fishgutmartyr

Agreed a lot are not a whose who of talent, but 36 guys are a lot to replace in one offseason. They already have a lack of depth and needs at starting positions

Fair enough. We'll see how much that list shrinks after the final cut, though. There's a bunch of camp fodder on there.

The original post was about the oline being off the field to nurse injuries, but the brunt of the thread is about Coughlin killing careers by forcing players to play injured?

VG, that high school coach should have had his sorry ass fired.

They have 36 free agents.

PLAYER (36)

POS.

FROM

2015 CAP

STATUS

Eli Manning QB NYG $19,750,000 UFA

Jason Pierre-Paul DE NYG $14,813,000 UFA

Prince Amukamara CB NYG $6,898,000 UFA

Jameel McClain ILB NYG $3,400,000 UFA

Robert Ayers DE NYG $2,437,500 UFA

Calvin Pace OLB NYG $2,250,000 UFA

Cullen Jenkins DE NYG $2,091,668 UFA

Trumaine McBride CB NYG $1,550,000 UFA

Kenrick Ellis DT NYG $1,500,000 UFA

Josh Brown K NYG $1,350,000 UFA

Zak DeOssie LS NYG $1,200,000 UFA

George Selvie DE NYG $1,200,000 UFA

Rueben Randle WR NYG $1,047,432 UFA

Jayron Hosley CB NYG $796,250 UFA

Adrien Robinson TE NYG $756,413 UFA

Brandon Mosley G NYG $735,146 UFA

Markus Kuhn DT NYG $671,474 UFA

Daniel Fells TE NYG $665,000 UFA

Ricky Stanzi QB NYG $660,000 UFA

Mike Harris CB NYG $660,000 RFA

Preston Parker WR NYG $660,000 UFA

Adam Gettis G NYG $585,000 UFA

Josh Gordy CB NYG $585,000 UFA

Victor Butler OLB NYG $585,000 UFA

Larry Donnell TE NYG $585,000 RFA

Chandler Fenner CB NYG $510,000 ERFA

Dominique Hamilton DE NYG $510,000 ERFA

Chris Harper WR NYG $510,000 ERFA

Orleans Darkwa RB NYG $510,000 ERFA

Bennett Jackson CB NYG $435,000 ERFA

Jerome Cunningham TE NYG $435,000 ERFA

Ryan Jones OLB NYG $435,000 ERFA

Marcus Harris WR NYG $318,000 ERFA

Rogers Gaines LT NYG - RFA

James Jones WR NYG - UFA

Jeromy Miles S NYG -http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2016/new-york-giants/

A LOT of those names are not exactly irreplaceable. There's at least a few that might not make it out of training camp this year, let alone worry about losing them next year. And if we must have them, I feel pretty secure in knowing that there won't be much of a bidding war for Adrien Robinson, Jayron Hosley, and Brandon Mosley.

And I wouldn't exactly consider JPP "core" at this point, even if he plays again (I know you didn't use the word "core," bigblue, but your post had that great list). He's no longer a guy you build a defense around--unless he has a miraculous recovery.

The only guys I would lose sleep over being on other teams are Manning and Amukamara, and Prince spends a lot of time on the bench with injuries. There's other players I would prefer keeping, like Randle, McClain, and Ayers, but they're not critical to any other team but ours.

There are 1-year deal guys we might be sorry to see go--or just the opposite.

I'm not even all that sure that the "core" is that critical considering the level of play we've seen in the last 4 years. A core should personify a team, and propel it to wins--where has that been over the last few years?

 

Regarding the off the field stuff, I already suggested that Eli had the other two beat. So no need to beat a dead horse. NY for Roethlisberger...yes, would be questionable in retrospect...but maybe NY helps shape a young Roethlisberger too? Bottom line, one is slightly more mobile, one is slightly more consistent, one is better off the field...there are differences...that's not up for debate. What is up for debate, is HOW different they are. Is Eli really so far ahead of Roethlisberger after 10 years to warrant the cost? That's the question. And really, I think the mere fact that it's up for debate, answers the question. In my opinion, for what we gave up, there should be no question. Eli should be clearly, without debate or any contradictory evidence, beyond Ben both on and off the field. Again, I freely admit to Eli being beyond ben off the field. It's on the field where questions lie.

