YOU DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE...

[Allstarjim]

That the Mets bullpen would hold onto a win for Johan did you? This is a fuggin' broken record. I'm convinced that the bullpen hates Johan with a passion and are determined to not let him get to 10 wins this year.

 

F***!!!

 

Of course, Wagner shows that he really isn't that great against a good hitting teams often times.

[GorillaNJ]

I've been a Wagner supporter, but muthafuck even I can see he will be the Mets downfall this year. The rest of the bullpen is not lights out, but he is supposed to nail it down when the team is up 2.

[GorillaNJ]

[xxi-xxv]

6.1 stellar innings for Johan, just like the old Glavine, you know the OLD one the Mets signed in 2003.

[Allstarjim]

6.1 stellar innings for Johan, just like the old Glavine, you know the OLD one the Mets signed in 2003.

 

 

This is somewhat disingenous. Johan can only pitch as long as Manuel leaves him in the game. He pitched 103 pitches, Manuel could've easily let him finish the 7th inning, and probably the 8th. Johan's track record of going deep into games is much more impressive than Glavine's. But since you mentioned Glavine, I would point out that Glavine's last start was June 10th. I would also point out that Glavine has only finished the 7th inning once this year, and he has not gone into the 8th at all. Shit, in 7 of Glavine's 12 starts he hasn't even made it to the 6th.

 

By contrast, Johan has finished the 8th three times this year, has a complete game, and has finished the 7th in 13 of his 23 starts. He is also 5th in the majors in innings pitched this year. Of those that are in the top ten in this category, Johan has the 3rd lowest ERA with a 2.86, behind only Lincecum (10th in IPs with a 2.71 ERA) and Halladay (1st in IPs with a 2.85 ERA). This indicates he has pitched almost as much as any pitcher in baseball and among his peers, he has been one of the most effective pitchers who have logged a lot of innings.

 

This year not a fair example? We can take it to last year. Glavine finished the 8th inning in only 2 of his 34 starts. He did not once go beyond the 8th. He finished the 7th in 10 of his starts. Johan had 33 starts last year and finished the 8th inning 5 times with a complete game in there. Johan finished the 7th in 20 of his 34 starts. Do the math on that one. I did... it means Johan finished the 7th in about 61 percent of his starts, while Glavine did so in only 29 percent of his. He pitched almost 20 more innings overall than Glavine, even though Glavine had one more start than him in '07.

 

Santana is no Venezuelan Tom Glavine. However, he is at the mercy of pitch counts and the manager's decisions just as every other major league starter in today's era is. Yet he remains one of the most effective and durable pitchers in the game. One needs only look at his game log to see that.

 

For this last start, consider that Manuel may have not let him finish the 7th and limited him to about 100 pitches (he pitched 103) because Johan in his previous start pitched a complete game and a season high 118 pitches. Something should be said for saving your horses for the long haul.

 

This is not on Johan, this is on the bullpen who inexplicably can't finish a game that Johan hands to them, for whatever reason. I believe this is the 6th win Johan would've had but didn't because the bullpen didn't hold a lead. If they don't blow any of those leads, Johan is tied for the major league lead in wins.

 

In summary, JOHAN IS DOING HIS JOB!!!! Time to get off the man's back, xxi.

[RandolphScott]

We all knew Johan didn't go deep into games when the Mets traded for him,

seems kinda stupid to bitch about it now.

[xxi-xxv]

This is somewhat disingenous. Johan can only pitch as long as Manuel leaves him in the game. He pitched 103 pitches, Manuel could've easily let him finish the 7th inning, and probably the 8th. Johan's track record of going deep into games is much more impressive than Glavine's. But since you mentioned Glavine, I would point out that Glavine's last start was June 10th. I would also point out that Glavine has only finished the 7th inning once this year, and he has not gone into the 8th at all. Shit, in 7 of Glavine's 12 starts he hasn't even made it to the 6th.

