Yankees will win AL East

[fringe]

right on all parts, what I meant by hanging is that it just doesnt that devastating drop it used to so it looks like its a hanger compared to what it used to be...bottom line, its a very tattooable pitch now.

yup- he's also getting behind in the count which is probably due to less confidence because of above reasons. sigh.....

[gateb]

I guess you arent aware that Ive lived in New York City (mostly in Manhattan) my entire life and have many good friends who are Mets fans that I see on a regualr basis and believe or not, I watch alot of Mets games with them. Ive seen Oliver Perez pitch at least 10 times this season. And as I already said, he has good stuff, just no control and his mechanics are awful. I dont know what youre talking about when you say that his sliders can be thrown anywhere in the strike zone. His command is atrocious. If he were to get with a pitching coach who could get him to perform correctly, he'sdbe a really good pitcher. The guy almost falls down after every pitch, his body is all over the place. he will continue to have rollercoaster seasons if he doesnt fix his mechanics...therefore in the long run, his numbers will reflect what his career numbers are up to this point. If you think that averaging 110 pitches per 7 innings isnt a problen then you dont know anything about baseball, or more specifically pitching. And Id say a guy that throws 110 pitches every 7 innings is very lucky to have a 2.84 ERA

 

John Maine was highly regarded, the Orioles are just retarded. I said it from day one to all my mets fan friends that they were getting a diamond in the rough with Maine and he was the guy who was the real chip in the deal. Seriously, use your brain, if youre the Orioles, (well bad example cause theyre morons) would you send a minor leaguer out there at the end of the season every 5 days because you didnt think he was a legit prospect? Come on. He didnt do well, even though he showed good stuff and the moronic Orioles gave up on him, but to say he was never a highly touted prospect is pretty ignorant.

And Barry Zito had many fine seasons without Rick. He just sucks in San Fran, he lost velocity on his fast ball and his once great curveball has been hanging more than its been biting.

Control isn't Perez's strength but to say he has none is dumb. And yes, he can throw sliders anywhere to any given hitter. He can throw that sharp biting slider down and in the dirt to the right handed hitter, or make a beautiful backdoor pitch with late movement that'll catch the corner. His sliders to lefties are just as devastating, and have been an integral part of his .200 average pitching to lefties.

 

Randy Johnson's mechanics aren't exactly the most graceful thing either. Moises Alou has hitting mechanics that would drive any hitting coach crazy but it inexplicably works. Point is, Perez may have a bit abnormal mechanics (i dont even think they are that bad) but some pitchers and hitters do it different ways but still make it work.

 

Wants to get with a pitching coach that'll make him perform correctly? Huh? What beef do you have with Rick Peterson, it's clear that he is one of the most brilliant pitching minds in baseball. Is it that hard to admit? Perez always had the stuff but Rick clearly taught him something that has helped him with his confidence, control, and pitch sequences too.

 

I can't believe I'm wasting my time doing this but here it goes... your comment with Perez averaging 110 pitches per 7 innings was wrong so I'm here to break it down for you. Here's every outing with IP and total pitches that he's had this year.

 

7 IP 82 pitches

2.2 IP 73 pitches

6.2 IP 98 pitches

7 IP 120 pitches

5.1 IP 98 pitches

4.2 IP 84 pitches

8.1 IP 109 pitches

7.2 IP 108 pitches

7 IP 102 pitches

7 IP 98 pitches

7 IP 103 pitches

5 IP 106 pitches

7.1 IP 111 pitches

5.1 IP 92 pitches

6.1 IP 103 pitches

6 IP 95 pitches

7.1 IP 103 pitches

6 IP 99 pitches

 

Add the pitches together and divide them by IP, then multiply by 7 you get roughly 103 pitches per 7 innings. So that point is moot too, I'll take those stats. Also, Perez gets stronger in the late innings, his fastball stays up in velocity and his off speed pitches maintain their movement. While John Maine is the ace of our staff, I believe that PErez is the guy I'd want out there to get 7+.

