fishgutmartyr

 

Its like I've been saying... we're not a player or two away from being competitive, its more like six or seven. Jerry Reese's four years of shit drafts are going to amount to at least for years of average-at-best play.

 

I'm not sold on Williams at RB either. He has all the physical talent in the world, but is deficient in the most important area a back needs... vision.

It's actually a little worse than that, Seph--we don't really know WHERE we're at.

We keep assuming Schwartz playing would have helped--we don't know that for certain. There was a little hope when he came in for his special guest appearance, but we don't know about his everyday play.

Rolle's play dropped this past year--is it because he is getting old, or because we had Bowman and Chykie Brown playing corner instead of Prince and Thurmond? Especially after he had a great season in 2013. And now we have to put a price on his services.

Ayers did pretty well before he got injured--what do we do with him?

Normally, we would have a pretty good idea about what worked and what didn't last offseason. Because of the injuries, we don't have any idea what panned out. Just a few things that clearly didn't.

You know, I don't know what I'd do this year. Their big FA acquisitions were basically all injured, so you can't really evaluate their impact properly. The second level acquisitions were a mixed bag at best, although if Jerry was brought in as a backup, you can't really say he sucks if you never planned on him playing as many games as he did.

The draft seems like it was good, but you had people playing out of position because of injuries.

We definitely need a guard--maybe two if Schwartz doesn't pan out. We might need a center if Richberg can't beat out Walton (which would be scary). We've got nothing behind Beatty or Pugh. I'm not sold on Donnel. Or Moore. There's a big hole next to Hankins if Bromley doesn't step up, or Jenkins is done. If I were Reese, I'd be dry-heaving over the thought of safety.

Surprise. We need linebackers. But McClain did pretty well considering he was out of his position most of the year, and for the first time in a long time we drafted a decent lb. The rest--maybe Beason at a reduced contract.

I'm not concerned about RB. Jennings will be ok if he doesn't make a habit of injuries. Williams was ok, even if he was a bit one-dimensional. Darkwa I saw only once, but he struck me as a completely different back than the other two--far more slippery, and probably would be a very good compliment to the other backs.

Good luck, Jerry. You're gonna need it.

Yes.

 

He also turned down Jack Mara to continue coaching the Packers when Jim Lee Howell retired.

Can't really blame him for that--he had turned the Packers into a machine at that point, and ya gotta watch it work...he would have been insane to come back to the Giants by then. it would have been like Jim Johnson quitting the Cowboys to join the Giants in 1991. He might have gotten one more championship from those teams, but the window was clearly closing with all the aging players.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150131_How_Lombardi_almost_became_Eagles_coach.html

 

How Lombardi almost became Eagles coach

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Frank Fitzpatrick, Inquirer Staff WriterPosted: Saturday, January 31, 2015, 3:01 AM

image: http://media.philly.com/designimages/partnerIcon-Inquirer-2014.jpg

As Philadelphia's scarred football fans will again be reminded on Sunday, the Eagles have won none of the XLIX Super Bowls.

But had things worked out differently 57 years ago, they might not only possess a Lombardi Trophy or two by now, they might have had Vince Lombardi himself.

Sports history often pivots on seemingly inconsequential acts. And if the legendary coach hadn't abruptly changed his mind in 1958, subsequent NFL history might have had a distinctly green-and-silver hue.

That January, a year before the Green Bay Packers hired him, Lombardi agreed to become the Eagles head coach. Had New York Giants owner Wellington Mara not intervened or Lombardi been less thoughtful, it's easy to imagine Philadelphia and not Green Bay winning five NFL titles in the 1960s, including the first two Super Bowls.

"Lombardi coaching the Eagles. That would have been something, wouldn't it?" Vince McNally Jr., whose father was the Eagles GM in 1958, said this week.

According to Lombardi biographer David Marannis and other sources, the fateful scenario began after the 1957 season.

The defending-champion Giants had blown an East Division title by dropping their final three games. Lombardi, their ambitious 44-year-old offensive coordinator, was frustrated and eager to advance his career.

On Jan. 11, 1958, Eagles general manager Vince McNally fired coach Hugh Devore, whose teams had gone 7-16-1 in two lackluster seasons.

McNally initially wanted Buck Shaw. The two had met many years earlier. When the silver-haired Shaw coached Santa Clara, the Philadelphia-born GM had been an assistant at rival St. Mary's.

Shaw, now at Air Force, had spent the previous three decades coaching in sunny California and he balked at coming East. He'd be interested, he said, only if he could spend off-seasons on the West Coast.

Eagles ownership - a large and often dysfunctional group of local businessmen and civic leaders that the newspapers dubbed the "Happy Hundred" - wouldn't agree to that concession and McNally turned elsewhere.