 

As for Rivers, again, he's certainly a step down from both Ben and Eli. I should've made that more clear. Rivers first full year as a starter was 2006. Tomlinson played with SD until 2009. So, those 2 only overlapped from 2006-2009. In 2006, Rivers led the Chargers to a 14-2 record and a first round playoff bye, to lose by just 3 points to a Tom Brady led Patriots team in the divisional round. In 2007, Rivers led the Chargers to an 11-5 record and the conference title game, facing the Tom Brady led Patriots again. The Chargers lost that game by just 9 points, but admittedly failed to score a TD. In 2008, the Chargers backed into the playoffs with an 8-8 record, but faced a Ben Roethlisberger led Steelers team and lost. 2009, when the Chargers faced the Jets in the playoffs and lost, is about the only unexcusable playoff loss over these years.

With the Steelers, Colts, Patriots, even the Ravens having some darn good teams...the AFC was consistently, more difficult those years than the NFC.

Yes, those Steelers teams were darn good...probably better than the Giants teams most of that period. Certainly better than the 2004-2005 teams, the period when Roethlisberger made his name.

You can't really make light of the off field issues--because the likelihood is that we would be dealing with a post-Roethlisberger team by now, probably for a few years. I highly doubt the same situation here would have permitted him to finish his last contract, let alone get an extension; and longevity (even due to this) certainly is a factor in cost. NY doesn't put up with people that get caught. (When did I get this cynical?)

I'd also like to move on from the cost argument--it's really a myth at this point. Yes, we gave up draft picks, but less than other teams have both before and after that draft to grab the first pick. That, coupled with not knowing who we would have picked and knowing how utterly spectacular the 2005 offseason was with both free agency and the draft, makes me wonder if the "cost" was as big as it appears even on paper. If we have all the picks, do we still grab who we did in free agency? Fewer free agents? Which would we have done without? Would we have drafted players that would have helped? Unanswerable.

There's something to said for simply being on the field as well. A second-string QB hasn't touched the field for the Giants since 2003 (Eli was a starter in-waiting in 2004, but if you want to count that, it's still impressive). Quantity has a quality all it's own. Roethlisberger isn't exactly a delicate snowflake, but he has missed games.

If you're willing to make excuses for River's playoff failures, I hope you make them for Manning as well. I still don't understand why he gets grief over 2005 and 2008.

I like Eli. He's been spectacular for us and he'll likely go down as the best Giant QB ever when he retires. I can't argue that.

 

My ONLY issue with Eli, really isn't that much about Eli as it is about Rivers and Roethlisberger.

 

What we gave up to get Eli when we could've had Ben or Phillip without giving up those picks DEMANDED that Eli be THAT much better than those other two. And folks can throw up all the obscure stats they want, it just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

I think about Roethlisberger as a Giant. Could he have won with the teams Eli had? I think so. Could Rivers have won with the teams Elli had? I think so, though to a lesser extent than Roethlisberger. All these years later, I think I'd rank these three QBs into two slots. Tied at #1 would be Eli and Ben. Not far back at #2 would be Rivers.

 

Now, you look at some of the attitudes and off-field stuff and Eli has that nailed down over the other two.

 

But, then you look at consistency and Eli isn't quite there like the other two.

 

Again, you can look at this group forever and always find where one did slightly better than the other in this, but flip flop it for some other statistic. And because it's like that, I'll just go back to the price to get Eli...it was just too much given the other options.

 

Now, with all that being said, with the offense changing last year and Eli's performance improving, he has a huge chance to sway my opinion. Because if he improves over last year and is more consistent under McAdoo - it will look like Gilbride's system was holding Eli back and it wasn't so much Eli underperforming in spots.

