Round 2 and 3

[parlintm]

I think there's a general consensus among board members regarding the first round pick and who it should be. I think most of us expect to draft Carpenter, Greenway or Ryans in the first. If you think its someobody else, I dont want to hear it. I want to hear who people like in the 2nd and 3rd. As for me, just take a look at my mock.

 

Round 2: Demetrius Williams - This guy is talented and a phenomenal deep threat. He's got the potential to be a #1 WR so he could potentially replace Toomer in a few years. Im not quite sold on this pick yet and am open to other suggestions.

 

Round 3: Dusty Dvoacek - He's a super talented DT but will drop in the draft because of off the field issues. He's had numerous incidents with fighting and alcohol but I've read that he's stayed out of trouble lately. This guy is just as big as bunkley and only a fraction slower. He's plays with a constant motor and intensity that the Giants could use in the middle of their line. I also read that he had one of the highest Wonderlic tests out of everyone in the draft and was an honor student. Personally, I think he's a steal here and Id be willing to take him in the second.

[NeMesiS]

WR is not a pressing need right now.

[parlintm]

WR is not a pressing need right now.

 

I'm not drafting the need, Im drafting the player. Although I think WR is a greater need than most... but I'm open to changing this pick. I just want to hear some other options that people like. Also, what do you think of they Dusty pick?

[gmenroc]

Claude Wroten was my original pick for the second round, but his stock has risen steadily and he probably won't be there. I'm also intrigued by Rodirique Wright, although his taking plays off here and there is rather disconcerning. Regardless, I feel DT is the way to go.

 

3rd round I have slated for another CB. I was thinking along the lines of Anwar Phillips or Will Blackmon.

 

I don't have a WR until round 4, and there I'm thinking Cory Rodgers, Devin Aromashodu, or Brandon Marshall

[Storm]

I'm not drafting the need, Im drafting the player. Although I think WR is a greater need than most... but I'm open to changing this pick. I just want to hear some other options that people like. Also, what do you think of they Dusty pick?

 

I completely agree, WR is a LOT more pressing need than people seem to think. We have two mediocre starters and no one proven to play slot. If a top tier WR is available at 25 I sure as hell hope the Giants don't pass him up.

[parlintm]

I completely agree, WR is a LOT more pressing need than people seem to think. We have two mediocre starters and no one proven to play slot. If a top tier WR is available at 25 I sure as hell hope the Giants don't pass him up.

 

The only two WR's that I would take at 25 are Jackson and Holmes, neither of which will be there for us. As other have mentioned, Id like to draft a DT in the second round as well. The thing is, I think that we can get almost equal value in the 3rd on DT. For example, I dont think there's much of an upgrade from Wright (2nd rounder) to Dvoracek (3rd Rounder).

 

I saw Williams play quite a bit (used to live out in the Northwest) and he's a VERY talented receiver. I rank him as the third best receiving prospect in the draft after Jackson and Holmes and would love to see him as a Giant.

[parlintm]

Here's a list of guys I like in the second round, let me know what you think:

 

Claude Wroten DT - doubt hes left for us

John Mcargo DT - Same

Cedric Griffin CB - Would love for him to drop to us

Daryn Colledge OT - This guy has got all the potential to be a solid LT, just needs some work on run blocking.

Darnell Bing S - For some reason this guy keeps dropping. Playmaker worth taking in the second.

Jon Alston OLB - Might be a bit high for him but hes a phenomenal athlete (money posted a cool stat regarding the combine and he was near the top of the list with guys like Vernon Davis and Manny Lawson) and he went to Stanford so hes smart as hell too. Only knock is that hes a bit short -- Tatupa showed us what that means.

Demetrius Williams WR - Great deep threat. Very difficult to cover 1 on 1. Would thrive in an offense where all the attention is on Plax, Shock and Tiki. Is good enough to replace Toomer down the road. With a red zone offense of Toomer, Plax and Williams (all tall receivers who can go up and get the ball) with Shockey and Tiki... we would be pretty much unstoppable.