 

I'm not even going to get into the tough luck he's been involved in with fielding and his impressive starts he's had in big games. 5-0 against the Braves and Yankees, needless to say that is very good.

 

Regarding John Maine, maybe he was put in to pitch in the late months of seasons because the Orioles were done and wanted to test out some new arms that they weren't really sure about. I don't completely doubt that at one point Maine was a highly touted guy, but I'd never heard that he was supposed to be good, hence the reason he was a throw-in. Here's something I found when googling his scouting report:

 

Monday, May 10, 2004

 

 

By John Sickels

Special to ESPN.com

 

John Maine

Baltimore Orioles

Position: RHP Height: 6-4 Weight: 190 Born: 5/8/81 Bats: Right Throws: Right

 

 

 

 

Year Team Level G GS IP H R ER HR BB SO W-L SV ERA

2002 Aberdeen A 4 2 10.1 6 2 2 0 3 21 1-1 0 1.74

Delmarva A 6 5 33.0 21 8 5 0 4 39 1-1 0 1.36

2003 Delmarva A 14 14 76.1 43 16 13 1 18 108 7-3 0 1.53

Frederick A 12 12 70.1 48 27 24 5 20 77 6-1 0 3.07

2004 Bowie AA 5 5 28.0 16 8 7 1 7 34 4-0 0 2.25

Ottawa AAA 1 1 5.0 4 2 2 1 2 2 0-0 0 3.60

 

 

Background

John Maine attended college at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte. As a sophomore in 2001, he led Conference USA with 12 wins, 144 strikeouts, and posted a 3.82 ERA, earning conference Pitcher of the Year honors. However, his junior season in 2002 was less successful, and he dropped to the sixth round in the draft that June. This turned into a bargain pick for the Orioles. Maine pitched brilliantly in his '02 pro debut, then zipped through A-ball in 2003, leading the minor leagues in strikeouts and posting a stellar 185/38 K/BB ratio. He began 2004 in Double-A, but earned his way to Triple-A after just five starts. Maine is one of the better right-handed pitching prospects in the game, and should arrive in Baltimore later this summer.

 

 

Scouting report

Maine is a good athlete, tall and somewhat lanky and thin, with broad shoulders. He has a "loose" arm and doesn't look overly vulnerable to injury. His biggest problem in college was erratic mechanics, which would hurt his command on occasion. But this has been much less of a problem in pro ball, and his command has been very sharp. His fastball runs in the 90-93 mph range, with excellent sinking and running action. He has made major improvements with his curveball and changeup, giving him a solid three-pitch arsenal. Maine can throw any of his pitches for strikes, and has overcome a previous habit of relying too much on his fastball. He is intelligent, emotionally mature, and has sound pitching instincts, understanding the necessity of changing speeds and keeping hitters off-balance. Although he doesn't throw quite as hard as some of the elite prospects in the game, he's proven he can dominate professional hitters.

 

 

Performance

There is little to complain about in Maine's statistical profile. His K/IP, K/BB, and H/IP ratios have been uniformly excellent at every level, particularly the K/IP. He doesn't give up very many home runs, another positive predictive marker for the future. Although he has just six starts at Double-A and above, his numbers show little deterioration at the higher levels, obviously a good sign. We need to see how he does with the additional Triple-A starts coming his way, but there is nothing in his record to indicate serious adjustment problems ahead.

 

 

Health record

Maine has had no serious injury problems. His occasionally erratic mechanics in college made some scouts worry about his long-term health, but he has been more consistent and efficient in pro ball. If you've been reading these reports long enough, you know that doesn't guarantee he'll stay healthy. But it does reduce the risk.

 

 

What to expect

Statistically, Maine offers just about everything. Scouting-wise, while he doesn't blow the ball past people with pure velocity, his stuff is more than respectable, and his command has been excellent. He's getting his shot now in Triple-A, and if he continues to pitch well, a promotion to Baltimore is likely later this season. Maine projects as a solid mid-rotation starter, and is a good example of the bargains that can be found in the middle rounds of most draft classes.

