Drafting a DT

[parlintm]

DT is the only position that we NEED to focus on in the draft. All other draft picks are for depth but this is a position that could give us an impact player that can and will start for us from day 1. We've addressed the issue regarding value at the #25 spot. Watson is the only guy that is worthy of consideration, but I'm not sold on him and is a bit too risky for our needs, although he would be the proverbial "swinging for the fences" pick, which I'm not entirely against.

 

In order to maximize the value with our pick, I think we should target a DT in either the second or third round. Trading up to the top of the third seems like a logical move, worthy of consideration.

 

Anyway, here's my breakdown of the DT's in this draft:

 

Here's my big board for the DT's:

Ngata

Bunkley (both way out of reach even for trading up)

--

Gabe Watson -- Not worthy of 25th pick and I think we can get better value with DT's later in the draft. Pass.

DUSTY DVOACEK - Smart, physical, quick, hardest worker.... basically everything you look for in a DT. He's the man to get.

Claude Wrote - Talented but a few too many issues for me. Failed the drug test for example.

John McCargo - People write him off because he played w/ 2 great DE's. I don't think our DE's are too shabby. Can't ignore his productivity.

Rod Wright - Not my favorite but has the physical attributes needed to be good.

 

IMO, these are the list of guys to choose from. If we don't get one of these guys in the draft I'll be very disappointed. I would be OK to take any of these guys in the second round. They are listed in order of preferance.

 

----

 

Here's a list of players that I DONT want us to draft:

 

Orien Harris - Lots of injuries. Doesnt have the build to be great. I see him being injury prone and a mediocre DT in the NFL.

 

Jesse Mahelona - Only good at pass rushing. We have plenty of those on our D. We need run stuffers, something he is not.

 

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Guys I like, but don't think are in the same league as the first list:

 

Babatunde Oshinowo

Barry Cofield

Manai Brown

Titus Adams

Tommy Jackson

Jonny Jolly

Domata Peko

 

Ideally, Id like to see us get a first list guy and pick up one of these others late in the draft.

[gmenroc]

Wouldn't mind Wroten or Watson, but by the time we pick in the 2nd, I'd bet they're both gone too.

[Guest Floyd The Barber]

its a draft day, first day, priority...NEXT QUESTION !!!

[shockjock]

I would love either Ngata or Bunkley....but they aren't falling to us and I don't want to see us go anywhere near Watson.

 

In the second we should hope for Claude Wroten or Jonathan Lewis...Maybe John McCargo at this pick, but that may be a reach.

 

Dvorcek i really like but I think he would be a reach in the second round, but would be a no brainer in the third if the position was not already taken care of

[parlintm]

I would love either Ngata or Bunkley....but they aren't falling to us and I don't want to see us go anywhere near Watson.

 

In the second we should hope for Claude Wroten or Jonathan Lewis...Maybe John McCargo at this pick, but that may be a reach.

 

Dvorcek i really like but I think he would be a reach in the second round, but would be a no brainer in the third if the position was not already taken care of

 

Can someone explain this to me? Why is he a reach in the second?

[Guest nosebleed]

Out of the first three selections, two should be DT.

[parlintm]

Out of the first three selections, two should be DT.

 

I would be in favor of that, especially since there is a good chance that one of our starting DT's is a rookie. It would provide great competition and allow the coaches to reward a player for hard work and a good understanding of the defense. This would be ideal if we drafted Watson since we would have some insurance if he turns out to be a bust and it would give him motivation to win that starting spot and keep it.

 

I would be fine with a draft that looked like:

Round 1 - Watson

Round 2 - Daniel Manning

Round 3 - Dusty D.

 

Although, this draft stategy lends itself to trading down and picking up an extra third rounder.

[Guest Floyd The Barber]

I would be in favor of that, especially since there is a good chance that one of our starting DT's is a rookie. It would provide great competition and allow the coaches to reward a player for hard work and a good understanding of the defense. This would be ideal if we drafted Watson since we would have some insurance if he turns out to be a bust and it would give him motivation to win that starting spot and keep it.

