fishgutmartyr

 

Ok, lets put it another way then.

 

Diehl

 

Seubert

 

O'hara

 

Snee

 

McKenzie

 

Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber.

 

This is clearly going in the wrong direction.

The guy who dealt those players in 2004-2005 also dealt his coach Pettigout, Lucier, Bober, Diehl, and Allen the year before. There was even less reason to keep that GM in 2003 than there is keeping Reese now.

We replaced the entire oline except for Pettigout and Diehl. Replaced QBs. Rebuilt the interior of the defensive line in 2004. Changed even more in 2005. Yeah, we blew the team up.

 

And a good chunk of Fewell's players are on IR every season. I don't think that is a legitimate excuse, though. The fact is, that good coordinators find ways to fill holes and adhere to a "next man up" mindset.. The Giants as a team, are piss-poor at that. The Packers seem to have similar luck in terms of injuries but are a perennial playoff team with typically solid defenses.

Wait--you're comparing the IR problem this year to what Spagnuolo went through in NO? If you can't tell the difference between the two circumstances, then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it.

If you want to compare something a little more balanced, then look at what Spags did with 2008, and losing his two starting DEs (one being a HOF'er) before the season even started. Robbins played the season with a broken hand. Cofield had surgery after the season. The only LB we had was an already-declining Antonio Pierce.

Frankly, I don't even care about Spagnuolo that much--I thought he was OK as a DC.

 

Spagnuolo is currently the secondary coach in Baltimore, a promotion from last year when he was a "Senior Defensive Assistant". I think it's telling that no team has really even considered him for any meaningful position after his failure in St. Louis, followed by his failure in New Orleans, where his defense gave up the most yards in NFL HISTORY. Not just the most in that particular season...the most in NFL history. Either he caught lightning in a bottle in 2007 or he sold his soul to the devil for a Super Bowl and the devil has come for repayment in the form of the rest of his career...but the guy has simply been figured out. So now, he essentially gets the Jim Fassel treatment.

I thought Spagnuolo's major selling point here was that he wasn't Tim Lewis, but it he did do a good job.

And to be fair, he's been served some some serious shit-sandwiches since those days. When he was head coach, he had to play a season or two without Bradford, who hasn't exactly been an iron man, or much of a difference when he was on the field. And to hold that one year in NO against him is just ridiculous, considering the team was headless, and a good chunk of his players were suspended.

So the terrible draft we had in 2012 was league-wide?

hmmmm... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828ed138/article/bengals-patriots-giants-chiefs-ace-2012-nfl-draft

I'm not saying by any stretch we had a good draft that year, but there might be a lot of hindsight going into our judgements, something Reese didn't have the benefit of back in 2012.

This defense has serious problems with the front 7. The linebackers are still at the same level it was when we had Osi and Tuck in their primes--except we don't have Osi and Tuck, and no DE has really come close to them. There's no more mask for the LBs.

We could have had Prince, Thurmond, whoever else you want to name in the defensive backfield, and Dallas still would have scored with the time Romo had.

 

I was thinking the same thing. "What a great player he's going to be! Oh yeah... until he gets a knee, and an ankle, and a quad injury to go with that hamstring."

I was thinking "Well, that was fun," when he was taken out in the 2nd half on Sunday.

Too funny. I've been saying this for years, before and after 2011, but nobody wanted to hear it.

That method of study reveals nothing. Teams that have drafted well will be at the top of this list, but so will teams with poor front offices that overvalue their own players.

...And teams with cheap owners who refuse to spend on free agency.

The top 10 teams on this list are 50/50 between winning records and .500 and below. The bottom 10 reflects the premise slightly better with only 3 teams with winning records, but 2 of the teams are division leaders, and one has the best record in the league.

The only thing this list seems to indicate is that there may be a threshold of draft picks on the team (about 56%) that makes a winning team easier to accomplish.

He's also adding injured reserve...how exactly are UFAs on IR doing anything for a team? Half of our IR list (7--let that sink in) are non-draftee/non-UDFA. In fact, we're signing off the street free agents to replace these guys at this point, and that's also skewing things. Unless you're going to argue Orleans Darkwa, Chandler Fenner, Mike Harris, and Chykie Brown are upgrades from the guys they replaced.

 

So......according to your logic, you should be thanking Coughlin for coaching up Beckham.

That doesn't make sense, Joe. The only thing Beckham has proved so far is that he came into the league with a great deal of talent. I would be hesitant to trash the WR coach anyway--Ryan's only been in the spot for 1 preseason this go-round, during an offensive overhaul. Last time he was in this spot, he helped develop Nicks and Cruz.

But you have to look at play year over year.

I also suppose that Coughlin has had no influence on Eli Manning.

Probably not as much as you think--Coughlin has to administrate an entire team. The QB coach and OC probably have much more influence. You really don't want to be reminded who his first QB coach was.

