Its the Nats

[xxi-xxv]

I know I know, I am too hard on him. It will wind up as a quality start, the stats are good blah blah frigging blah. All I ask is can our 137 million dollar man not go out and a)surrender a 2-0 lead to this awful putrid offense in the first inning and b)give up 6 hits through 4 innings? Is that fucking so much to ask?

 

You can all tell me till I am blue in the face(which thankfully I will be in 3 weeks when football starts)that Santana has been good. He has not pitched like an ace, I am sorry. I am not asking him to be CC Sabathia, but how about maybe a few starts like him?

[xxi-xxv]

I think my point has been clearly hammered home tonight. Today on WFAN they said the Mets need an ace like performance from Johan, and as we have seen all year, we have not seen it. 8 hits and 3 runs to the Nats through 6.1 now, sorry folks that aint cutting it!

[gateb]

a few nights ago CC threw a CG shutout against these same nats.

[jranieli]

And three runs against Odalis Perez, let me say that again, Odalis Perez.

[RandolphScott]

And three runs against Odalis Perez, let me say that again, Odalis Perez.

 

 

Bob Gibson?

[xxi-xxv]

And three runs against Odalis Perez, let me say that again, Odalis Perez.

 

When is JOhan gonna take ANY LEAD let alone a 2 run and the a 1 run vs the immortal Ryan Langerhans and make it stand up?

 

When he is gonna do what JOba did in Boston a fe weeks ago?

 

All the Johan apologist wanna cite the pretty stats, well the stats say the Mets score more runs then all but 4 teams in the NL. Not saying that means shit(jut like Johans pretty stats).

 

Just once I wanna see him say "3 runs, shit all I needed was 1 fellas".

[jranieli]

Is Acta a moron? Why the hell would he keep Bergmann in there for that long, just to embarrass him?

[gateb]

Is Acta a moron? Why the hell would he keep Bergmann in there for that long, just to embarrass him?

their pen is more worn out than ours.

 

and to say this type of game was needed was an understatement.

 

go brian stokes!

[xxi-xxv]

speaking of pens, this idea of moving Maine to the pen is assinine. Who is not to say it ruins him for good. Guy has proven he can now be a consisten double digit wis starter. Fucking Heilman has been ruined by their insistence to make him a reliever, they better leave well enough alone.

[Jay Lesner]

FIRST PLACE

 

 

[jranieli]

Who wants to put some money on that the Mets blow this game?

[xxi-xxv]

Who wants to put some money on that the Mets blow this game?

 

Bet you an internet penny that the Mets win

[jranieli]

Bet you an internet penny that the Mets win

 

Deal

[Jay Lesner]

XXI wins

[Allstarjim]

speaking of pens, this idea of moving Maine to the pen is assinine. Who is not to say it ruins him for good. Guy has proven he can now be a consisten double digit wis starter. Fucking Heilman has been ruined by their insistence to make him a reliever, they better leave well enough alone.

 

You could not be more wrong. First, Heilman never has proven anything as a starter at the major league level, and has had pretty good success as a reliever for the majority of his career, so he is a bad example to use here. Secondly, everyone knows the bullpen is the achilles heel of this team. There is simply no where to turn for a reliable 8th inning guy, and to top it off, who knows what Wagner has left this season. We cannot count on Sanchez, Feliciano, or Heilman. Who is going to get the big outs down the stretch and in the playoffs? We need someone to step in that role. Maine is that guy. He throws gas, has a high strikeout rate, and has been very good in short starts like today, 5 innings and no ERs. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they keep him as a reliever. But down the stretch, and especially in the playoffs (when no fifth starter is needed), we need someone to get outs. Sanchez at times hasn't been able to get anyone out for crying out loud.

 

Next year, I agree with you, he goes back to being a starter. But down the stretch and for the playoffs, he needs to be that 7th and 8th inning guy to dominate, because we don't need a 5th starter (in the playoffs), and we desperately need a bullpen guy who can do just that... get big outs late in games. This is by necessity, not for any other reason. In fact, I think Pedro may see some innings out of the 'pen in the playoffs as well. But Maine needs to be the guy who steps up in that role, with Johan, Perez, and Pelf being the starters. We cannot win the World Series or even the National League pennant with our current bullpen. With Maine in there, we have a chance.

 

 

[xxi-xxv]

You could not be more wrong. First, Heilman never has proven anything as a starter at the major league level, and has had pretty good success as a reliever for the majority of his career, so he is a bad example to use here. Secondly, everyone knows the bullpen is the achilles heel of this team. There is simply no where to turn for a reliable 8th inning guy, and to top it off, who knows what Wagner has left this season. We cannot count on Sanchez, Feliciano, or Heilman. Who is going to get the big outs down the stretch and in the playoffs? We need someone to step in that role. Maine is that guy. He throws gas, has a high strikeout rate, and has been very good in short starts like today, 5 innings and no ERs. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they keep him as a reliever. But down the stretch, and especially in the playoffs (when no fifth starter is needed), we need someone to get outs. Sanchez at times hasn't been able to get anyone out for crying out loud.