 

I would be fine with a draft that looked like:

Round 1 - Watson

Round 2 - Daniel Manning

Round 3 - Dusty D.

 

Although, this draft stategy lends itself to trading down and picking up an extra third rounder.

 

 

a corner at #2, espicially that guy would give me heart failure...we do LB-DT , or DT-LB in that fashion...Bobby Carpenter if he is available at #1...

 

NEXT QUESTION !!!

[shockjock]

Can someone explain this to me? Why is he a reach in the second?

because chances are good that he could be there when we select in the third...so it would be foolish to draft him a whole round early.....not to mention he does not have overbearing talent. He is a work horse who never quits and goes 100%, but he does not have eye popping speed, size or strength. Hell, you got him going in the third in your mock. Seems you think second would be a little to high for him, as well. Don't get your panties in a twist...

[Balloonknot]

a corner at #2, espicially that guy would give me heart failure...we do LB-DT , or DT-LB in that fashion...Bobby Carpenter if he is available at #1...

 

NEXT QUESTION !!!

 

 

Yeah, Do you ever pull your head out of your ass?

[Guest Nutty Sack]

If Bobby Carpenter is available to us at 25 and Ernie picks someone else, there will be a 51 inch plasma TV at my Curbside on Monday with a hole in the screen for refuse removal.

[Balloonknot]

If Bobby Carpenter is available to us at 25 and Ernie picks someone else, there will be a 51 inch plasma TV at my Curbside on Monday with a hole in the screen for refuse removal.

Save the TV, Kill yourself

[Guest Nutty Sack]

Save the TV, Kill yourself

 

 

May I give you the same advice based on the looks of that thing you have your arm around.

[Guest Carbo]

May I give you the same advice based on the looks of that thing you have your arm around.

[US Patriot]

Save the TV, Kill yourself

:worshippy: :worshippy: :worshippy:

[HOUND]

because chances are good that he could be there when we select in the third...so it would be foolish to draft him a whole round early.....not to mention he does not have overbearing talent. He is a work horse who never quits and goes 100%, but he does not have eye popping speed, size or strength. Hell, you got him going in the third in your mock. Seems you think second would be a little to high for him, as well. Don't get your panties in a twist...

 

Well said. Dvoracek isn't really a great athlete. However he's a fierce competitor. He works hard and is the type of player coaches love to have. However when compared to other DT in the draft he doesn't measure up on overall athletic ability. Guys like that are a dime a dozen once you get past the third round. Given that, why take him in round 2? Understand, I like Dvoracek as a player. He reminds me of the Eagles Sam Rayburn ... tough, blue collar workaholic, but 2nd round is too early for him.

 

CB Daniel Manning is not first day quality. He's a big risk. Anything sooner than round 4 would be a major reach.

[HOUND]

I'd take Rod Wright of Texas over Wroten or Dvoracek. He's big. He's strong. He makes plays sideline to sideline and he anchors well against the run. He's the 4th best Tackle in the draft IMHO. The talent is there but he needs some coaching to get it out of him. If he plays to his full potential he'll be a force at the next level.

 

Another way of looking at it is Watson, Wright, Dvoracek and Wroten all have risks associated with them. In Wroten and Dvoracek's case it's off field stuff. In Watson and Wright's case it's motivation and particularly in Gabe's case, conditioning. If we're going to roll the dice on any of these guys I'd prefer to get the guys with much higher upside. Wright and Watson, if they fulfill their potential will be far superior to Wroten and Dvoracek.

[uconngiants]

my list goes...

 

1. Bunkley

2. Ngata

3. Wroten

4. Watson

5. McCargo

6. Wright

7. Lewis

8. Stanley (nobody has been talking about from Louisville very underrated)

9. Dvoracek

10. Harris

 

I am sure most you you will not agree with that seeding but that is my top 10

[Pizan]

because chances are good that he could be there when we select in the third...so it would be foolish to draft him a whole round early.....not to mention he does not have overbearing talent. He is a work horse who never quits and goes 100%, but he does not have eye popping speed, size or strength. Hell, you got him going in the third in your mock. Seems you think second would be a little to high for him, as well. Don't get your panties in a twist...