 

Some players that I want to stay away from:

 

Orien Harris DT - Too many injuries. I think that hes been overrated because of the U.

Rod Wright DT - Too high of a bust factor for me.

 

If we land any of the guys on my first list, Ill be thrilled. I think all of those guys could contribute in some capacity this year and would instantly make our team better with the exception of Colledge who is probably a year or two away from being a starting LT.

[Barens]

First, I completely agree with the 2 players you'd stay away from, and I'd also like to add OT Jeremy Trueblood to that list, at least for first day picks. Orien Harris I wouldn't completely stay away from, but again, only if he falls into the 4th round. I think he can actually be a solid, but not spectacular player.

 

Demetrius Williams I happen to like, but I think he's a bit of a reach for our second round pick, and I still don't know why you consider WR such a great need. We've got plenty of depth right now, plus, it's a fairly weak WR draft class. I think ifhe'savailable in the 3rd, then he'd be a good option, but IMO, there will be better options in the 2nd round.

 

I do like your other options and I would like to add 2 more...Brian Calhoun, RB Wisconson and Joseph Addie, RB LSU. Who knows if they'll still be around in the 2nd, but I think either would be an excellent addition to the offense. Both are speedy RB's, who excel at catching the ball out of the backfield, and either would work well splitting carries with Brandon Jacobs in the future, and maybe even insurance in case Barber gets injured.

[parlintm]

First, I completely agree with the 2 players you'd stay away from, and I'd also like to add OT Jeremy Trueblood to that list, at least for first day picks. Orien Harris I wouldn't completely stay away from, but again, only if he falls into the 4th round. I think he can actually be a solid, but not spectacular player.

 

Demetrius Williams I happen to like, but I think he's a bit of a reach for our second round pick, and I still don't know why you consider WR such a great need. We've got plenty of depth right now, plus, it's a fairly weak WR draft class. I think ifhe'savailable in the 3rd, then he'd be a good option, but IMO, there will be better options in the 2nd round.

 

I do like your other options and I would like to add 2 more...Brian Calhoun, RB Wisconson and Joseph Addie, RB LSU. Who knows if they'll still be around in the 2nd, but I think either would be an excellent addition to the offense. Both are speedy RB's, who excel at catching the ball out of the backfield, and either would work well splitting carries with Brandon Jacobs in the future, and maybe even insurance in case Barber gets injured.

 

Do you mean add Trueblood to the list of 2nd rounders that you like? If so I agree with that. As for RB, I dont like Calhoun. He's too small and weak for me. Addai, I like but I think next year is the year to draft a RB. I still think we should give Ward and Jacobs another year as backups before we decide that we need a new franchise RB.

 

As for the WR need, I dont want to get into this discussion again but Ill just sum up my thoughts on this one. 1. I dont think we can rely on Toomer to play 16+ games again this year.

2. Our slot receivers are Toomer/Carter. Combined they have 1 career TD and about 400 receiving yards. Neither of them has shown enough to be counted on as a legit #2 WR if Toomer or Plax gets injured or even the abiliity to be a decent, consistent slot receiver. We dont need something fancy here, just a little consistency.

3. Bringing in a talented rookie ensures some quality competition for the slot receiving position in training camp. Since Carter or Taylor has gotten injured every year, we need some new blood.

4. If Plax gets benched for some reason (not out of the question given his relationship w/ Coughlin) we need someone to step up and I dont want to rely on the Taylor/Carter duo.

5. Toomer will likely retire after this year or the next and we don't have anybody on the roster to replace him.

 

I dont rank WR ahead or OLB or DT in terms of need, I just think that we can get good value by drafting someone in either the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

That said, I'm not terribly attached to this pick and would be happy to draft someone like Orr in the fourth. I just think we need another WR for the aforementioned reasons.

