Drafting Need versus BPA

[HOUND]

There's been a lot of griping about our first round draft choice this year. Most critics point to our already deep well of talent at the Defensive End position as argument against drafting Kiwanuka. Others who have warmed to the pick defend it as simply a case of taking the best player available. Prior to the draft several messageboard draftniks defended the concept of taking best player available, which is why I was so surprised at the negative reaction to the Kiwanuka pick. The Giants shrewdly traded down a few picks but remained in position to draft a quality player. By picking up extra selections it allowed them to later trade up and aggressively select WR Sinorice Moss. Now the one thing most everybody seems to agree with was that trading back was a solid move on our part. There didn't appear to be a player that appealed to us (unless you wanted RB/WR in the first) so moving back a few slots and collecting 2 picks has been well recieved. However once Kiwi was chosen, the concensus reaction was negative.

 

I think posters need to put this draft in perspective before deciding to bash the pick. Dating back to 1996, the player the Giants have spent their first pick on has addressed a need.

 

96 - DE Cedric Jones

97 - WR Ike Hilliard

98 - SS Shaun Williams

99 - LT Luke Petitgout

00 - RB Ron Dayne

01 - CB Will Allen

02 - TE Jeremy Shockey

03 - DT William Joseph

04 - QB Philip Rivers (traded for Manning)

05 - CB Corey Webster

 

In every year the Giants were fortunate in that a player they were high on, who also carried a 1st round grade, just happened to be available, at that selection. In multiple years we even traded up to address a need. Philip Rivers could be viewed as an exception but I think you could still make an argument that there was a need at QB. We'd seen the best of Collins, he wasn't cheap, and we were in position to draft a franchise QB. I'd still say that draft fit in line with addressing need as opposed to taking Best Player Available. But pretty much every year, it wasn't much of a surprise who the Giants were targeting. The pick was predictable.

 

So this year, we went way off course and took a talented guy at a position that wasn't a priority. Mistake? Maybe. Or could it also be a result of the overall team being far better than recent years and thus the need to plug holes wasn't nearly as urgent. In that scenario the front office has the luxury of picking talent not position.

 

However it's also worth noting that this is the first time in MANY years that the highest rated players at our areas of biggest need didn't match up with our draft positioning. There simply wasn't a Defensive Tackle or a cornerback that was worth the position we were drafting from. Or the prospect that was available came with character or off-field concerns, something the Giants have taken much more seriously of late.

 

So you can look at this a couple of ways. First, we've gotten much better as a team. In previous years we had so many holes to fill it was easy to find a highly rated player at a need position simply because we had a lot of needs. That's no longer the case.

 

Second, we simply found ourselves in a position where there was a player who was far too talented to pass up. His selection was likely made easier by the fact that there wasn't a "need guy" appropriate at the spot.

 

Lastly, maybe we were unable to find another trade partner that would've allowed us to drop even further back so we took the best guy on our list.

 

In every scenario, I think the good outweighs the bad. For those that want to simply bash the decision based on our postional depth, I'd ask, did the Saints make a mistake drafting Reggie Bush? They already had a franchise running back, who had signed a contract extension a year ago and isn't close to retirement. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush (you could make the same argument there with Domanick Davis) and the Saints followed it up by drafting Mario Williams. Would that have been a mistake by New Orleans? They've got gaping holes throughout their roster. However the one position they appear set at is Defensive End with Charles Grant and Will Smith. In both cases, both teams would've been effectively taking Best Player Available and few would've criticized them for it. Yet around here, where the starter at the position has maybe 2 effective years remaining, people react as if the sky is falling.

 

I simply think people need to step back and take a much broader view of the selection as well as our recent draft history.

 

*edited to fix '03 draft

[Frank_Grimes]

I think you could probably make an arguement that some of those players were also BPA's and fit a need position

[lemmiwinks]

There's been a lot of griping about our first round draft choice this year. Most critics point to our already deep well of talent at the Defensive End position as argument against drafting Kiwanuka. Others who have warmed to the pick defend it as simply a case of taking the best player available. Prior to the draft several messageboard draftniks defended the concept of taking best player available, which is why I was so surprised at the negative reaction to the Kiwanuka pick. The Giants shrewdly traded down a few picks but remained in position to draft a quality player. By picking up extra selections it allowed them to later trade up and aggressively select WR Sinorice Moss. Now the one thing most everybody seems to agree with was that trading back was a solid move on our part. There didn't appear to be a player that appealed to us (unless you wanted RB/WR in the first) so moving back a few slots and collecting 2 picks has been well recieved. However once Kiwi was chosen, the concensus reaction was negative.