"It doesn't surprise me that Daddy tried to hire Lombardi," said Katherine McNally, the late GM's daughter. "He knew him very well and he really liked him."

Lombardi was one of the league's best-known and well-respected assistants. He and defensive coordinator Tom Landry were such an effective pair that Giants head coach Jim Lee Howell often joked that his job consisted of making sure the footballs were properly inflated.

But while he'd interviewed for several head jobs, including Wake Forest and Notre Dame, Lombardi remained an assistant.

When McNally contacted him, he was receptive. When the two city-born Catholics quickly agreed on a salary of $22,500, Lombardi was on the verge of accepting.

His interest spiked, McNally called on NFL commissioner Bert Bell - a former Eagles owner - to close the deal.

According to Marannis' "When Pride Really Mattered", Bell telephoned Lombardi at home in New Jersey on a Saturday. Sometime during that conversation, Lombardi agreed to coach the Eagles.

Word traveled quickly in the 12-team league and within a few hours, Mara, the Giants owner, was on the phone with his coordinator. If he'd stay in New York, the Giants would match the Eagles salary offer and increase the amount of his life-insurance policy to $100,000. Besides, Mara told him, Howell was 53 and talking about retirement.

Then he hit Lombardi with the deal-breaker. "They'll never let you run the team they way you want to," Mara said.

He had a point. Philadelphia's ownership was an unwieldy mess. There were factions. There were meddlers. The head of the group, Frank McNamee, even had another job. He was Philadelphia's fire commissioner.

"One day we were having an owners meeting at the Warwick [hotel]," Art Modell, the late Browns owner, told the Daily News in 1995. "Frank was in the middle of a speech and heard fire engines. He stopped talking and ran to the window to see which way they were going."

Lombardi wavered, promising to reconsider. In the meantime, Mara's wife, Ann, phoned Marie Lombardi. "Don't leave," she pleaded.

Devoutly Catholic, Lombardi, at his wife's request, retreated to St. James Church in Red Bank, N.J. He sat alone in a pew for hours.

"Don't pray," Marie had advised him. "Think."

The next morning, Lombardi called Mara.

"I think you're right," he said. "I won't take it."

He stayed with the Giants for another season, Then in January 1959, Green Bay made him coach and GM.

The Eagles eventually convinced Shaw to take the job and in 1960 he led them to an NFL title, ironically with a championship-game victory over Lombardi's Packers.

But Shaw left after that season and Lombardi's genius soon manifested itself in Green Bay. His eye for detail and talent quickly transformed the Packers into a dynasty.

It's true Green Bay had talent when he arrived - Bart Starr, Paul Hornung, Ray Mitschke, Forrest Gregg. But he'd have found some in Philadelphia too. Future Hall of Famers Sonny Jurgensen and Tommy McDonald, for example, were both picked in the '57 draft.

That same draft, by the way, included another historical twist that will torment Eagles fans forever.

Philadelphia, needing a running back, selected Clarence Peaks with the seventh overall selection.

One pick earlier, the Cleveland Browns took Jim Brown.

Holy shit! That puts everything in a whole new perspective--granted they won in 1960, but could you imagine what Lombardi could have done with them? What a freaking nightmare!

Nothing that team has ever done matches the fucking Mara put on that team back then--nothing. And I've seen a good chunk of it--the Fumble, Cunningham's pass after Banks should have sacked him, the loss where we blocked their field goal and they just ran the ball in for a td, them breaking our win streak in 1990, that loss in 2010--it's all penny-ante stuff compared to this.

It's so cathartic--like a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders. No matter how bizzarre, no matter how freaky, a loss to the Eagles will no longer have quite the sting it used to.

I may not even be able to work up a good hate anymore--just pity.

Today is a good day.

Rolle had some bad moments last season - poor angles, blown coverages - but he's still a talented player. Take away the Fewell confusion part of the equation, where he lined up all over the field, and I think we'll see a revived and more productive Rolle under Spags. Don't want to break the bank but I would make an effort to retain him.

He had a great season in 2013. He's played out of position at least a couple of seasons for this team without complaint.

I get that he's older, and he hasn't been all-pro for us, but he hasn't exactly been a waste of money, either.

And if I'm Spags looking at a backfield without Rolle next season, I'm putting a paper back to my face.

 

What?! Fuck that, I'm outta here.

For fuck's sake, Tree, with your opinion, that's practically cheating...

they both blow

Bingo. The only reason to keep even one of them is because there would already be a lot of bodies to replace.

I'm not sure why Spags took the St. Louis job, he could have had any job he wanted after the 2008 season and he picks the St. Louis Rams? Never understood that to this day. He had one good year when Bradford didn't get hurt (2010) and they were one game away from making the playoffs.

 

I think what happened in New Orleans was a shit show of epic proportions. Payton was suspended, Joe Vitt was suspended for half the season and Aaron Kromer took over for 8 games until Vitt came back. You had players who didn't like Spags for whatever reason, but the Saints didn't have much talent on defense either.