[Barens]

Do you mean add Trueblood to the list of 2nd rounders that you like? If so I agree with that. As for RB, I dont like Calhoun. He's too small and weak for me. Addai, I like but I think next year is the year to draft a RB. I still think we should give Ward and Jacobs another year as backups before we decide that we need a new franchise RB.

 

As for the WR need, I dont want to get into this discussion again but Ill just sum up my thoughts on this one. 1. I dont think we can rely on Toomer to play 16+ games again this year.

2. Our slot receivers are Toomer/Carter. Combined they have 1 career TD and about 400 receiving yards. Neither of them has shown enough to be counted on as a legit #2 WR if Toomer or Plax gets injured or even the abiliity to be a decent, consistent slot receiver. We dont need something fancy here, just a little consistency.

3. Bringing in a talented rookie ensures some quality competition for the slot receiving position in training camp. Since Carter or Taylor has gotten injured every year, we need some new blood.

4. If Plax gets benched for some reason (not out of the question given his relationship w/ Coughlin) we need someone to step up and I dont want to rely on the Taylor/Carter duo.

5. Toomer will likely retire after this year or the next and we don't have anybody on the roster to replace him.

 

I dont rank WR ahead or OLB or DT in terms of need, I just think that we can get good value by drafting someone in either the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

That said, I'm not terribly attached to this pick and would be happy to draft someone like Orr in the fourth. I just think we need another WR for the aforementioned reasons.

 

Trueblood is a prospect I'd actually rather stay away from...he had trouble with many of the defensive prospects during the Senior Bowl weak, and I just don't think he's a good left tackle prospect.

 

Calhoun, I completely disagree with you here. He's got average to below average size for a running back, but how does that make him weak? I think he can be an explosive player, and his speed out of the backfield could be a huge boost to the offense.

 

After Toomer and Plax, we still have Carter, a supposed healthier Taylor, and Tyree. And while they don't have the stats to predict any kind of breakout season, I think they certainly can be capable if thrusted into a starting role. As much as I like Jacobs, I'd rather be more insured if Barber went down, than if Plax or Toomer went down with an injury.

[HOUND]

Here's a list of guys I like in the second round, let me know what you think:

 

Claude Wroten DT - doubt hes left for us

John Mcargo DT - Same

Cedric Griffin CB - Would love for him to drop to us

Daryn Colledge OT - This guy has got all the potential to be a solid LT, just needs some work on run blocking.

Darnell Bing S - For some reason this guy keeps dropping. Playmaker worth taking in the second.

Jon Alston OLB - Might be a bit high for him but hes a phenomenal athlete (money posted a cool stat regarding the combine and he was near the top of the list with guys like Vernon Davis and Manny Lawson) and he went to Stanford so hes smart as hell too. Only knock is that hes a bit short -- Tatupa showed us what that means.

Demetrius Williams WR - Great deep threat. Very difficult to cover 1 on 1. Would thrive in an offense where all the attention is on Plax, Shock and Tiki. Is good enough to replace Toomer down the road. With a red zone offense of Toomer, Plax and Williams (all tall receivers who can go up and get the ball) with Shockey and Tiki... we would be pretty much unstoppable.

 

Some players that I want to stay away from:

 

Orien Harris DT - Too many injuries. I think that hes been overrated because of the U.

Rod Wright DT - Too high of a bust factor for me.

 

If we land any of the guys on my first list, Ill be thrilled. I think all of those guys could contribute in some capacity this year and would instantly make our team better with the exception of Colledge who is probably a year or two away from being a starting LT.

 

Of the players you listed, the only one's I'm interested in in round 2 are Bing and Colledge. I don't dislike Demetrius Williams but I don't think we need to go WR in round 2 and I also think he might be available in round three. If not a similar talent, like Martin Nance or a boom/bust guy like Brandon Marshall are options in round 3.

 

As for round 2 I've got my eye on:

CB Kelly Jennings

CB Jonathan Joseph

CB Richard Marshall

S Daniel Bullocks

S Ko Simpson

OT Jonathan Scott

LB Abdul Hodge

DT Rod Wright - yeah the bust factor is high but so is the potential. This guy was likely the top rated DT going into his senior season. He'll need some coaching but he could pay big dividends at a need position for us.