 

John Sickels is the author of The Baseball Prospect Book 2004, which can be ordered through his Web site, Johnsickels.com. His other book, Bob Feller: Ace of the Greatest Generation, is also out, and can be ordered through on-line book outlets or your local bookstore. He lives in Lawrence, Kansas, with his wife Jeri, son Nicholas, and feline friends Toonces and Spot.

 

Sounds like he was projected to be a 14-10 record pitcher with a high 3s low 4s ERA for his career.

 

Zito got worse every year steadily after Rick P left him. While Rick P didn't have everything to do with his success, it certainly hurt Zito to not work with him.

[MakeMeSomeFoodHo]

Control isn't Perez's strength but to say he has none is dumb. And yes, he can throw sliders anywhere to any given hitter. He can throw that sharp biting slider down and in the dirt to the right handed hitter, or make a beautiful backdoor pitch with late movement that'll catch the corner. His sliders to lefties are just as devastating, and have been an integral part of his .200 average pitching to lefties.

 

Randy Johnson's mechanics aren't exactly the most graceful thing either. Moises Alou has hitting mechanics that would drive any hitting coach crazy but it inexplicably works. Point is, Perez may have a bit abnormal mechanics (i dont even think they are that bad) but some pitchers and hitters do it different ways but still make it work.

 

Wants to get with a pitching coach that'll make him perform correctly? Huh? What beef do you have with Rick Peterson, it's clear that he is one of the most brilliant pitching minds in baseball. Is it that hard to admit? Perez always had the stuff but Rick clearly taught him something that has helped him with his confidence, control, and pitch sequences too.

 

I can't believe I'm wasting my time doing this but here it goes... your comment with Perez averaging 110 pitches per 7 innings was wrong so I'm here to break it down for you. Here's every outing with IP and total pitches that he's had this year.

 

7 IP 82 pitches

2.2 IP 73 pitches

6.2 IP 98 pitches

7 IP 120 pitches

5.1 IP 98 pitches

4.2 IP 84 pitches

8.1 IP 109 pitches

7.2 IP 108 pitches

7 IP 102 pitches

7 IP 98 pitches

7 IP 103 pitches

5 IP 106 pitches

7.1 IP 111 pitches

5.1 IP 92 pitches

6.1 IP 103 pitches

6 IP 95 pitches

7.1 IP 103 pitches

6 IP 99 pitches

 

Add the pitches together and divide them by IP, then multiply by 7 you get roughly 103 pitches per 7 innings. So that point is moot too, I'll take those stats. Also, Perez gets stronger in the late innings, his fastball stays up in velocity and his off speed pitches maintain their movement. While John Maine is the ace of our staff, I believe that PErez is the guy I'd want out there to get 7+.

 

I'm not even going to get into the tough luck he's been involved in with fielding and his impressive starts he's had in big games. 5-0 against the Braves and Yankees, needless to say that is very good.

Look, I dont mean to sound like a know it all dick...Im not, Im wrong alot. but Im 100% right about Perez. Out of the top 20 ERA leaders in the NL Perez has the second highest DIPS percentage at 1.44 and a DIPS ERA of 4.10. that tells me that his 2.84 ERA is not a true indicator of his skill.

 

as I dont feel like explaining DIPS, please read the following at your convienience.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...-look-at-dips1/

[feefifoefum]

I agree with you about Perez, when any left handed pitcher can command his pitches, theyre tough. But thats one of his problems, he has trouble commanding he pitches and I think his mechanics are the reason why, the guy is all over the place. When you average 110 pitches per 7 innings and have the numbers Perez has, one can say he's been lucky...better yet, enigmatic or a paradox

 

Kay is a moron, he doesnt know anything, dont listen to anything he says, he will only make you dumb. And again, how much validity can you put on the O's? That team has been a mess for years, their ownership/upper management has been downright awful. They have no idea how to evaluate talent or run baseball team all together.