 

Don't have to trash his argument about coaching because he has failed to make one. Hell we can still find flaws in Eli Manning's technique and he is in his 11th season.

 

You guys want to see some bad coaching I challenge you to watch a month of Jets football.

Of course you can find flaws in Manning's game--he's human. But on the other hand, you can't say he's the same player that was getting his ass whipped in 2004. If he was, he damn sure wouldn't have gotten the second contract.

Unfortunately, you can say that about Williams at this point. And Paysinger. That's the problem.

Let me put this another way: Mike Waufle was the defensive line coach from 2004-2010. Players that improved under him: Umenyiora, Cofield, Tuck, Robbins, Clancy, Alford, Tollefson. Robbins and Clancy were FAs, sure, but they did better here than they did on their previous teams, and Clancy pretty much dropped off of the map once he left. Sure, some guys never did, others not enough; but some of the guys that did develop, like Cofield, were drafted lower than the 3rd round.

Meanwhile, Nunn's list: Joseph, maybe Hankins, doubtfully JPP. We're playing Kuhn, but once upon a time we played William Joseph, too.

You can do the same with linebackers:

Sheridan: Greisen, Blackburn, Torbor. Wilkinson (sorta)

Hermann: Goff (sorta)

Now I'm not gonna lie: this is clash of the midgets--and all of these players would have to reach up to touch Byron Hunt's cleats, but Sheridan did get more out of what he was given than Hermann is.

It's grey--I love what Flaherty developed in the past, but he's not getting what he needs to get now from his players, and hasn't for some time with the exception of Beatty. We have some really good position coaches, too--Guinta, Merritt, Ryan; but to dismiss this argument out of hand is looking at things without shading.

There is definitely some crap drafting going on.

 

You must be joking about this list. This is your list of players that have declined since their rookie year because Tom Coughlin can't coach?

 

Spencer Paysinger? Which year was he a great linebacker? How amazing was he that the Giants went and signed McClain this offseason?

 

Rueben Randle is having his best season right now, what did he do his first two seasons to consider his third a decline?

 

Damontre Moore, where is his decline?

 

For all the shit we give Jaquain Williams this is the first time he is playing three downs since being drafted and of course before being injured.

 

JPP and Cruz had a pro bowl year in their second season and there simply aren't many players who can reproduce it back to back because teams start scheming around them.

Cruz was on IR his rookie year. JPP had almost no playing time behind Osi his first year. So to say they improved their second season is kind of sketchy, unless you're counting "healing" and "getting playing time" as an improvement.

Damontre Moore can't even get onto the field.

The correctable flaws in William's technique are still there from his rookie season--which is the polar opposite of what we saw in guys like Chase Blackburn and Nick Greisen. That's a fair comparison--none of these guys were ever going to be top-flight linebackers, but the last two were coached up to be NFL players, albeit primarily backup/marginal starters. There's some things coaching won't fix--he's not too big, so Williams is going to have trouble shedding blocks for instance--but he took himself out of plays during the Seattle game--that should not be happening with this consistency at this point in his career.

Frankly, saying a rookie hasn't declined since coming to the team is not trashing Tree's argument about coaching. Especially when a rookie's technique not improving over a few years is damning.

 

The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls, and exactly 1 time (1986) can someone make the argument that they were clearly the best team in the league.

 

That 1990 season was built upon maybe the best coaching job in Giants history.....a staff that included Parcells, Belichick, and Coughlin, beating a team that absolutely wiped the floor with the Raiders (a 13-3 team) in the AFCCG. On paper, the Bills were the best team that year.

 

Joe, we started the season 10-0 1990. We were one of the best teams in the league, without a doubt. The only reason we weren't favored in the SB was because we didn't have Simms or Hampton.

Buffalo dominated a signifcantly inferior AFC that year. If San Fran had won the NFC championship, they would have had their 3rd consecutive Lombardi.

That 1990 team was far better than most people seem to remember.

Fish, I don't see us going WR again especially with the state of both lines... BPA yes but a fatass indeed. Regardless if who the coach is we're getting killed in the trenches... Dallas went back to what got them championships in the 90s and now have a dominant OL that was atrocious not too long ago.

If we wind up drafting as high as we think we are, it will be too high to draft the olineman we desperately need--a guard. Beatty has been OK this year, and looks to be back to where he was before 2013. Pugh is having a serious sophomore slump, but is that solely on him, or being next to Jerry?

I suppose you could draft another tackle and try to shoehorn Pugh as a guard, but why not draft a guy that has proven in college he is a guard early in the 2nd round?

I'm not saying we shouldn't draft a tackle at all--our best backup is Jack Schitt-- but I don't know if we need a starter. A top-flight LT would be great, but you draft one, you have to get rid of Beatty because of the cap, and you're stuck in the same spot as this year--except now you're either starting a rookie or Pugh at LT.