 

By contrast, Johan has finished the 8th three times this year, has a complete game, and has finished the 7th in 13 of his 23 starts. He is also 5th in the majors in innings pitched this year. Of those that are in the top ten in this category, Johan has the 3rd lowest ERA with a 2.86, behind only Lincecum (10th in IPs with a 2.71 ERA) and Halladay (1st in IPs with a 2.85 ERA). This indicates he has pitched almost as much as any pitcher in baseball and among his peers, he has been one of the most effective pitchers who have logged a lot of innings.

 

This year not a fair example? We can take it to last year. Glavine finished the 8th inning in only 2 of his 34 starts. He did not once go beyond the 8th. He finished the 7th in 10 of his starts. Johan had 33 starts last year and finished the 8th inning 5 times with a complete game in there. Johan finished the 7th in 20 of his 34 starts. Do the math on that one. I did... it means Johan finished the 7th in about 61 percent of his starts, while Glavine did so in only 29 percent of his. He pitched almost 20 more innings overall than Glavine, even though Glavine had one more start than him in '07.

 

Santana is no Venezuelan Tom Glavine. However, he is at the mercy of pitch counts and the manager's decisions just as every other major league starter in today's era is. Yet he remains one of the most effective and durable pitchers in the game. One needs only look at his game log to see that.

 

For this last start, consider that Manuel may have not let him finish the 7th and limited him to about 100 pitches (he pitched 103) because Johan in his previous start pitched a complete game and a season high 118 pitches. Something should be said for saving your horses for the long haul.

 

This is not on Johan, this is on the bullpen who inexplicably can't finish a game that Johan hands to them, for whatever reason. I believe this is the 6th win Johan would've had but didn't because the bullpen didn't hold a lead. If they don't blow any of those leads, Johan is tied for the major league lead in wins.

 

In summary, JOHAN IS DOING HIS JOB!!!! Time to get off the man's back, xxi.

 

First of all Jim, I am going to assume you were just having a bad day to summize at any point I was stating the Mets should have kept Glavine. He is shot, has been shot for a while and was in effect why I referenced the Glavine of 2003 when the Mets got him as compared to Johan. Why so? To exemplify why the mets, yet again get a pitcher who is not what he is supposed to be or was and on the downside

 

BTW Jim, Glavine in his prime was far more a workhorse than Johan ever was, but much like Johan as a Met, we got the later version.

 

As for Santana, if you think he has pitched as to what an ace should you are sadly mistaken. I know, you will cite the pretty ERA and IP, neglecting to factor in the amount of unearned runs scored and drastic decline in his strikeout numbers(in the NL no less) and the constant leads he has surrendered. Here is my question for Met fans, outside that one CG(against the lousy Rockies)when has Johan gone out and outpitched the other team? He has surrendered an inordinate amount of leads and when his apologists are not blaming the bullpen they are blaming the lack of run support. What do I need to see? A game where he outpitches Pettite, or Hamels or Hudson or Smoltz, not the other way around always.

 

Now is this criticism harsh? Yes, it is, he cerainly has not been awful, but here is the thing. He is getting 137.5 million dolars, he wanted to be here, he wanted the big stage. All the met aplogists said at the end of 2007 "if we only had an ace we would never have a bad stretch like that last september". You know what, this guy has shown me nothing to think those statements are true.

 

Now please Jim one thing, read between the lines, I am in no way saying I wanted Glavine here at all, in 2008 or even in 2003 for that matter. It was no stress that yet again, we get the lesser version of what was advertised. YOu can look at all the game logs you want, I will go by what I see and this man has not pitched to what was expected and any Met fan that has seen him live can attest to that.

[RandolphScott]

He can't win when the offense doesn't score for him.

 

If you give up 1 or 2 runs a game your offense should score to win.

 

Oh and as I said before Santana never went deep into games early in his career,

why should we expect anything different now? He has had 7 complete games in his

9 year career.

 

This is pretty much what I expected and I knew the bullpen would blow a ton of games for the guy.

I never expected them to blow this many games, Santana should have 14 or 15 wins right now, but he

doesn't and thats why you are bitching about him. I'm willing to bet if he had 15 wins you'd be happier

than a pig in shit.

[xxi-xxv]

He can't win when the offense doesn't score for him.

 

If you give up 1 or 2 runs a game your offense should score to win.

 

Oh and as I said before Santana never went deep into games early in his career,

why should we expect anything different now? He has had 7 complete games in his

9 year career.