When a pitcher who posses great stuff does well, Peterson is a genius. I get it

 

So when a pitcher he tutors fails (Zambrano), it's on Peterson, but when two pitchers who struggled before him (Maine, Perez), succeed, it was in spite of him... I get it.

 

 

 

The Mets have consistently been among the leaders in NL ERA since Peterson has been here, no matter who was on the staff. I'm glad we have him.

[gateb]

Look, I dont mean to sound like a know it all dick...Im not, Im wrong alot. but Im 100% right about Perez. Out of the top 20 ERA leaders in the NL Perez has the second highest DIPS percentage at 1.44 and a DIPS ERA of 4.10. that tells me that his 2.84 ERA is not a true indicator of his skill.

 

as I dont feel like explaining DIPS, please read the following at your convienience.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...-look-at-dips1/

Whatever man... its just hard for me to believe everything you say... just out of curiousity, which of the 10 games did you watch Perez pitch in? And why weren't you watchign the Yankees game? Surely, you can't watch perez pitch throughout most of a game if your Yankees are on, right?

[Herc]

to be fair, if maine was projected to have a high 3's low 4's era as a member of an AL team then he's probably about where he would have been projected if he was on an NL minor league team--maybe a little better

[so-cal dub]

Do any of you Yankee fans go into the Mets section and start flame war over the stuff they post?

 

 

 

I didn't think so.

[fringe]

Do any of you Yankee fans go into the Mets section and start flame war over the stuff they post?

I didn't think so.

yankee fans go wherever they damn well please

[feefifoefum]

Do any of you Yankee fans go into the Mets section and start flame war over the stuff they post?

I didn't think so.

 

:blah:

 

Sit on it, Potsie.

[so-cal dub]

:blah:

 

Sit on it, Potsie.

 

Truth hurts eh?

[feefifoefum]

Truth hurts eh?

 

The truth? The truth is this thread has become a healthy mix of differing opinions on a number of subjects including why:

 

Reyes is overrated

Reyes is better than Jeter

Reyes will never be considered as good as Jeter because of 4 rings

Comparing individuals based on team accomplishments is irrelevant

Oliver Perez is lucky

Peterson has turned Perez around

Peterson is overrated as a pitching coach

Why Zito's curveball isn't the same

 

Stats have been pulled out of asses like DIPS, a stat I never knew existed (thanks MMSFH)

 

Many different opinions, expressed by posters all, doing something this site needs, increasing traffic. Who cares what section it is in?

[fringe]

don't get all logical on us, fefo

[feefifoefum]

don't get all logical on us, fefo

 

I'm sorry...

[so-cal dub]

The truth? The truth is this thread has become a healthy mix of differing opinions on a number of subjects including why:

 

Reyes is overrated

Reyes is better than Jeter

Reyes will never be considered as good as Jeter because of 4 rings

Comparing individuals based on team accomplishments is irrelevant

Oliver Perez is lucky

Peterson has turned Perez around

Peterson is overrated as a pitching coach

Why Zito's curveball isn't the same

 

Stats have been pulled out of asses like DIPS, a stat I never knew existed (thanks MMSFH)

 

Many different opinions, expressed by posters all, doing something this site needs, increasing traffic. Who cares what section it is in?

I just wanted to know how it would look if we all decided to go into the Mets sec and rip you guys up for your opinions. If you'd like that, I can be a real pain in the ass.

[fringe]

Be my guest!

[feefifoefum]

I just wanted to know how it would look if we all decided to go into the Mets sec and rip you guys up for your opinions. If you'd like that, I can be a real pain in the ass.

 

I'm not sure anyone is being "ripped", but please do. The Mets section has been dead and could use a jolt. You owe us one. When's the last time a thread in the Yankees section approached 90 replies?

[Herc]

sorry fe, i would've been happy to go talk shit during the pads series and liven up that section but im convinced that they get cold everytime i get too confident

[feefifoefum]

sorry fe, i would've been happy to go talk shit during the pads series and liven up that section but im convinced that they get cold everytime i get too confident

 

I know the feeling...