Right now, we don't really have much in the way of guys capable of moving the ball. Jennings and Williams are ok, if they stay healthy and if the line can generate something resembling a hole, which they haven't. A tight end would be good, but that early?

But at WR, we have Beckham, maybe Cruz, maybe not; and a bunch of other guys who aren't really doing much with their chances. And at the rate we seem to go through them, it wouldn't hurt to have another WR.

On defense, I have no idea what the next coordinator would want--the only semblance of strength (on IR, at least) on our current roster is the backfield and at DT. JPP's contract is up, so if we're blowing up the defense, now is the time to go from base 4-3 to 3-4, if the DC wants to. But if we go 3-4, how important is a DE, in relation to the pick? Do you trade down a couple spots, and then trade back up into the tail end of the first to get a couple of LBs?

Like I said, it's too unsettled to really hazard a guess which way to go.

 

No doubt, the team was working for a good long stretch there, but it hasn't been working for three seasons now and it's not improving. I do wonder where we'd be if guys like Smith, Nicks, Bradshaw and Phillips stayed healthy. Probably in cap hell but we'd at least would have had more options to work on depth at OLine.

I'm not really arguing against your point. I'm pointing out that while you can rip Nunn for the progress of JPP, you have to give him credit for the development of Tuck.

Just like you have to give Flaherty credit for Diehl and Snee.

Granted, those guys had talent to begin with, but supposedly Pugh, Moore, and JPP have talent as well. So why did it work with the first three, and not with the second? Is the lack of drive in the player, or the coach? Or both?

If I'm Mara I clean house. Reese/Coughlin/Fewell are all gone. McAdoo stays depending on the next HC, I'd like some consistency on O. I'd look at the front office of the 49ers, Seahawks, Ravens, and Patriots for Reese's replacement. I'd interview Joe Lombardi (Lions OC), Greg Schiano, Vic Fangio (49ers DC), Todd Bowels (cards DC) for Coughlins replacemet.

 

I trade Eli to the highest bidder. He's not/hasn't played to his contract and its crippled us. Rams, Titans, Bills, Jets, Bucs, Texans would all probably be desperate enough to give a 1st and a 4th for him. I'd look at Hoyer or Locker as vets to compete with Nassib as well as a draft pick.

 

I prioritize fixing the OL. Keep Beatty at LT, slide Pugh In to Guard, draft a T with one of our 1st. Move Richburg to Center. Schwartz stays at Guard. I sign a vet swing tackle and keep Walton and Jerry as backups.

 

Donnell stays at TE but I find some legit competition for him. I see if a new coach can get more out of Randle before I give up on him, he's still very young and immature. Randle/OBJ/Cruz could be good for us but I'd look at signing/drafting a potential starting X.

 

Add a vet RB. I like Jennings and Williams with better blocking.

 

Most of the work would be on D. I resign Rolle, JPP (if he doesn't break the bank), Prince, and Thurmond. I'd gut the LBs besides Kennard and maybe Beason. Move on from Jenkins, Patterson, Kuhn, Kiwi.

Not Greg Schiano. His strength at Rutgers was recruitment, which simply doesn't translate as a skill in the NFL. Even with the Scarlet Knights, his actual coaching skills were dubious.

I thought the whole Tampa Bay disaster would have shown that.

I'm not sure why people want to trade Eli. Despite limited at best running success, 1 decent receiver in all of the games this season, and only a marginally improved oline, he's still playing fairly well this season. True, you'll get at least a 1st rounder in a trade--but you're then compelled to spend a first on his replacement, and there's no guarantee that you'll even see QB play at a close-enough level.

No offense guys, but we don't even know who's going to survive this fiasco of a season. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire coaching staff is blown up, and at that point, all bets are off.

I wouldn't even be shocked if there was a major shakeup in the front office.

At that point, you're talking completely different priorities to drafting, and there's no way to tell what they would be.

Right now I think the safe money is on a WR that early, since we don't know where the defense is going (so a DE might not be as high a priority) and a guard isn't really worthy of that high of a pick.

The infamous Coughlin "doghouse" comes to mind... Wilson was a potential home run hitter and he warmed the bench for a long time

The Wilson myth. I still don't get what you guys saw with him--that one Eagle's game when the Eagles had clearly given up the ghost a few games earlier? Some decent kick returns?

The only thing the "doghouse" did to Wilson was keep him out of IR for a year. With stenosis, it was just a matter of when his career ended early.

 

At the end of the day, those guys are Coughlin's responsibility too.