 

All we heard from Giants players in 2007-2008 was how willing Spags would listen and adapt to what the players were saying to him. The Faggot Saints players said he didn't listen. I don't buy it, they probably weren't use to Spags coaching style where you don't get 1k to injury an opposing player....

A head-coaching gig just doesn't matter when you're talking about the merits of a guy for DC. There are plenty of really great DCs that absolutely sucked at being a head coach. Wade Phillips was a good DC, and we all saw how he did in Dallas (by the way, Jerruh, it's not too late to bring him back!). I mentioned Bill Arnsparger in another thread, who was absolutely miserable for us as a head coach in the 70's, but went on and had a distinguished career as a DC for decades.

New Orleans? A historically bad defense on a historically fucked team. They played 6 games where the interim head coach was suspended 6 games--how the fuck do you even stand a chance with that? That entire franchise mailed it in that season, and understandably so. There's no way to hold that season against him.

My only worry is that I didn't think Spags was that amazing while he was here. He was good, to be sure--but he was also surrounded in the timeline by Tim Lewis and Bill Sheridan--which would make any defensive coordinator with some semblance of competency look like a GOD in comparison. (Lewis almost destroyed Corey Webster's career before it got off the ground. He deserved firing for that alone.) Truthfully, other than Spagnuolo, you have to go all the way back to Fox to find any defensive coordinator on this team that wasn't better suited to driving a UPS truck or something of that nature.

Personally, I think he'll do okay--some of the problems he's seeing today are similar to what he saw when he took over for Lewis in that Fewell didn't know how to use the players he had. There's also different strengths on this team: the interior of the dline is now the strength of it, not the outside, the CBs are stronger. Still a lot of questions, but there were in 2007 as well.

I expect we wind up in the top half of defenses next season--and we don't consistently blow leads and waste comebacks--and that would make me happy. But I'm not entirely sold that we made the best hire available.

Oh, one more thing--can we stop with the nonsense? Nobody is getting a prize for the best opinion.

He'll be an improvement over Fewell, at the very least in the same way Fewell was an improvement over Sherman. I'm not worried about that.

 

The question is if he's going to enough of an improvement?

Jesus. Sheridan.

I'm getting really good at blocking out bad memories. I hope.

He'll be an improvement over Fewell, at the very least in the same way Fewell was an improvement over Sherman. I'm not worried about that.

The question is if he's going to enough of an improvement?

New York Giants

• Antrel Rolle, S
• Jason Pierre-Paul, DE
• Walter Thurmond, CB
• Stevie Brown, S
• Jacquian Williams, OLB
• Spencer Paysinger, OLB
• Henry Hynoski, FB
• Quintin Demps, S
• Jerrel Jernigan, WR
• James Brewer, G
• John Jerry, G
• Zack Bowman, CB
• Mark Herzlich, ILB

Who stays, and who goes? I'd kinda like Rolle to stick around....see what Spags can do with him.

I'd definitely try to keep JPP and Rolle (because we probably need Rolle more than any other team in the league would). The rest? Meh.

Hynoski is a good FB, but how essential is his position at this point--we weren't able to run with him, so he's basically just telegraphing run plays at this point.

Thurmond might be a more talented player when he's on the field, but I'd probably keep Bowman--because Bowman actually stays on the field. Brown had a bad year, but he might turn it around...might not--we need safeties either way. If we give up Brown and Demps because of a new draft pick and Rolle, I'm more than OK with it. Because even if we keep Rolle, we need to retool. Pray either Behr or Taylor show something...

Jernigan might be a cheap contract, but since he's not shown much in the way of value, that's kind of expensive.

Jerry on a backup contract? OK. But that wouldn't exactly be my first signing.

Linebackers--or at least "guys we call linebackers." I nominate Herzlich as this years "Dan Quinn of the linebacker group." Williams gets hurt a LOT (and already has a concussion), and Paysinger? He actually lost his slot to Herzlich. On the outside. Let that sink in for a moment.

Oh, did I forget to mention James Brewer? Let's hope that was the last time I do.

Weird they promoted his DL assistant over him. Maybe he's actually a retard?

 

Del Rio's HC in Oakland now, so that's one more off the list.

First Jacksonville, now Oakland. Del Rio's fast-tracking himself to a permanent DC career.

 

Or none of them were anything impressive.

Could be, or they were conducted half-heartedly. Who knows?

Kind of bothers me that those other interviews were pretty much bullshit, but still an upgrade.

Would have preferred they shopped around a little more.