 

I don't expect a few of these guys to be available when we pick but every year there are guys who slip into the picture that you never expect. I don't feel that any of the players listed have no chance at being there at 56.

[parlintm]

Of the players you listed, the only one's I'm interested in in round 2 are Bing and Colledge. I don't dislike Demetrius Williams but I don't think we need to go WR in round 2 and I also think he might be available in round three. If not a similar talent, like Martin Nance or a boom/bust guy like Brandon Marshall are options in round 3.

 

As for round 2 I've got my eye on:

CB Kelly Jennings

CB Jonathan Joseph

CB Richard Marshall

S Daniel Bullocks

S Ko Simpson

OT Jonathan Scott

LB Abdul Hodge

DT Rod Wright - yeah the bust factor is high but so is the potential. This guy was likely the top rated DT going into his senior season. He'll need some coaching but he could pay big dividends at a need position for us.

 

I don't expect a few of these guys to be available when we pick but every year there are guys who slip into the picture that you never expect. I don't feel that any of the players listed have no chance at being there at 56.

 

I like all of those CB's but none of them are going to fall to us. No chance. Check out the latest nflcountdown mock (i think the best draft site) and they have all three of those guys going in the 1st round. It's just not going to happen.

 

The safeties might be available, but that's one of our deepest positions and I think we can find just as talented players at position of need.

 

I like Abdul Hodge but Id rather have Alston since he played OLB.

 

Id be fine w/ Jonathon Scott, but not my favorite.

 

As for Rod Wright -- Id MUCH rather have Dvoacek in the 3rd than Wright in the second. If we had to take a DT in this round Id take Dvoracek over Wright.

 

So out of those id really only be happy with Abdul Hodge.

[Money]

Bing is gonna slide on draft day. Very overrated.

 

I hope the Giants steer clear of Wright. Remember, if they are looking for a guy to start and play the 1-technique, then they are targetting skilled run-stuffers who can handle double-teams (i.e. Ngata, Watson).

 

I'm not big on Demetrius Williams, although he did abuse Richard Marshall. Pac-10 WRs are bad news more often than not.

 

With Wilson, Demps, and Butler, I doubt safety is on the 1st day radar, barring the availability of, say, Whitner/Allen in the 2nd or Simpson/Bullocks in the 3rd.

[parlintm]

I'm not big on Demetrius Williams, although he did abuse Richard Marshall. Pac-10 WRs are bad news more often than not.

 

Im like Williams but dont necessarily think he's the player to take in the 2nd... I just needed to fill someone in on my mock draft. Last fall I was living in Southern Washington and saw a ton of Oregon games since they had a great offense and were on TV all the time. Williams just dominated the CB's he faced and required opposing defenses to double team him constantly. He also made some ridiculous catches where he would just steal the ball out of the air. I was very impressed with his play and think hes going to be a great receiver, although as you said he did face Pac 10 competition so who knows.

 

At the very least he would provide great WR depth and I think he would have a great chance to beat out Carter/Taylor for the third spot.

 

If available, Id take these guys over him:

Wroten, Mcargo, Griffen and Alston

[HOUND]

McCargo's stock is inflated due to the amazing talent that bookended him at NC State. I hate the thought of paying a heavy price for him.

 

If we're talking run stuffers, then I'd add Babatunde Oshinowo of Stanford to the mix. He's more of a nosetackle type but is a big body that will pay nice dividends in the run game. I tend to think 2nd round is a bit early for him but that being said I still don't think he'd dissapoint, although he's a better fit for a 3-4.

 

I could care less what NFL draftcountdown's mock says. It's a mock. There's no guarantee on anything it's predicting. I tend to agree that I included some longshots in my player pool but every year unexpected guys fall. I bet there are names out there that we'll be able to choose from that nobody has even considered. Happens every year.