Roethlisberger, maybe. But his teams were built differently than the Giants teams of the past 10 years, so it's anybody's guess; and who knows how things work between him, Gilbride, and Coughlin--especially with his off-field bullshit? Honestly, I don't think he'd survive NY after the motorcycle accident, let alone the rape accusations. Pittsburgh has a completely different head than NY/NJ when it comes to football.

No way with Rivers--do you remember some of the teams that guy had? Both Antonio Gates and Tomlinson leading the league annually, Merriman and Castillo before they fell apart; an incredibly weak division--and he couldn't get it done. That team should have cruised into the playoffs for years, despite Norv Turner. Instead, they managed to make it difficult for themselves, and only made the championship game once with that lineup. What possible reason is there to think Rivers could have taken any of these Giants teams, much less the 2011 team, to win as many Lombardis as Eli?

 

A personnel director also drew the Cutler comparison, saying a team asking Manning to carry its offense with a pass-happy approach would get "more Cutler than consistent play" and that, like other players in the second and third tiers, Manning needs a combination of running game and defense to succeed. There is no shame in that, but it's what separates the best from the good enough.

I really don't care about rankings, but this kind of comment is fucking idiotic--no shit that a QB on any team needs a combination of defense and running game to succeed. Peyton can't do it, Fouts couldn't do it, Brees can't do it--certainly not with any consistency. At best, a QB will be able to carry a team to a Lombardi without a defense or running game 1 or 2 times in a career, and only by playing out of his mind. That's what made 2011 so amazing, and why I have so much respect for John Elway for what he accomplished with Reeve's Broncos. Or Marino's Dolphins, for that matter.

Frankly, this team has asked Eli to win without a running game, defense, or offensive line since 2011. As much as I admired MacKenzie for his time here, he was barely an obstacle his last year here--same with Diehl and Snee in their twilights. The only thing this team has had going for it for a few years now is Eli and a few wide receivers--and the wide receivers have had a hellacious time staying on the field together.

Comparing Manning to Cutler is ridiculous--Cutler is a QB with an attitude problem on an average team. The Giants teams that have actually stayed on the field since 2009 have rarely been average. And I've never heard anyone say something about Manning's attitude--his appearance, sure--but not his attitude.

Nas, I don't get the Roethlisberger love either--other than he benefited from a great line/running game/defense early in his career, which let him win. He looked just as bad during Pittsburgh's rebuild.

Yep... now if he had an ego like Pisarcik or Goldsteyn... remember them... of course you do Gut... now if he had a personality like those two sacks of shit... no one would be raging on him. Kid thought he was Johnny Unitas... Worst thing to happen to him was winning those first two games of his career...one against the 69'ers.

Nonsense-- I still pick on "Dandy" Randy Dean, and I don't think he even had a quote in a paper. I still think he was the worst QB to start for an NFL team, ever.

Yeah the famous Blackout Game... when the lights kept shutting down in half of Giants Stadium... I actually watched that game. But can you imagine how Gifford felt having to listen to Cosell's bullshit about the disgrace to football... Cosell that classic homer... whose lips were so tight on Stealer and Broke Back cock it wasn't funny.

Oh, man, you have my pity--I saw that shit-show, too. Both teams managed to blow field goals in OT, and at a certain point, I just wanted the embarrassment to end, and didn't care who won. Considering how die-hard I was at the time, that says a lot.

True... The Prostitute totally fucked us that year... its one reason why I lost all love for him. When he resurrected in Patsie Land is when I started to call him the Living Whore that he is... But Brown should never have been selected... Gut... he literally sucked. And worse by measure is that he thought he was good...

Like I said, I'm not an apologist for Brown--if you're waiting for me to justify the pick, you might want to get yourself a copy of War and Peace to occupy your time. I'm just saying that he only had Hampton around him, an aging offensive line, and an ancient defense that was still living on past glories. That team was shot, and no amount of denial is going to excuse Young for that.

Nonetheless, Young has 2 superbowls that are unquestionably the result of his work, and that's more than could be said for the other two.