Add Del Rio to the list of really nice defensive coaches flying around loose. Figure Fox is getting another HC job--erratic as he has been in his career (at least in Carolina), there's a lot to be said for a coach that got two franchises to the big game. 6 coaching spots, at least one (Jests) is going to try to salvage a QB with it's next coach, and two others are going to try for Fangio and Quinn. That will leave possibly 1 or 2 spots for Allen, Del Rio, Schwartz, and Smith. Assuming both spots are even seeking defense-oriented coaches who failed elsewhere.

Then there's Dick LeBeau, who might be worth signing for 1 or 2 years to groom the next DC. Assuming he doesn't croak in the meantime.

I'm not sure Spagnuolo or Johnson are the best choices under these circumstances.

I don't really have a horse in this race--I don't care if we hire Spags or not.

All I'll say is he's overrated by Giants fans, and underrated by fans of other teams.

His one year at NO was a disaster, but that whole team was headless mess and it was clear before they even played a game that they were going nowhere. Their own players knew it, and played the season accordingly. No one would have done well in that situation--and it's unreasonable to hold that season against him. The NO defense had a terrible season this year, too.

He didn't do a good job with the Rams. But Bill Arnsparger was a shitty head coach, too. And Sam Bradford. Really. Sam Bradford.

He did have a great line in those years with us, although it was halved in 2008. Honestly, he did a pretty damn good job that year, considering he lost Strahan, Osi, Mitchell, and Torbor. Alford had a short season, and Madison only played 7 games. That's a pretty massive hit on the front 7, especially for a team that lived and died by the pass rush.

While I don't think he's Belichick, we were at the very least respectable while he was here; and I wouldn't mind getting to that level again. Then again, if we went in a different direction, I wouldn't cry over that, either.

My preference....

 

She doesn't have Rob Ryan's luxurious mane, but when the defense still sucks, we do get to watch her pout.

 

Agreed.....but it's hard to imagine this defense getting any worse.

 

Just looking at the cast of candidates floating around, every one of them is a guy I would have traded for Fewell in a heartbeat last season.

 

I'd be ok with everyone but Nolan. Atlanta's D made ours look like the Steel Curtain the last two seasons.

Smith or Allen might not be a terrible choice--yeah, I just ruled out Nolan because of Atlanta, but Smith did get that team into the playoffs early on and had a little more on his plate than defense;, and with a coach that could be "retired" at any time, having a former head coach with some defensive knowledge wouldn't be a bad idea.

Actually, Allen is even more intriguing. Considering the "Black Hole" in Oakland could stand for their personnel dept and their cap space, he really didn't do a bad job--and his defenses were at least competitive.

Spags--meh, I could take it or leave it--but still an upgrade.

Johnson at this point scares me--all this time and still a position coach? What's going on there?

I doubt Fangio is going to be a DC this year.

This doesn't make us better, it just gives us a chance. If things stayed the same, there was no chance.

 

My last two feverish hopes:

 

1) That the story is premature; Coughlin completes his evaluations and determines a change at DC is warranted.

2) That Coughlin completes his evaluations, and forces fundamental changes on Fewell, similar to those that occurred in 2011 and 2013 following player interventions.

 

2011:

 

 

 

2013

 

 

 

Coughlin needs to look back to those points in 2011 and 2013, and demand that approach in 2015.

 

However, I doubt that happens.....I expect free rein for Fewell to impose a confusing scheme on his guys which once again drives the team to elimination.

 

But think how great the stats will be once we're eliminated again.

 

Belichick won't come here. George Young doesn't like him.

 

If Young is still making decisions for this franchise, we're in bigger trouble than any of us thought...although that would explain the indecisiveness. Hard to get a good medium nowadays.

I was fine with keeping Coughlin until this nonsense--how anyone can look at our specials and keep Quinn, let alone Fewell is beyond me--and this guy is going to do it!?

The 2010-2011 drafts were almost entirely dedicated to the defense, while the oline disintegrated--and it's Gilbride that isn't here anymore? Maybe it was time for a change on offense, whatever--but what evidence is there that there isn't the same need on the defense? WTF?

I really don't have much in the way of hope for 2015. At best, assuming offensive improvement (which isn't exactly a given), we'll beat teams with terrible defenses, and that's about it. If we play teams that can shut the offense down, we'll be blown out; and the defense will blow the close ones.

I still have hope.

 

LOL! You understand that's my guess, not the definitive word, right? Just don't see them undoing the mechanics that led to such improvement this year, is all I'm saying.

That's fine--I don't have a clue on this, so I was just looking to see if I was worrying for no reason. So long as Manning probably isn't undoing everything he spent last offseason doing, it's good.

 

I doubt it. Sullivan has been a QB coach, a Receivers coach and an Offensive Coordinator. It was also reported that he had a long phone conversation with McAdoo. The two of them had heard good things about each other and hit it off right away. All this suggests to me that Sullivan is adaptable and able to coach as the demand and situation dictates.

ok. Thanks.