 

I think posters need to put this draft in perspective before deciding to bash the pick. Dating back to 1996, the player the Giants have spent their first pick on has addressed a need.

 

96 - DE Cedric Jones

97 - WR Ike Hilliard

98 - SS Shaun Williams

99 - LT Luke Petitgout

00 - RB Ron Dayne

01 - CB Will Allen

02 - TE Jeremy Shockey

03 - QB Philip Rivers (traded for Manning)

04 - CB Corey Webster

 

In every year the Giants were fortunate in that a player they were high on, who also carried a 1st round grade, just happened to be available, at that selection. In multiple years we even traded up to address a need. Philip Rivers could be viewed as an exception but I think you could still make an argument that there was a need at QB. We'd seen the best of Collins, he wasn't cheap, and we were in position to draft a franchise QB. I'd still say that draft fit in line with addressing need as opposed to taking Best Player Available. But pretty much every year, it wasn't much of a surprise who the Giants were targeting. The pick was predictable.

 

So this year, we went way off course and took a talented guy at a position that wasn't a priority. Mistake? Maybe. Or could it also be a result of the overall team being far better than recent years and thus the need to plug holes wasn't nearly as urgent. In that scenario the front office has the luxury of picking talent not position.

 

However it's also worth noting that this is the first time in MANY years that the highest rated players at our areas of biggest need didn't match up with our draft positioning. There simply wasn't a Defensive Tackle or a cornerback that was worth the position we were drafting from. Or the prospect that was available came with character or off-field concerns, something the Giants have taken much more seriously of late.

 

So you can look at this a couple of ways. First, we've gotten much better as a team. In previous years we had so many holes to fill it was easy to find a highly rated player at a need position simply because we had a lot of needs. That's no longer the case.

 

Second, we simply found ourselves in a position where there was a player who was far too talented to pass up. His selection was likely made easier by the fact that there wasn't a "need guy" appropriate at the spot.

 

Lastly, maybe we were unable to find another trade partner that would've allowed us to drop even further back so we took the best guy on our list.

 

In every scenario, I think the good outweighs the bad. For those that want to simply bash the decision based on our postional depth, I'd ask, did the Saints make a mistake drafting Reggie Bush? They already had a franchise running back, who had signed a contract extension a year ago and isn't close to retirement. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush (you could make the same argument there with Domanick Davis) and the Saints followed it up by drafting Mario Williams. Would that have been a mistake by New Orleans? They've got gaping holes throughout their roster. However the one position they appear set at is Defensive End with Charles Grant and Will Smith. In both cases, both teams would've been effectively taking Best Player Available and few would've criticized them for it. Yet around here, where the starter at the position has maybe 2 effective years remaining, people react as if the sky is falling.

 

I simply think people need to step back and take a much broader view of the selection as well as our recent draft history.

[HOUND]

I think you could probably make an arguement that some of those players were also BPA's and fit a need position

 

Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot.

[Martin]

Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot.

 

 

Thats true ! I will say this speaking of william joseph without clancy or a

vet FA william joseph will be closely watched with a microscope!!!

[parlintm]

Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot.

 

Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick:

 

25. William Joseph

26. Kwame Harris

27. Larry Johnson

28. Andre Woolfork

29. Nick Barrett

30. Sammy Davis

31. Nnnamdi Asomugha

32. Tyler Brayton

33. Eric Steinbach

34. Boss Bailey OLB

35. Charles Tillman

36. Eugene Wilson

37 Jon Stinchcomb

38 Al Johnson

39 Rashean Mathis

40 E.J. Henderson

41 Bennie Joppru

42 Ken Hamlin

43 Pisa Tinoisamoa

44 Taylor Jacobs

45 Bethel Johnson

46 Drayton Florence

47. Karika Mitchell

48 Kris Kelsey

49. Eddie Moore

50. Bruce Nelson

51 Terry Pierce

52. Chaun Thompson

53. Victor Hobson

54. Anquaan Boldin

55. Bryan Scott

56. OSI UMENYIORA

 

He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity.