 

 

Well said. Dvoracek isn't really a great athlete. However he's a fierce competitor. He works hard and is the type of player coaches love to have. However when compared to other DT in the draft he doesn't measure up on overall athletic ability. Guys like that are a dime a dozen once you get past the third round. Given that, why take him in round 2? Understand, I like Dvoracek as a player. He reminds me of the Eagles Sam Rayburn ... tough, blue collar workaholic, but 2nd round is too early for him.

 

CB Daniel Manning is not first day quality. He's a big risk. Anything sooner than round 4 would be a major reach.

 

 

Hound, unless you and me look at atheltic ability different, I think you're wrong with what I have bolded. I took the liberty to get the other DTs number along with Dvoracek so you can see on an atheltic level he is very close to the others who are in this draft.

 

Dvoracek (6-2¾, 306 pounds) At his proday he was timed at 4.79 and 4.81 in the 40. He had a 9-foot-6 broad jump, 4.47 short shuttle and a 7.59 three-cone drill. He did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press. At the combine he ran the 40-yard dash in 5.07 seconds with a 34-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Wroten had a 29½-inch vertical jump, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.83 and the three-cone drill in 7.70.

 

Bunkley (6-2 5/8, 304) he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.95 seconds, did 44 reps in the 225-pound bench press, had a 32.5-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-5 broad jump.

 

Wright (6-4 3/4, 303) had a 4.47 short shuttle. He ran the 40-yard dash in 5.16 seconds with a 32-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

McCargo (6-1, 305) ran his 40s in 5.11 and 5.12 seconds. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.37 and the three-cone drill in 7.29. He did 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Harris (6-2 7/8, 298) did not lift, but ran his 40s in 5.27 and 5.28. He also ran 4.51 in the short shuttle and 7.45 in the cone drill. He had a 29½-inch vertical, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump lift. He lifted 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Lewis ran the 40-yard dash in 4.97 seconds with a 33.5-inch vertical jump, a 9-3 broad jump and 24 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

 

Now I do think Dvoracek at 56 may be just a bit too early but I dont think he'll be there at the end of round 3. So selecting him at 56 (assuming we dont trade down) isnt that bad of an idea at all. I like Dusty and the attitude he brings to the game as well. But I also feel he can get it done with his talent. Just take a look at his production on the field. Stats

 

Dusty is stout vs the run and has the tools and strength to hold up. He also has the talent and skills to be an effective pass rusher. To me Dvoracek is one of the better all around DTs after Ngata and Bunkley. I actually cant believe McCargo, Lewis, and Harris have been rated higher on some boards I've seen.

[parlintm]

Here's an interesting article on putting together the stats from the combine and pro-day. Check out the chart with the top rated players. Bunkley, Ngata and Dvoracek are the only DT's on the list.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200

 

Nice post Pizan. I was thinking of how to say what you said, but you did it better than I could have hoped.

[HOUND]

Hound, unless you and me look at atheltic ability different, I think you're wrong with what I have bolded. I took the liberty to get the other DTs number along with Dvoracek so you can see on an atheltic level he is very close to the others who are in this draft.

 

Dvoracek (6-2¾, 306 pounds) At his proday he was timed at 4.79 and 4.81 in the 40. He had a 9-foot-6 broad jump, 4.47 short shuttle and a 7.59 three-cone drill. He did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press. At the combine he ran the 40-yard dash in 5.07 seconds with a 34-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Wroten had a 29½-inch vertical jump, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.83 and the three-cone drill in 7.70.

 

Bunkley (6-2 5/8, 304) he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.95 seconds, did 44 reps in the 225-pound bench press, had a 32.5-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-5 broad jump.