 

I think Hodge brings more to the table than Alston. I agree we have a greater depth need on the outside but we also need a backup to Pierce. Hodge would fill that role nicely.

[Money]

Alston is one of the best athletes in the draft. He'd be a tremendous pick for us at 56. Top explosiveness, great productivity (16 sacks his junior and senior year), and very smart as well.

[parlintm]

Hound, I understand that its just a mock but the general consesus is that these guys will all be gone by early 2nd round. If one of them does drop to us, as I said earlier, I think it would be a great pick. For some reason I think Griffin is being underrated and I think he's one of the most pro-ready corners in the draft. I think he should be talked about in this group but for some reason isnt. I think it has to do w/ moving away from big, physical corners... who knows.

 

As for Oshinowo, I like him a lot and think he would be a great 4-5 round pick.

 

Alston vs. Hodge - I think they're very comparable players. Both can hit like a mofo yet they make intelligent decisions on the field. I think Alston's a tad more athletic but it just comes down to your preference, ouside or inside. IMO, Blackburn is a servicable backup and Id rather add the depth to the outside. But as I said before, Id love to land Hodge in the second round.

 

I think this is a good time to bring up another point that Id been thinking about, not directed at anyone... just a general comment that I have. I find that people will say something like, "I really like Dick Cheney at nose tackle but the mocks say that third is a little early for him. I think we should wait until the fourth round to get him." If the player is good but you think that he will be available based on some internet ranking then stick to your guns and say that you want that player because if the guy is talented, come draft day he will get picked in the position that he lies on the NFL Big Boards, not the internets. An example of this was a couple of weeks ago when everyone wanted to stick Brandon Johnson in their mock draft but because he wasnt ranked too highly on the internet everyone was putting him in round 6 or 7. Money on the other hand realized that he was clearly not a 6th or 7th rounder and took him in the fourth on his mock.

 

My example of this is Dvoracek, not to pound table about this guy or anything. All the mocks that I see have him going in the 4th but I guarantee he doesnt last that long come draft day. This guy is big, fast, smart and plays as hard as anyone. He had some off-field issues a few years ago and the mock drafts dont know how to account for this so they just drop him to the 4th. I think he's a second round talent that Im hoping drops to us in the third.

[HOUND]

I tend to think Dvoracek won't be there when we pick in the 4th either. He's responded well since his off field stuff and his talent is definitely first day caliber.

 

I tend to agree you can make an argument for both Alston and Hodge. Alston is definitely the headier player. He has better coverage skills too. Hodge is the better tackler and works through traffic much better. Alston is the more well rounded prospect but Hodge IMHO is the far better run defender. I will agree that if we didn't go LB early then Alston makes more sense to address the outside deficiencies. Hodge projects as solid depth behind Pierce and a Special Teams contributor.

 

 

I think the complaint Armstead makes here is valid. Too many sources, especially ones that do mocks, rank players to make thier mock projections appear accurate.

 

When it comes down to it, there really isn't such as thing as "taking a guy too early". If a team latches on to a player who ends up being a contributor and said player was a projected 5th rounder but the club took him in the 3rd did they make a mistake? I tend to say no. Of course there's no way to rate this at the time of the draft so everything really is conjecture. If we couldn't speculate, what really would there be to talk about?

[Money]

Alston is way more athletic than Hodge. No comparison.

 

Hodge

 

4.66 40-time

25 reps

1.62 10-yard

2.75 20-yard

31 vertical

9-0 broad jump

4.30 short shuttle

7.09 3-cone

22 wonderlic

 

Alston

 

4.40 40-time

30 reps

1.53 10-yard

2.54 20-yard

40-inch vertical

11-0 broad jump

4.13 short shuttle

6.90 3-cone

30 wonderlic

[parlintm]

I tend to think Dvoracek won't be there when we pick in the 4th either. He's responded well since his off field stuff and his talent is definitely first day caliber.

