they'll need him, he'll come through. Mets are the best team in baseball this year.

 

I understand that, and I know they'll have no problem making the playoffs. I'm just predicting that he'll cost them big time at some point in October. There always comes a time for teams that win the World Series where they needed their closer to get crucial outs.

[Plax 4 Prez]

I understand that, and I know they'll have no problem making the playoffs. I'm just predicting that he'll cost them big time at some point in October. There always comes a time for teams that win the World Series where they needed their closer to get crucial outs.

Some people wake up in the playoffs, like for example Orlando Hernandez... I'm not worried right now about our close, I'm more worried about our team staying consitent

[xxi-xxv]

Did Foulke ever blow a post season save when with the A's ?

[fringe]

And how often does that happen? Foulke wasn't really considered a choker before that. Armando Benitez has been shaky at times in the regular season, too, and he sucked in the postseason. It takes a special breed to succeed in those situations. Hoffman doesn't have it. Lidge doesn't have it. Gordon. Wagner has this reputation for a reason.

like tonite

[Plow]

First of all, if you take a look back at those blown saves, three of the first four were not really his fault (errors, inheriting runners at third, etc.). Did you bother to look at the fact that he had a 2.17 ERA that year (that's considered pretty good, Plow). He was also 3 for 3 in saves vs. the Yanks that year (the barometer for Sox fans), with a 1.50 ERA. Foulke was solid that year, and Sox fans had nowhere near the concern about him going into the post season that Met fans will have with Wagner this year. Bad example.

 

Edit: Just because it's you, Plow, I went back and checked. So far I've found his first two blown saves that year. #1 was a game they were winning 5-1, then Schilling and Embree got pounded and foulke inherited the tying run at third. He gave up a base hit, then later gave up a homer and lost. Not a great job, but not your typical 9th inning implosion, either. #2 was a total joke. Two outs in the ninth of a one-run game and he gives up a cheesy infield hit, then Manny drops a routine fly ball that should've been out #3 and the guy scores from first.

 

thanks for proving my point. He blew 7 saves, in 39 chances, an awful rate, and yeah some were not all his fault, but some if you want to point them out and look at the whole picture, were definetly his fault. Yeah he had a good ERA too. But he posted a .64 ERA in 14 innings in the 2004 postseason. he saved 3 games, and blew one save but won the game against the cards, where it wasn't really a blown save. He pitched much, much better in the playoffs.

 

So lets see, wagner has blow 3 saves.

 

Here is the 9th inning against the Giants where Bonds hit a 3 run homer off of him.

 

Billy Wagner pitching for New York

B Wagner relieved D Sanchez.

O Vizquel singled to left.

J Vizcaino struck out swinging.

O Vizquel to second on fielder's indifference.

R Winn struck out swinging.

M Alou safe at second on throwing error by third baseman D Wright, O Vizquel scored.

B Bonds hit for S Finley.

B Bonds homered to left center, M Alou scored.

L Niekro struck out swinging.

 

Should have been out of the inning, right? So I guess it doesn't count according to your theory on closers

 

Now we go to the Yankees game, besides the fact that the yankees are great and can beat anyone at anytime, this was not Wagner's fault either. This wasn't a blown save, just his worst outing.

Willie was criticized for putting him in the game because it wasn't a save situation. It hurts his ERA

 

He has been good, and has a 2.60 ERA which according to you is good. You dont need to put up great numbers in the regular season to be a great postseason closer. Look at brad Lidge, he's supposedly unhitbale. Jenks was also shaky last year, but got the job done.

 

Yeah Wagner has not been successful in the postseason, his whole 4 and 2/3 innings he pitched there. I'll give him a real shot as an established closer before I say this is a problem for the Mets.

 

I hate to say it, but I dont see many flaws with the Mets as long as Glavine can stay strong, and their back end of the rotation can hold up. The only concern maybe can the bulpen not get tired. Idk they're in GREAT shape right now. Actually another concern may be that they wont play competitive baseball for a month going into the playoffs. They may be too far ahead for their own good.

[Plow]

Did Foulke ever blow a post season save when with the A's ?

 

yes, his only one in 2003

[mickeef2]

thanks for proving my point. He blew 7 saves, in 39 chances, an awful rate, and yeah some were not all his fault, but some if you want to point them out and look at the whole picture, were definetly his fault. Yeah he had a good ERA too. But he posted a .64 ERA in 14 innings in the 2004 postseason. he saved 3 games, and blew one save but won the game against the cards, where it wasn't really a blown save. He pitched much, much better in the playoffs.