 

Next year, I agree with you, he goes back to being a starter. But down the stretch and for the playoffs, he needs to be that 7th and 8th inning guy to dominate, because we don't need a 5th starter (in the playoffs), and we desperately need a bullpen guy who can do just that... get big outs late in games. This is by necessity, not for any other reason. In fact, I think Pedro may see some innings out of the 'pen in the playoffs as well. But Maine needs to be the guy who steps up in that role, with Johan, Perez, and Pelf being the starters. We cannot win the World Series or even the National League pennant with our current bullpen. With Maine in there, we have a chance.

 

Heilman has been successful as a reliever? You, who cite stats as something we should pay attention to think he has been successful, go look at the numbers he has had over the past year and a half as a reliever, they are downright scary and its actually even scarier to think that this team has been able to play well in spite of such a huge reliance on him. Heilman has made no secret of the fact that he does not want to relieve, he has never liked the role and I believe will probably go somewhere else and start. Yes you are correct, he has never proven anything as a starter(except a 1 hit shutout vs the Marlins back in 05), but the guy just wants to be a starter. I believe it was as recent as a few weeks ago his former coach at Notre Dame said he feels Aaron is better suited to be a starter and still thinks like a starter. Not saying he should be, but this is more an emphasis on why its just not so easy to take a guy who thinks like as starter and automatically just think that that translates to being a reliever.

 

Now as for Maine, you might be the first Met fan I have heard that actually agrees with this silly idea. First off, Maine is not throwing gas nor getting these strikeouts that you mention. His velocity yesterday was down 4-5 mph and he obviously is a bit sore. Second of all and more importantly, this is a guy who has proven to be a very good majoe league starter, just might yet again win 15 games, why and I going to mess with that? Third and more importantly, the guy has a bum shoulder, that obviously gave him some problems, do I need one of my potential 2008 and beyond starters injuring his arm further with the burdens of pitching 2-3 days in a row and the work that is needed in preparing to do so? (i.e bullpen warmups etc) and most importantly and this should be the #1 reason that NO ONE wants to do this, what if he does not succeed in this role and it messes him up going forward as a starter? The risk is not worth the potential reward.

 

Now as far as a playof scenario goes, yes I agree Maine would be a very good candidiate to go to the pen. Not now though, not when the Met starters have been consistently good the past month. Too risky now and probably that reason alone is what OMAR and MANUEL will not do it.

[gateb]

i was pretty dissappointed by maine as a starter this year. it seems like he doesn't really have a second plus pitch that he can strike hitters on. he had a lot of success the first half of the year in 07 but the last half he wasnt economical with his pitches. Now he's having a shoulder problem.

 

The guy does look a little too skinny to be a consistent year in year out pitcher too.

[xxi-xxv]

i was pretty dissappointed by maine as a starter this year. it seems like he doesn't really have a second plus pitch that he can strike hitters on. he had a lot of success the first half of the year in 07 but the last half he wasnt economical with his pitches. Now he's having a shoulder problem.

 

The guy does look a little too skinny to be a consistent year in year out pitcher too.

He has double digit wins for the second straight year and missed 2weeks, I do not see the disappointment.

 

I think the lack of second pitch has a lot to do with the shoulder. He looked great this past spring andApril, seems he has lost a bit but is still battling. Might wind up with 15 wins again. ERA is in the 3's. Pretty good IMO.

[gateb]

He has double digit wins for the second straight year and missed 2weeks, I do not see the disappointment.

 

I think the lack of second pitch has a lot to do with the shoulder. He looked great this past spring andApril, seems he has lost a bit but is still battling. Might wind up with 15 wins again. ERA is in the 3's. Pretty good IMO.

I think my expectations were just too high for John heading into the year.

 

I still hope he can improve a lot in the next few years. Watching him pitch is really frustrating.

[Allstarjim]

Heilman has been successful as a reliever? You, who cite stats as something we should pay attention to think he has been successful, go look at the numbers he has had over the past year and a half as a reliever, they are downright scary and its actually even scarier to think that this team has been able to play well in spite of such a huge reliance on him. Heilman has made no secret of the fact that he does not want to relieve, he has never liked the role and I believe will probably go somewhere else and start. Yes you are correct, he has never proven anything as a starter(except a 1 hit shutout vs the Marlins back in 05), but the guy just wants to be a starter. I believe it was as recent as a few weeks ago his former coach at Notre Dame said he feels Aaron is better suited to be a starter and still thinks like a starter. Not saying he should be, but this is more an emphasis on why its just not so easy to take a guy who thinks like as starter and automatically just think that that translates to being a reliever.