LOL, I totally forgot that Brown also had a raging ego...what a jackass.

Gut... I am torn ya know my abiding Hatred of The Prostitute... a phony yet winning coach... And you are quite right he is a starter and not a finisher. B & H... Brown and Handley have scarred me for life. To take the nucleus of good team and have it desecrated by their ineptness... makes me scream ...no bay at the Moon at night. Yes The Prostitute with his two months before the season starts... my health can't take anymore... no Prostitute it was more like you couldn't share the credit with the guy who didn't fire you after you initial season of horribleness... didn't he go 1 and 15 or was it 3 and 13... both suck beyond all belief. He was the one to say to the owners... give him a chance...he will right the ship. Prostitute is very good about protecting his brand...not by coincidence he has not won it all since severing ties with the Prince of Darkness... the Other Bill...

3-12-1, with the tie being against the Cardinals. That game was so bad neither team deserved a win.

To be fair, by the time Brown took over, that team was already done--Taylor had retired, Banks was ancient, and most of the starters were already well into or past their prime. Right about there picks like Khanavis McGhee started taking their toll. So while you'll never hear me say a good thing about Brown, he wasn't completely the cause of the shitty play we saw. And he was still better than Pisacik, Golsteyn, and Randy Dean.

Handley? The Ego quit after the draft, so all the name coaches were gone. Bellicek was already committed, so whatever Young thought about him is pretty irrelevant. Coughlin already left for BC (imagine him taking over for Parcells!). Handley wasn't an unreasonable choice on paper--he just sucked in the real world. And Young did right in the situation: cut him some slack his first year, canned his sorry ass the second.

Again, he failed the 3rd rebuild, but those first two were gold standards as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't pick Young because of his latter senility and stubbornness... three reasons... The Ultimate QB - Dave Brown; that coach Ray Handley; and then his understandable hatred of The Prostitute Bill Parcells that he purposely sabotaged his return because of said hatred for leaving the Giants in a lurch. Young burned my soul when he made those decisions... he is my Prodigal Son... but unlike the Biblical rendition...there is no coming home for me with George... As an Old Timer like you I get a dispensation for my festering hate... consume me it will... but its mine...

 

He did save the franchise though... so perhaps one day I will release my hate and become TaylorBanksCarsonvanPelt once again... or at least TBCvP...

 

But Gut...Fringe... you don't understand the POWER of the Dark Side...

Oh, I understand the Dark Side--my hatred of the Eagles is like unto the mighty Amazon: murky, filled with deadly creatures. It runs deep and long. I long for the return of Ray Rhodes to the Philly sideline--he is the coach they deserve, not the one they need.

I blame Parcells for the hiring of Handley--an offense that shall never be forgiven, and if Young is responsible for him never being a Giant coach again, then I want to vote for Young a second time for not falling for that raging ego's bullshit again. Yes, Parcells rebuilt teams after the Giants--but when did he ever stick around long enough to finish the job?

Did Young's decisions cause a failure in rebuilding a 3rd time (1979 and 1984--after Parcells fucked the dog)? Sure. It ended a golden age of his creation.

But without him, we might still be reminiscing about guys like Huff and Gifford--and how horrible would that be?

Being an agent for an NFL player must be more frustrating than training squirrels. I mean, how simple can the rules be: 1) don't smoke weed before the draft; 2) don't do stupid, potentially dangerous shit before the contract's signed. It's not like the teams want you to fail a drug test--hell, they announce them. And if you are negotiating for a shit-ton of guaranteed money, you wrap yourself in bubble-wrap. After the contract's signed, then you can blow your hand off. Even Rothlesberger's minimalist brain figured that one out before the motorcycle accident.

I feel bad for the kid, but wow. Until guaranteed money is done, you stick with fucking sparklers, and smile about it.

tch...kids...