 

This is pretty much what I expected and I knew the bullpen would blow a ton of games for the guy.

I never expected them to blow this many games, Santana should have 14 or 15 wins right now, but he

doesn't and thats why you are bitching about him. I'm willing to bet if he had 15 wins you'd be happier

than a pig in shit.

 

Looking purely at stats, yes he has had a good year.

 

You have seen him enough. Can you honestly say he has looked like an ace, even the Mets best pitcher?

 

When has he outpitched the big time pitcher? I can certainly name more time the big time ace type outpitched him.

 

This is typical Mets, get a guy on the downside. At least they gave up nothing, but IMO he has not even been the best pitcher on the team at various times this year.

 

Here is what I will say about Santana in 2008 and this is to paraphrase Joe Beningo on WFAn, Johan has been good, when has he been better though? IMO that sums it up in a nutshell IMO.

 

By the way, you know how realistic and objective I am and you also know that if he did have 15 wins I would be the firt one to point out that the 15 wins stat is a bit skewed, such as say a DICE K win totals or Pettite win totals.

[jranieli]

Why is there so much bitching about this? Maybe if the offense could score more than 2 runs a game and stop leaving the bases loaded so many times without scoring a run. Delgado is cooling off, Beltran cannot hit, Wright is really slumping, Tatis is not playing enough and there are other problems. I am not happy with the bullpen performance but what else do you expect when you have the bases loaded with no outs and completely fuck it up by not scoring any runs. The other team has all the momentum after that and it always happens. Here is the reality of it all, there is not much clutch hitters on this team. They have struggled all year to get men in from scoring position and it is only going to continue.

[xxi-xxv]

Why is there so much bitching about this? Maybe if the offense could score more than 2 runs a game and stop leaving the bases loaded so many times without scoring a run. Delgado is cooling off, Beltran cannot hit, Wright is really slumping, Tatis is not playing enough and there are other problems. I am not happy with the bullpen performance but what else do you expect when you have the bases loaded with no outs and completely fuck it up by not scoring any runs. The other team has all the momentum after that and it always happens. Here is the reality of it all, there is not much clutch hitters on this team. They have struggled all year to get men in from scoring position and it is only going to continue.

 

JR, I totally agree with you, but here is how stats can skew what we know as reality(and I use this in my point as it pertains to Johan). The 2008 NY Mets are 5th in the league in runs scored. So its not out of the realm for someone purely looking at a piece of paper to say that scoring is not this teams issue, when in reality those of us that have watched the team day in and day out realize otherwise.

 

The same holds true for Santana, not as alarming a reality as your point, but certainly a fact that is hard to deny, despite what a statistical piece of paper says.

[Allstarjim]

JR, I totally agree with you, but here is how stats can skew what we know as reality(and I use this in my point as it pertains to Johan). The 2008 NY Mets are 5th in the league in runs scored. So its not out of the realm for someone purely looking at a piece of paper to say that scoring is not this teams issue, when in reality those of us that have watched the team day in and day out realize otherwise.

 

The same holds true for Santana, not as alarming a reality as your point, but certainly a fact that is hard to deny, despite what a statistical piece of paper says.

 

 

XXI, I am not saying you preferred Glavine over Johan. I never meant to imply that, first of all. The whole reason I mentioned the two together is that you have called him the Venezuelan Tom Glavine, because he didn't go deep into games. Clearly, his results show he is not Tom Glavine-like.

 

My point is only that Johan has been better this year, and better at going deep into games, than any season we had with Glavine.

 

I also disagree with you that he is on the downside of his career, and also for your assertion that stats don't matter. Stats are numerical data that explain results. And those results have shown that Johan has been an ace. Maybe you expected him to throw 95-97 mph gas, and lead the league in strikeouts. I do not. I am only interested in how many runs he allows the other team to score. By that criterion, Johan has been ace-worthy. And Johan is only 29 years old. I think he has plenty of great years left.