[gateb]

Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick:

 

25. William Joseph

26. Kwame Harris

27. Larry Johnson

28. Andre Woolfork

29. Nick Barrett

30. Sammy Davis

31. Nnnamdi Asomugha

32. Tyler Brayton

33. Eric Steinbach

34. Boss Bailey OLB

35. Charles Tillman

36. Eugene Wilson

37 Jon Stinchcomb

38 Al Johnson

39 Rashean Mathis

40 E.J. Henderson

41 Bennie Joppru

42 Ken Hamlin

43 Pisa Tinoisamoa

44 Taylor Jacobs

45 Bethel Johnson

46 Drayton Florence

47. Karika Mitchell

48 Kris Kelsey

49. Eddie Moore

50. Bruce Nelson

51 Terry Pierce

52. Chaun Thompson

53. Victor Hobson

54. Anquaan Boldin

55. Bryan Scott

56. OSI UMENYIORA

 

He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity.

Good point, aside from Boldin and Johnson in that group, there is no one I'm really that too high on at least as of now.

[parlintm]

Good point, aside from Boldin and Johnson in that group, there is no one I'm really that too high on at least as of now.

 

Thats the point. And this is even a few years after the draft. 95% of those guys will never make it in the league so to have a solid starter and a pro-bowler is pretty solid.

[HOUND]

Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick:

 

25. William Joseph

26. Kwame Harris

27. Larry Johnson

28. Andre Woolfork

29. Nick Barrett

30. Sammy Davis

31. Nnnamdi Asomugha

32. Tyler Brayton

33. Eric Steinbach

34. Boss Bailey OLB

35. Charles Tillman

36. Eugene Wilson

37 Jon Stinchcomb

38 Al Johnson

39 Rashean Mathis

40 E.J. Henderson

41 Bennie Joppru

42 Ken Hamlin

43 Pisa Tinoisamoa

44 Taylor Jacobs

45 Bethel Johnson

46 Drayton Florence

47. Karika Mitchell

48 Kris Kelsey

49. Eddie Moore

50. Bruce Nelson

51 Terry Pierce

52. Chaun Thompson

53. Victor Hobson

54. Anquaan Boldin

55. Bryan Scott

56. OSI UMENYIORA

 

He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity.

 

 

That's sorta what I'm saying. In just about every draft, our first rounder was a no brainer. We had a need, the player in that position was among the highest rated. It simply made sense. This is the first year in a long time where that hasn't been the case. I really think that's the bulk of the reasoning behind the negative reaction but I'mt trying to point out, that it's not a reason to be upset. In this draft, I think we'd have more reason for anger is we had actually chased a position. Would several of you have preferred Kelly Jennings, CB, Miami instead? Not only would we have been falling victim to a run at the position (that would've been the 5th corner taken in the top 25), I don't think it's a stretch to say that Kiwanuka is the far more talented player and has a much higher upside. I don't even think Jennings should've been selected in round 1. Instead we got the guy who many had as the 2nd rated Defensive End. I really can't be upset about that.

[Barens]

I didn't mind adding another DE in the slightest, I just wasn't so high on Kiwi. If our pick had been Tamba Hali or if we had found another DE in the 3rd or fourth round, I wouldn't have minded.

 

But I may have critiqued Kiwi too harshly, considering the knee and shoulder injury he played through this season. But when the Giants PR team uses that as a crutch, sometimes it just sounds like the same old song that we hear almost annually. But I could have expected too much from him when he did not play that well against Boise State, and then went on to have a less than stellar Senior Bowl week.

[Money]

I wrote a pretty good article last year on the prioritization of BPA over need. I wish I had saved it (I save a lot of my original threads/essays), because it was well-received. I think I applied mathematical theory and shit. Dammit, where is Tat_2_Tony when I need him...

[mstrahan22_1/2]

here's a good article on it

 

i think my opinion on this subject has already been established several times so i don't see the need for saying it again.