Look at where the GMs started, and what they accomplished. Neither Accorsi or Reese had to start with such complete incompetence as Young did. When Young took over in 1979, the team hadn't seen a playoff game since 1963, and the team's owners weren't even on speaking terms. The Giants were in the same category as the Saints, the Bucs, and the Lions. Perennial doormats. The coaches were inept. Out of the players, the only ones that saw pro bowls on any consistent basis were Harry Carson and the punter, Dave Jennings. Occasionally Van Pelt and Kelly.

In 15 years, they had 2 winning seasons. The last one was over half a decade before Young was hired. What he had to accomplish was probably more difficult than starting off with an expansion team--he didn't have luxury to start from scratch, he had to tear down an entrenched culture of failure first, then start from scratch. And do it without a ringing endorsement from the owners. Oh, and do it entirely through the draft, since there really wasn't any such thing as free agency.

Within 3 years, we won a playoff game. Within 5 years, we were playoff contenders annually. And say what you will about the 1990's (they were some boring teams with awful offenses), the bottom line is there were only 4 losing seasons in the entire decade, including one under Accorsi's watch.

True, Young never really got the hang of free agency--but at the time, no one really did (San Fran cheated, Dallas got its rings via Hershel Walker and slowly dwindled throughout that decade). But neither Reese or Accorsi comes close to what Young accomplished. I don't have to criticize either one of them to claim that.

Butch Woolfolk. When you have a 1st round running back in the days of Schembechler's Michigan, you would think that he could gain some yards. Let's just say that if they didn't draft Little Joe in the second round, the 80's would have been far different.

I went Accorsi just because I want to see fishgutmartyr lose his shit.

Nah, I just assume anyone who didn't vote for George Young is too young to know better.

Sadly, the joint they're probably referring to is the knee.

Pugh at left tackle (like some of you guys wanted at the beginning of last year, remember?); Flowers at RT. That puts vet with youth on both sides of the line--Schwartz with Flowers, Pugh with whomever gets the LG spot.

No point in freaking out--we did ok when Diehl replaced Pettigout.

Hey, we're grabbing Canada's top picks at UDFA prices. If even one or two pan out, we just tapped completely unused resources, and got the jump on the rest of the league. I like it.

7th rounder, raw, and from a lower division. If we get a backup out of him, we drafted well. If not, he was a 7th rounder, raw, and from a lower division.

I'm curious about all the Canadian linemen we signed.

I don't see how anyone can really be unhappy with this draft--LT isn't an urgent need so much as guard. Flowers needs coaching? OK, let him play next to Beatty for a year, and fill the hole in the process; while the guard we signed from Canada and the guard we drafted learn the spot. He adjusts to the NFL level of play, stays on the left side, and gets to watch an NFL level LT's technique.

We needed safeties--not only did we get the best one available in the draft, we got him in the second round. Another one in the 4th. And yet another as a UDFA.

We needed a DE--we got a perceived high 2nd-rounder in the third.

As far as I can tell, we got value and need simultaneously. At least in theory.

But honestly, drafts are so mocked and re-mocked even ranking these guys is an exercise in futility. Calling someone a "reach" because they're drafted a little higher in the same round is absurd; since it would depend on who you ask, and when you ask them.

Now, if only there was a running back named "Snatch" this year...our double-entendre goals would be complete.

Giants give up on Cox.

This is such an excellent idea, because we got so much from our last 1st round running back. And the one before that. And the one before...

Basically, Hampton in about 45 years.

I can't wait until mock season is over.

There is zero percent chance of this happening.

Unless he's a sure-fire HOF'er, he won't be touched until at least the second round. Mario Manningham was projected 1st round, did the same shit, and we drafted him in the 3rd. Granted, Manningham wasn't ranked as highly, but the GMs will consider the "stupid factor" of Gregory's actions.

I wouldn't rule him out completely, either. Sure there's Will Hill, who was too stupid to even stay clean knowing about drug tests; but we also kept Tyree after getting busted with a pound of pot in the trunk of his car, and the aforementioned Manningham.

I wonder how much Fewel's dumb-assery had to do with our players looking too fucked up.

Wonder how he does under a different LB coach.