 

Wright (6-4 3/4, 303) had a 4.47 short shuttle. He ran the 40-yard dash in 5.16 seconds with a 32-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

McCargo (6-1, 305) ran his 40s in 5.11 and 5.12 seconds. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.37 and the three-cone drill in 7.29. He did 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Harris (6-2 7/8, 298) did not lift, but ran his 40s in 5.27 and 5.28. He also ran 4.51 in the short shuttle and 7.45 in the cone drill. He had a 29½-inch vertical, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump lift. He lifted 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Lewis ran the 40-yard dash in 4.97 seconds with a 33.5-inch vertical jump, a 9-3 broad jump and 24 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

Now I do think Dvoracek at 56 may be just a bit too early but I dont think he'll be there at the end of round 3. So selecting him at 56 (assuming we dont trade down) isnt that bad of an idea at all. I like Dusty and the attitude he brings to the game as well. But I also feel he can get it done with his talent. Just take a look at his production on the field. Stats

 

Dusty is stout vs the run and has the tools and strength to hold up. He also has the talent and skills to be an effective pass rusher. To me Dvoracek is one of the better all around DTs after Ngata and Bunkley. I actually cant believe McCargo, Lewis, and Harris have been rated higher on some boards I've seen.

 

Dvoracek definitely improved his standing at the combine. His 40 time was stated at 5.1 before he went to the Combine. He bested that by .4! Generally speaking, Dvoracek produced better combine number than I thought he was capable of. I think one of his strongest suits is his strength. He uses his upper body well. Although I also think he's limited as a pass rusher. He doesn't have many moves besides a straight bull rush. He's better versus the run than pass but I'm not necessarily convinced he can be an everydown defender.

 

I should've been more specific in my criticism though. When I was comparing his overall athleticism I was doing so versus guys like Watson, Wright and Wroten in mind. Basically I don't think Dvoracek offers as good of an upside as these guys. However I will admit I can see where some would be more confident in Dvoracek fulfilling his potential than the other guys. Dusty seems to have the best work ethic of the bunch. I'd take all the guys I've listed above ahead of Dvoracek but that said, I won't be upset if we draft the Sooner. Although I still say 2nd round is too early. If we have to reach for a tackle I'd rather reach for Watson in round 1. Personally methinks if Wright is there in round 2 we can't pass him over.

 

I agree that McCargo is overrated. I like Oshinowo too but he's not a great fit for us.

[parlintm]

Dvoracek definitely improved his standing at the combine. His 40 time was stated at 5.1 before he went to the Combine. He bested that by .4! Generally speaking, Dvoracek produced better combine number than I thought he was capable of. I think one of his strongest suits is his strength. He uses his upper body well. Although I also think he's limited as a pass rusher. He doesn't have many moves besides a straight bull rush. He's better versus the run than pass but I'm not necessarily convinced he can be an everydown defender.

 

I should've been more specific in my criticism though. When I was comparing his overall athleticism I was doing so versus guys like Watson, Wright and Wroten in mind. Basically I don't think Dvoracek offers as good of an upside as these guys. However I will admit I can see where some would be more confident in Dvoracek fulfilling his potential than the other guys. Dusty seems to have the best work ethic of the bunch. I'd take all the guys I've listed above ahead of Dvoracek but that said, I won't be upset if we draft the Sooner. Although I still say 2nd round is too early. If we have to reach for a tackle I'd rather reach for Watson in round 1. Personally methinks if Wright is there in round 2 we can't pass him over.

 

I agree that McCargo is overrated. I like Oshinowo too but he's not a great fit for us.

 

I agree that Watson and Wroten are better prospects that DD. It's unlikely that either of them will be available when we pick in the second round. So in order to get one of them, we would have to use a 1st rounder on them. Im not completely opposed to the idea of drafting Watson at 25 but for the sake of discussion, I'm trying to analyze who I'd like at 56 or in the third round. I think, given our need, waiting until the third on a guy is too risky. So that means that if we don't draft Watson, we HAVE to use our second round pick on a DT. The list of potential candidates are: Rod Wright, Dusty Dvoracek, Jon Lewis, John Mcargo, Orien Harris and Jesse Mahelona.

 

IMO, Harris and Mahelona can be crossed off the list. I dont want either under any circumstance in the second. Mcargo never got double teamed due to the talent surrounding him. I forget who said that they watched a lot of his games and don't think hes worth it. It seems as if that might be the general consensus around the league. Jon Lewis seems to be a slower, weaker Dusty and given a choice between those two, Id definitely take DD.

 

So it comes down to Dvoracek and Wright.