 

You know when the Yankees went on their 9 game winning streak while the Mets went 3-13?? Right after I sent my sister (Yankee fan) an email saying that the town was now ours. The Yankees were 21-29 then...

 

This also happened in 2005 when the Yankees were 11-19. I started talking shit to her, and the Yankees went on a tear. I'm the Yankees' good luck jinx... You Yankee fans should love it when I start flapping.

[xxi-xxv]

Here is how I see it.

 

Wise man once said, you are what your record says you are.

 

Derek Jeter has 4 rings a WS MVP an ALL STar MVP and a rookie of the year. Those numbers dictate greatness and that is what he is.

 

Jose Reyes has begun a career as a leadoff hitter at a record setting pace. He show improvements in his overall game and is one of the most exciting players in the game. Overrated he is not.

 

Oliver Perez is 9-7 with a 2.84 ERA. I do not care about his wildness, his whip, his dip his fucking doofy line hop. He is what his record says he is. You can be lucky in one game, one pitch, one at bat, not over 100+ innings. Wild? Yeah very. First young pitcher to be wild and have to harness that? No.

 

BTW, I do not think anyone has trashed the Yankees. IMO I said that the Sox pitching combined with some cream puff team will enable them to hold of an improving Yankee team. I also defended a guy in Jose Reyes who many believe to be one of the most exciting players in the game from being termed overrated. I believe I also said he is nowhere in the league of Derek Jeter just yet. I also believe that I defended a pitcher who has had a very good season after a good postseason for the Mets in 06. One who is 5-0 vs the Yankees and Braves this year. Actually I have seen very little bashing of the Yanks, more of the non objective opinions of Met haters.

[Herc]

I know the feeling...

 

You know when the Yankees went on their 9 game winning streak while the Mets went 3-13?? Right after I sent my sister (Yankee fan) an email saying that the town was now ours. The Yankees were 21-29 then...

 

This also happened in 2005 when the Yankees were 11-19. I started talking shit to her, and the Yankees went on a tear. I'm the Yankees' good luck jinx... You Yankee fans should love it when I start flapping.

 

talk some shit about the pads then--specifically about how chris young is a slow healer...

[feefifoefum]

talk some shit about the pads then--specifically about how chris young is a slow healer...

 

The Padres suck. Chris Young is overrated and he will be on the DL for the next decade. Greg Maddux is old and washed up. Your bullpen blows, as evidenced by yesterday's game.

 

The Padres WILL NOT win the NL West...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but they WILL beat the Mets in the NLCS.

[Herc]

The Padres suck. Chris Young is overrated and he will be on the DL for the next decade. Greg Maddux is old and washed up. Your bullpen blows, as evidenced by yesterday's game.

 

The Padres WILL NOT win the NL West...

but they WILL beat the Mets in the NLCS.

 

2005-1st round sweep

2006-1 win in the first round

2007-NLCS

 

baby steps my friend--i'll take it. not making the playoffs 7 straight years is still fresh in my mind

[feefifoefum]

2005-1st round sweep

2006-1 win in the first round

2007-NLCS

 

baby steps my friend--i'll take it. not making the playoffs 7 straight years is still fresh in my mind

 

Try not winning a division in 18 years, in a city that houses another team that had made the playoffs 11 straight years, and having a "rival" that had won 14 straight divisions.

 

I use the term rival loosely, because Braves-Mets was never much of a fair fight.

[Herc]

Try not winning a division in 18 years, in a city that houses another team that had made the playoffs 11 straight years, and having a "rival" that had won 14 straight divisions.

 

I use the term rival loosely, because Braves-Mets was never much of a fair fight.

 

you've won a world series. the end.

[gateb]

2005-1st round sweep

2006-1 win in the first round

2007-NLCS 2 wins in first round

 

baby steps my friend--i'll take it. not making the playoffs 7 straight years is still fresh in my mind