 

Another worthless stat I will give you is that only 3 starts has Johan not gone at least 6 full innings. One of those starts he was only 1 out shy of completing the 6th. See, it's what Johan DOESN'T do that is just as important as what he does do. And what he doesn't do is leave the game to the bullpen to get 10+ outs very often at all. The majority of the time, when he leaves the game, he leaves with a lead, and the with the bullpen responsible to get 6 or 7 outs.

 

I also disagree with the assertion that he doesn't go deep into games. When the majority of the time, he completes the 7th, that is deep into the game in this era. Quite simply put, the game has changed, and unless your name is Roy Halladay, you are simply not going to go the distance very often anymore. It's a philosophical change in game management in baseball, it has nothing to do with Johan's ability to go deep into games. When you are 5th in all of MLB in innings, you are going deeper into games than 97-99% of all of the pitchers in MLB. That's a fact, jack.

 

Johan doesn't compete against the other team's pitcher. He competes the other team's hitters. The results have been a paltry BAA of .238, and few walks, resulting in a WHIP of 1.17. The idea that Johan is somehow responsible for outpitching the other team's ace pitcher is ridiculous. The hitters are responsible for taking care of the other team's ace, not Johan. Johan has given his team a better than good chance to win in almost every start, and in most of those starts, either the offense gives him jack shit, or the bullpen blows the lead.

 

You also can't compare Glavine of the early to mid 90's to Johan because the game has changed. But if you must, however, only 3 times has Johan had a season ERA as low or lower than Johan THIS YEAR. This is a Hall of Fame pitcher we are talking about, throughout his prime, was he not an ace? Because Johan has been as good if not better than Glavine at any point in his career.

 

By the way, Johan's complete game was against the Cardinals, a very good hitting team, not the Rockies.

 

Johan has battled and battled very well. If you can just admit that this is not on Johan, we can put this to bed. Johan is as good or better than any pitcher we've had since Doc Gooden or David Cone. Just let that sink in and tell me we made a bad investment.

[xxi-xxv]

XXI, I am not saying you preferred Glavine over Johan. I never meant to imply that, first of all. The whole reason I mentioned the two together is that you have called him the Venezuelan Tom Glavine, because he didn't go deep into games. Clearly, his results show he is not Tom Glavine-like.

 

My point is only that Johan has been better this year, and better at going deep into games, than any season we had with Glavine.

 

I also disagree with you that he is on the downside of his career, and also for your assertion that stats don't matter. Stats are numerical data that explain results. And those results have shown that Johan has been an ace. Maybe you expected him to throw 95-97 mph gas, and lead the league in strikeouts. I do not. I am only interested in how many runs he allows the other team to score. By that criterion, Johan has been ace-worthy. And Johan is only 29 years old. I think he has plenty of great years left.

 

Another worthless stat I will give you is that only 3 starts has Johan not gone at least 6 full innings. One of those starts he was only 1 out shy of completing the 6th. See, it's what Johan DOESN'T do that is just as important as what he does do. And what he doesn't do is leave the game to the bullpen to get 10+ outs very often at all. The majority of the time, when he leaves the game, he leaves with a lead, and the with the bullpen responsible to get 6 or 7 outs.

 

I also disagree with the assertion that he doesn't go deep into games. When the majority of the time, he completes the 7th, that is deep into the game in this era. Quite simply put, the game has changed, and unless your name is Roy Halladay, you are simply not going to go the distance very often anymore. It's a philosophical change in game management in baseball, it has nothing to do with Johan's ability to go deep into games. When you are 5th in all of MLB in innings, you are going deeper into games than 97-99% of all of the pitchers in MLB. That's a fact, jack.

 

Johan doesn't compete against the other team's pitcher. He competes the other team's hitters. The results have been a paltry BAA of .238, and few walks, resulting in a WHIP of 1.17. The idea that Johan is somehow responsible for outpitching the other team's ace pitcher is ridiculous. The hitters are responsible for taking care of the other team's ace, not Johan. Johan has given his team a better than good chance to win in almost every start, and in most of those starts, either the offense gives him jack shit, or the bullpen blows the lead.

 

You also can't compare Glavine of the early to mid 90's to Johan because the game has changed. But if you must, however, only 3 times has Johan had a season ERA as low or lower than Johan THIS YEAR. This is a Hall of Fame pitcher we are talking about, throughout his prime, was he not an ace? Because Johan has been as good if not better than Glavine at any point in his career.