On the other hand, we wouldn't have won anything without Flaherty/Nunn. Sure, we kept them too long, but they proved to be good hires initially.

organizational failure from top to bottom. i really have a hard time finding anyone to give a pass to

Even that is only partly true. It certainly played the primary role, but circumstances like ridiculous amounts of injuries and shortened careers also took its toll. Seubert is a great example--one minute he's playing probowl level, the next his knee is hosed, and his career is done.

 

Agreed.

 

We had the same problem last year in the microcosm of the offense. GIlly was so inept for so many years... and Eli was playing so bad... and the offense AS A WHOLE was so bad... that it became "well, is Eli bad because of Gilly's playcalling, because of shitty players, or because Eli is just bad?"

Yep. Thank god all of that was resolved this year.

Could we wait and see if McAdoo actually accomplishes something before talking about what an upgrade he is? The only thing he's shown so far is that his offense can be good against really shitty teams and sometimes in garbage time. I'm not saying he sucks, but he's not exactly rocking the foundations of NFL coaching, either.

Developing players would actually fall on position coaches, would it not? If that's the case, then you have to wonder if that's where Coughlin has gotten old: specifically Flaherty and Nunn. Flaherty hasn't really developed a player since Koets, and Nunn hasn't gotten anything out of some high draft picks at defensive end. Defensive tackles are a different matter.

The defensive backfield coaches have done an overall good job--yeah, there's Hoseley, but there's Prince, McBride, Cooper Taylor (who looked good before IR), and Will Hill (at least on the field) while he was here. Can't really speak to the offensive coaches outside of Flaherty, since they were all shuffled/replaced this year. You guys are going to hate this, but you're going to have to give Gilbride Jr. some credit for getting anything out of Donnell/Fells, considering Pope's failure to do the same last year.

I think I've been fairly clear about my feelings about the LB coach over the last few years, lol.

I think we're watching a perfect storm of a GM drafting developmental picks (and not necessarily good ones), and position coaches that are no longer able to develop them. And ridiculous catastrophic injuries. With a massive amount of hubris after 2011, which really should have been an alarm, rather than a trophy.

With respect to Coughlin, when you look beyond the SBs, there are 3 division titles, and 5 playoff appearances. Back in 2010, they missed the playoffs even though they were 10-6.

 

Assuming they end 2014 with a losing record, that would be 3 losing seasons out of 11. If a coach was available that could guarantee the same track record of Coughlin's Giants, the bidding war for that guy would be off the charts.

That 2010 season just pisses me off every time I hear "The Giants haven't been in the playoffs in X out of Y seasons." 9 out of 10 times, 10-6 gets you a berth. Especially knowing we should have been 11-5, at least. It's a bullshit statement, even moreso when the time we were in the postseason we won it all.

It's fair to complain about 2012 on, but anything before 2011? Spoiled, whiny bitching. The fact I can even say "spoiled" makes a statement about TC's regime.

you have to have Lbers in order to have a coach though right?

I never expected HOF'ers from this lot. But even Sherman managed to develop something out of Blackburn when he was LB coach.

EDIT: Sheridan. Got my civil war generals mixed up.

 

Dick Vermil... The guy with the Colts... his name escapes me...

You see that? I almost forgot...

Fuck. Dick. Vermeil.

Fuck him in the ass with a 5' dildo attached to the drive shaft of a '72 Plymouth Fury. I want a Mopar V8 twisting that fucker in there until the tears flow: then we'll add some throttle.

I want a human caterpillar in this precise order: Joe Pisarcik, John McVay, Dick Vermeil, and Herman Edwards. If I could make a human pill-bug by attaching the ends together, I'd do that...

But other than that, he's a swell guy.

 

3. Assistant coaches will be fired

With the Giants defense now statistically the worst in the NFL, defensive coordinator Perry Fewell probably will be shown the door at the end of the season. Fewell and special teams coordinator Tom Quinn are believed to have one year remaining on their contracts, and, barring a late-season playoff run, it seems likely the Giants will not bring either back, especially if Coughlin is done, too.

Ain't gonna lie, sporting wood over that thought. Take the LB coach with you, Perry.

Not for nothing, but where the fuck does all this McAdoo praise come from?

 

Their offense is 18th in the league, and they've failed to score over 20 points in 5 of their losses. Even worse, they've consistently been outscored in the second half... a sad indicator that McAdoo isn't making the necessary halftime adjustments.

 

Its awesome that he's not Gilly, but he's not setting the world on fire, either.

I'm not really seeing it, either. I'm not condemning him, but he's not exactly a miracle worker, either.

The only difference I've seen is that Eli isn't making the desperate deep shots that wound up being INTs last year. I don't know if that's smart, or conceding games.

Though not his fault, everything else is pretty much the same results. Oh, and the TE is competent enough to catch a ball that gets to him.

I won't argue that.

I was just thinking about how bad the situation our FA wound up being this year--just about every signing he had this off-season is swathed in bandages.