 

So lets see, wagner has blow 3 saves.

 

Here is the 9th inning against the Giants where Bonds hit a 3 run homer off of him.

 

Billy Wagner pitching for New York

B Wagner relieved D Sanchez.

O Vizquel singled to left.

J Vizcaino struck out swinging.

O Vizquel to second on fielder's indifference.

R Winn struck out swinging.

M Alou safe at second on throwing error by third baseman D Wright, O Vizquel scored.

B Bonds hit for S Finley.

B Bonds homered to left center, M Alou scored.

L Niekro struck out swinging.

 

Should have been out of the inning, right? So I guess it doesn't count according to your theory on closers

 

Now we go to the Yankees game, besides the fact that the yankees are great and can beat anyone at anytime, this was not Wagner's fault either. This wasn't a blown save, just his worst outing.

Willie was criticized for putting him in the game because it wasn't a save situation. It hurts his ERA

 

He has been good, and has a 2.60 ERA which according to you is good. You dont need to put up great numbers in the regular season to be a great postseason closer. Look at brad Lidge, he's supposedly unhitbale. Jenks was also shaky last year, but got the job done.

 

Yeah Wagner has not been successful in the postseason, his whole 4 and 2/3 innings he pitched there. I'll give him a real shot as an established closer before I say this is a problem for the Mets.

 

I hate to say it, but I dont see many flaws with the Mets as long as Glavine can stay strong, and their back end of the rotation can hold up. The only concern maybe can the bulpen not get tired. Idk they're in GREAT shape right now. Actually another concern may be that they wont play competitive baseball for a month going into the playoffs. They may be too far ahead for their own good.

 

Yup, looks like I proved your point.

 

First of all, wagner's blown four saves, not three, which puts him on a pace for about 11 or so, which is a lot more than 7. So now he's off the hook for the Yankee game? Whatever you say, Plow. I'm sure Met fans are comforted knowing Plow thinks that one wasn't Wagner's fault. You also contradict yourself by saying, in one breath, how great the Yanks are (debatable) and they can do this to anybody, and in the next breath you say Randolph was criticized for putting him in (which is ludicrous, it was absolutely the right move). And his 2.60 ERA is through the end of June (almost). Let's wait until September to compare ERAs.

 

Regardless, we could go back and forth on this all day. The point is, as a Sox fan, I know Red Sox fans weren't concerned about Foulke going into that postseason. That's the bottom line. We knew his 7 blown saves weren't really an indicator of the way he'd pitched. To the contrary, I can guarantee you that Met fans will have their hearts in their throats when Wagner comes out of the pen in October.

[xxi-xxv]

Most Met fans trepidations in terms of Wagner have nothing to do with his ability and 98+ fastball, it has to do with the past and the thoughts of Franco, Bnitez, Looper.

 

BTW I cannot talk about "on pace" stuff. The Mets are on pace to win 105 games, Wright is on pace to drive in 144. Glavine is on pace for 25 wins. Will this all happen? Probably not. As far as Wagner goes, it will all be told in October. He could easily save 19 of 19 from hear on out and the Mets run away with the East and none of those saves will be in any pressure situations, IMO the jury is out until his next save in a big game, which with an 11 game lead, looks to be a few months away.

[Plow]

Yup, looks like I proved your point.

 

First of all, wagner's blown four saves, not three, which puts him on a pace for about 11 or so, which is a lot more than 7. So now he's off the hook for the Yankee game? Whatever you say, Plow. I'm sure Met fans are comforted knowing Plow thinks that one wasn't Wagner's fault. You also contradict yourself by saying, in one breath, how great the Yanks are (debatable) and they can do this to anybody, and in the next breath you say Randolph was criticized for putting him in (which is ludicrous, it was absolutely the right move). And his 2.60 ERA is through the end of June (almost). Let's wait until September to compare ERAs.

 

Regardless, we could go back and forth on this all day. The point is, as a Sox fan, I know Red Sox fans weren't concerned about Foulke going into that postseason. That's the bottom line. We knew his 7 blown saves weren't really an indicator of the way he'd pitched. To the contrary, I can guarantee you that Met fans will have their hearts in their throats when Wagner comes out of the pen in October.

 

so exactly whats the differnce between wagner's numbers now and foulke's in 04 again?

 

i only use foulke as an example b/c i know ur a red sox fan.

[mickeef2]

BTW I cannot talk about "on pace" stuff.