 

I tend to agree you can make an argument for both Alston and Hodge. Alston is definitely the headier player. He has better coverage skills too. Hodge is the better tackler and works through traffic much better. Alston is the more well rounded prospect but Hodge IMHO is the far better run defender. I will agree that if we didn't go LB early then Alston makes more sense to address the outside deficiencies. Hodge projects as solid depth behind Pierce and a Special Teams contributor.

I think the complaint Armstead makes here is valid. Too many sources, especially ones that do mocks, rank players to make thier mock projections appear accurate.

 

When it comes down to it, there really isn't such as thing as "taking a guy too early". If a team latches on to a player who ends up being a contributor and said player was a projected 5th rounder but the club took him in the 3rd did they make a mistake? I tend to say no. Of course there's no way to rate this at the time of the draft so everything really is conjecture. If we couldn't speculate, what really would there be to talk about?

 

You know what would be fun and I'm going to do it soon, is come up w/ a Big Board for the first 5 rounds or so. I cant do it now since I've got a marketing project due tomorrow and I've been procrastinating all day. This way it would help us project where people will actully get drafted. Well since this idea sounds way better than starting marketing, Ill do my first 32 players as an example and post it when I finish.

[parlintm]

Alston

 

4.40 40-time

30 reps

1.53 10-yard

2.54 20-yard

40-inch vertical

11-0 broad jump

4.13 short shuttle

6.90 3-cone

30 wonderlic

 

Those are just phenomenal numbers across the board. 40 inch vertical!!! Thats just ridiculous. For reference, when they measure verticals during the NBA dunk contest, anything above 40 is amazing and most of the guys have like 36 inch verts, and these are the guys in the dunk contest.

 

Money, do you have that list where they combined the times/reps/vert to get an overall score? The one w/ Lawson, Davis and Alston on it? For those who don't understand how good these numbers are, I think that might help.

[BigPete]

We don't need a WR

 

I expect we will sign Ricky Proehl as a cheap veteran who can play an important role on the team

 

We are likely to have 6 WRs on the roster

 

Thats would give us

 

Plaxico Burress

Amani Toomer

Ricky Proehl

David Tyree

Tim Carter

Jamaar Taylor

 

 

any drafted WR would have to beat out Tim Carter or Jamaar Taylor in training camp for a roster spot

 

Both Carter and Taylor have good potential and can stretch the field and make plays, both are cheap, both are healthy and both have the benefit of being in the Giants system for some time.

 

I don't think a rookie WR would realistically beat either Carter or Taylor for a roster spot (remember training camp is about performances on the field).

[Money]

Those are just phenomenal numbers across the board. 40 inch vertical!!! Thats just ridiculous. For reference, when they measure verticals during the NBA dunk contest, anything above 40 is amazing and most of the guys have like 36 inch verts, and these are the guys in the dunk contest.

 

Money, do you have that list where they combined the times/reps/vert to get an overall score? The one w/ Lawson, Davis and Alston on it? For those who don't understand how good these numbers are, I think that might help.

 

I could find it. Pat Kirwin wrote an article on NFL.com recently about it. Alston's combined score of 81 is incredible. A 70 is considered to be awesome explosion.

[BigPete]

Alston is way more athletic than Hodge. No comparison.

 

Hodge

 

4.66 40-time

25 reps

1.62 10-yard

2.75 20-yard

31 vertical

9-0 broad jump

4.30 short shuttle

7.09 3-cone

22 wonderlic

 

Alston

 

4.40 40-time

30 reps

1.53 10-yard

2.54 20-yard

40-inch vertical

11-0 broad jump

4.13 short shuttle

6.90 3-cone

30 wonderlic

 

I like Alston alot, but I think it is tough comparing a blue collar MLB with the athleticism of an athletic undersized WLB

[parlintm]

Here's that article. Thanks Money for pointing me in the right direction. It's a good read. I just noticed my boy Dusty is up on that list. Im officially going to change my second round pick (from Demetrius who I wasnt thrilled with and nobody else seems to like) to Alston, a guy I've liked for a while so that all three of my picks have made the list.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200