 

By the way, Johan's complete game was against the Cardinals, a very good hitting team, not the Rockies.

 

Johan has battled and battled very well. If you can just admit that this is not on Johan, we can put this to bed. Johan is as good or better than any pitcher we've had since Doc Gooden or David Cone. Just let that sink in and tell me we made a bad investment.

You are completely missing the point so I will simplify it by what I said before to paraphrase Joe Beninigo on WFAN. Johan has been good when has he been better?

 

I guess that stats also tell you that the Mets have had no trouble scoring runs this year, hell they are 5th in the league in runs scored and 4th in average runs/game. No problem there.

 

I am sorry, I go by what I see and what I see is a pitcher who is not what he use to be. If you think he is in any way as good as the good seasons that DOC and Cone had in say 85 or 88 you are sadly mistaken. I cannot even say that when at times this year he has not even been his staffs best pitcher.

 

BTW I am not the only Met fan that feels this way, people who see this team day in and day out talk of it all the time on sports radio here in NY. I am sorry Jim, he has not pitched as well as what you claim the numbers show, he just has not.

 

You can throw all the stats at me all you want(I proved how they are meaningless in terms of the Mets offense)the bottom line is this, people such as myself, writers, radio types etc who have seen each of this guys starts are in the realization he has been nothing better than goog. I will say it again, JOhan has been good, when has he been better?

 

You are correct in your assesment that he competes against the other teams hitters, but there are times that all aces, just take the hill, say ge me a run and we will win. We have yet to see that, I saw that plenty from say a Cone or Gooden.

 

Since you love stats so much, explain to me the sharp decline in strikeouts, yet facing NL hitters? I did not expect 97 mph heat and strikeouts all the time, I expected on par with what his career had been to that point, I expected all this hoopla that the Mets finnally have an ace and I will say it again, he has been good when has he been better?

[gateb]

C.C. hasn't made things any easier for johan. i've defended johan all year and i'll probably continue to but he's set the standard for exactly what an impact ace should do when he goes to the NL...

[feefifoefum]

C.C. hasn't made things any easier for johan. i've defended johan all year and i'll probably continue to but he's set the standard for exactly what an impact ace should do when he goes to the NL...

 

Neither has Dan Haren.

[xxi-xxv]

terrific points GATEB and 86er. Please do not get me wrong, Johan has been good, but I am sorry if you have seen this team day in and day out, watched him pitch against certain other pitchers you realize he has been good, hardly great. Billy Wagner has 7 blown saves for christs sake each pitche on this staff owes him punch in the face, we can blame a lot on the pen, we can blame a lot on the offense(despite what the stats say ) and we can blame all sorts of things, at the end of the day Johan Santana has been good, not great and we are paying him to be great. Maybe this is what people expected and thats fine, but I am sorry this is not what was advertised or expected(and no I did not expect 97 MPH and strikeouts every game).

 

In a discussion I had with Golfinguy I commented that maybe the NY adjustment has affected him some, because I do think that that is an issue for the star player taking the big contract here. The players that have been affected in year one of that situation in a new contract is countless. Fom Beltran, to CLemens, to Arod to Hampton, the adjustment to NY period has not been kind to a lot of good players. I believe this to be true and I think Johan will be better, I just think he is not what he was 2-3 years ago and that scares me some.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, which has just occured to me today. This guy came to this team that suffered one of the most unimagineable collapses in history. He was claimed to be the guy that will "not allow a losing streak to continue" and "the ace the Mets have needed for a long time". Thats a shit load of pressure for any pitcher to take, combine that with being in NY and not say Milwaukee like CC and you could see why he has not been as good. IMO these are more valid points as to what we have actually seen then what some piece of paper says. I do believe he will be better.

 

I will stand by my point that JOhan Santana has been a tad of a disappointment, but overall good for the team. He has had some bad luck(as have all th Met starters with this pen and utter POS of a closer we have), but he has not been great. Hopefully, and I believe this to be the case he will be better. I suspect we soon shall see him run off some wins in a row and IMO he is due and the nerves of his situation should be over by now.