 

For me, the deciding factor is figuring out what we are looking for in a DT. The Giants have playmakers throughout their entire front 7. We don't need a gamebreaking DT, we need a guy who is going to play hard and occupy blockers so that Pierce, Arrington, Demps, Gibril and everyone else can come up and make the plays. Rod Wright has more potential than DD but I think that there's a much greater chance that he is a bust. The Giants are ready to win right now and they need a DT that can step on the field right now. There are fewer players that are as hard working as DD in this draft. I would love to have him on the team since I know what he brings to the table. With this pick, I want as little risk as possible and Dusty gives me that.

 

Whearas Wright has been knocked for his inconsistency. I've read this a few too many times about him, "An underachiever who doesnt always play up to his physical ability... Is not hard working.... Technique is lacking." Also, much of his potential lies in his ability to add weight. Until then, he's not better than Dusty. As I said before, we need this DT this season and waiting a year or two for Wright to fill out and learn techniques is not something that I want to do.

[HOUND]

I think you're giving Dvoracek far too much credit if you're looking for a contribution this year. I really think he'll need to develop for a bit before a team will get contributions from him.

 

I think you make a good point about underachievers vs. overachievers. My biggest concern is that I'm not convinced that DD can be a player in this league although it won't be for a lack of effort. I'm absolutely convinced Wright can cut it and if he fulfills his potential he's Pro Bowl caliber. Yes, the bust potential is there but in round 2 I think he's worth the gamble. I'll agree that Wright will be most effective after he puts more weight on. That 6'6" frame could definitely add more bulk. He reminds me a bit of Keith Hamilton in that regard. Hammer too had questions about his intensity in the early going.

 

I'm pretty sure I was the one who gave the pessimistic review of McCargo. I've seen him play live on multiple occassions. I think he'd be better served staying in school another year but he knows he's got much less talent around him this season. If he disappoints in his senior season his draft stock plummets, whereas if he comes out now, some will be fooled and overlook the lack of attention opposing offenses gave him.

[parlintm]

I think you're giving Dvoracek far too much credit if you're looking for a contribution this year. I really think he'll need to develop for a bit before a team will get contributions from him.

 

I think you make a good point about underachievers vs. overachievers. My biggest concern is that I'm not convinced that DD can be a player in this league although it won't be for a lack of effort. I'm absolutely convinced Wright can cut it and if he fulfills his potential he's Pro Bowl caliber. Yes, the bust potential is there but in round 2 I think he's worth the gamble. I'll agree that Wright will be most effective after he puts more weight on. That 6'6" frame could definitely add more bulk. He reminds me a bit of Keith Hamilton in that regard. Hammer too had questions about his intensity in the early going.

 

I'm pretty sure I was the one who gave the pessimistic review of McCargo. I've seen him play live on multiple occassions. I think he'd be better served staying in school another year but he knows he's got much less talent around him this season. If he disappoints in his senior season his draft stock plummets, whereas if he comes out now, some will be fooled and overlook the lack of attention opposing offenses gave him.

 

Honestly, I don't know exactly what it takes to be a solid contributer as a defensive tackle in the NFL. I don't know what schemes and defenses that they need to learn or if it's simply the physicality of playing with the big boys that people struggle with. I'm not anywhere close to being an NFL player and don't have the slightest clue as to what they need to do.

 

Obviously it starts with talent because some guys can just come in and play, but those are few. As for the rest of them, I think it takes some combination of intelligence and hard work before it clicks. Given what I've read and seen about DD, I think that he has as good or better of a chance of contributing from day 1 as any of the round 2 DT's. He was honored for his strong academic performance throughout school which means two things: 1. He's not a moron and should be able to grasp the schemes that are thrown his way during camp and 2. That he was committed academically, something most college players are not. He was also praised repeatedly for being the hardest worker off the field.

 

Given his intelligence and his work ethic, I don't see why we can't expect him to contribute right away. We need our DT to work hard and eat up blockers so that everyone else can do their jobs. Given our HC, I think a strong work ethic would go a long way. We need a contributor this year and I think the chances of getting one out of DD are much higher than many of the other DT options.