 

He could easily save 19 of 19 from hear on out...

 

I guess you don't talk about "on pace" stuff for the same reason I don't talk about "could easily" stuff. I don't actually think Wagner could "easily" save his next 19, since he's already blown four of his first 18. It would seem to be anything but easy for him to get through the next 19 without a blown save.

[mickeef2]

so exactly whats the differnce between wagner's numbers now and foulke's in 04 again?

 

i only use foulke as an example b/c i know ur a red sox fan.

 

Yeah, but I'm telling you Foulke is a bad example because Sox fans weren't worried about him going into that post season.

 

As for the difference between their numbers, about a half a run and, at this point in Foulke's '04 season, about 3 less blown saves (and again, he didn't blow four run leads, and pitched great against the Yankees the entire season- one of the reasons Sox fans weren't worried).

[xxi-xxv]

I guess you don't talk about "on pace" stuff for the same reason I don't talk about "could easily" stuff. I don't actually think Wagner could "easily" save his next 19, since he's already blown four of his first 18. It would seem to be anything but easy for him to get through the next 19 without a blown save.

 

You are aware of the fact that Wagner has gone many many games in a row in his career without blowing a save correct? I believe last year he went more than 19 at one point. 19 was the # I chose because thats what Benitez did in 99 or 00(not sure) and that meant dick come October of both years.

 

My guess is as the pressure gets less and the lead gets bigger Wagner will pad those save stats. IMO it means shit until October though.

[gateb]

thanks for proving my point. He blew 7 saves, in 39 chances, an awful rate, and yeah some were not all his fault, but some if you want to point them out and look at the whole picture, were definetly his fault. Yeah he had a good ERA too. But he posted a .64 ERA in 14 innings in the 2004 postseason. he saved 3 games, and blew one save but won the game against the cards, where it wasn't really a blown save. He pitched much, much better in the playoffs.

 

So lets see, wagner has blow 3 saves.

 

Here is the 9th inning against the Giants where Bonds hit a 3 run homer off of him.

 

Billy Wagner pitching for New York

B Wagner relieved D Sanchez.

O Vizquel singled to left.

J Vizcaino struck out swinging.

O Vizquel to second on fielder's indifference.

R Winn struck out swinging.

M Alou safe at second on throwing error by third baseman D Wright, O Vizquel scored.

B Bonds hit for S Finley.

B Bonds homered to left center, M Alou scored.

L Niekro struck out swinging.

 

Should have been out of the inning, right? So I guess it doesn't count according to your theory on closers

 

Now we go to the Yankees game, besides the fact that the yankees are great and can beat anyone at anytime, this was not Wagner's fault either. This wasn't a blown save, just his worst outing.

Willie was criticized for putting him in the game because it wasn't a save situation. It hurts his ERA

 

He has been good, and has a 2.60 ERA which according to you is good. You dont need to put up great numbers in the regular season to be a great postseason closer. Look at brad Lidge, he's supposedly unhitbale. Jenks was also shaky last year, but got the job done.

 

Yeah Wagner has not been successful in the postseason, his whole 4 and 2/3 innings he pitched there. I'll give him a real shot as an established closer before I say this is a problem for the Mets.

 

I hate to say it, but I dont see many flaws with the Mets as long as Glavine can stay strong, and their back end of the rotation can hold up. The only concern maybe can the bulpen not get tired. Idk they're in GREAT shape right now. Actually another concern may be that they wont play competitive baseball for a month going into the playoffs. They may be too far ahead for their own good.

Our bullpen may have taken a big blow with Duaner coming out early yesterday

[xxi-xxv]

Yeah, but I'm telling you Foulke is a bad example because Sox fans weren't worried about him going into that post season.

 

As for the difference between their numbers, about a half a run and, at this point in Foulke's '04 season, about 3 less blown saves (and again, he didn't blow four run leads, and pitched great against the Yankees the entire season- one of the reasons Sox fans weren't worried).

 

I bet Stros fans were not worried about Lidge last year either come October. As for the Yanks, Wagner also closed them out 1 2 3 in a tight game the night before, so in reality I can honestly say I do not know.

 

I am not 100% confident in Wagner, he was not my first choice by any means to be the closer. Maybe the whole idea of a guy "needing time in NY" is the case? I do not buy it that much, but if you look at CLemens in 99, Arod in 04, Beltran in 05, etc maybe that thought does hold some merit. Not sure, but for better or worse this guy is the closer and I guess its better than Looper or Benitez.