 

Now as for Maine, you might be the first Met fan I have heard that actually agrees with this silly idea. First off, Maine is not throwing gas nor getting these strikeouts that you mention. His velocity yesterday was down 4-5 mph and he obviously is a bit sore. Second of all and more importantly, this is a guy who has proven to be a very good majoe league starter, just might yet again win 15 games, why and I going to mess with that? Third and more importantly, the guy has a bum shoulder, that obviously gave him some problems, do I need one of my potential 2008 and beyond starters injuring his arm further with the burdens of pitching 2-3 days in a row and the work that is needed in preparing to do so? (i.e bullpen warmups etc) and most importantly and this should be the #1 reason that NO ONE wants to do this, what if he does not succeed in this role and it messes him up going forward as a starter? The risk is not worth the potential reward.

 

Now as far as a playof scenario goes, yes I agree Maine would be a very good candidiate to go to the pen. Not now though, not when the Met starters have been consistently good the past month. Too risky now and probably that reason alone is what OMAR and MANUEL will not do it.

 

I think I made clear in my post that I am not interested and do not support the idea of permanently moving Maine to the pen. But first, with Heilman, it's really not the point. You made an example with Heilman saying that making him a reliever has messed with his head. I don't know any way you can make a rational case for this, it is complete speculation. That is why I said it was a bad example. Secondly, he has proven himself as an effective reliever, and no I'm not talking about this past season (however he has had his moments of dominance this year), but seasons prior. But again, Heilman is not the point.

 

And yes, I do believe in stats to a degree. It's a long season, and with the number of games, number of AB's for hitters, and innings for pitchers, stats are a good indicator of effectiveness. For players that have small sample sizes, stats are not good indicators. But I digress.

 

Back to Maine. What I'm saying is that he should be a starter, just not for the playoffs, and he should get indocrinated into that role down the stretch, so that when and if we get to the playoffs it is not completely foreign to him. I do not believe that pitchers are so mentally fragile that coming into a game versus starting one is going to cause them to forget how to pitch, and further cause him mental damage for the rest of his career. The current team's needs and postseason aspirations weigh much heavier than that minimal risk. I do believe that certain situations may take getting used to, especially if he were asked to close. That is not my preference for him. What is clear is that the Mets have no one they can rely on to get big outs late in games, and there is no one to turn to. That is the concern, and that is why this is on the table.

 

You mentioned his shoulder trouble. If that is the case, then the Mets need to shut him down for 15 days anyway. He's not doing us any good going out there winging it on a bad shoulder and barely getting through 5 innings. That is not a recipe for success and puts an even greater burden on an already tired and ineffective bullpen. I did not get a chance to watch him pitch on Monday, incidentally. I will also let you know that a starting pitcher also is asked to throw warm-up pitches before starts, just as many or more so than a reliever. And then the starter is asked to go out and throw 90-110 pitches. A bullpen pitcher is only asked to give an inning, could be 8-10 pitches, could be 20 pitches. Bottom line is that in the bullpen Maine will have to endure a lot less pitches on that arm than he would as a starter. And the manager has more control of his workload as well, rather than trotting him out there every five days to take everything out of that arm on that day. It's why starters throw near 200 innings in a season and most relievers only throw 60 or so. The taxation on a pitching arm is less with a reliever. Even if he does go to the pen, it doesn't mean he's going to be asked to go in there 2 or 3 games in a row. Sure it's a possibility, but in a series, having him in there for the potential reward of a World Series ring is always worth a risk. Again, I don't see a scenario where making Maine a bullpen pitcher for a month and a half will destroy his career as a starter. It makes perfect sense... the Mets have 4 good starters going into the playoffs without Maine, and they have nobody they can count on for big outs in the 7th and 8th innings. It's simple arithmetic, Maine needs to go to the pen, unless someone emerges, and even then he probably needs to (just for the stretch run and the playoffs!)

 

I do find it curious that this is two years in a row that Maine has kind of broken down late in the season as a starter. This is something to watch next year. If it happens again, it may be necessity for him to go to the pen permanently, because his body and throwing style just may not have 180 to 200 good innings in them over the course of an entire season.

 

[xxi-xxv]

I think I made clear in my post that I am not interested and do not support the idea of permanently moving Maine to the pen. But first, with Heilman, it's really not the point. You made an example with Heilman saying that making him a reliever has messed with his head. I don't know any way you can make a rational case for this, it is complete speculation. That is why I said it was a bad example. Secondly, he has proven himself as an effective reliever, and no I'm not talking about this past season (however he has had his moments of dominance this year), but seasons prior. But again, Heilman is not the point.

 

And yes, I do believe in stats to a degree. It's a long season, and with the number of games, number of AB's for hitters, and innings for pitchers, stats are a good indicator of effectiveness. For players that have small sample sizes, stats are not good indicators. But I digress.

 

Back to Maine. What I'm saying is that he should be a starter, just not for the playoffs, and he should get indocrinated into that role down the stretch, so that when and if we get to the playoffs it is not completely foreign to him. I do not believe that pitchers are so mentally fragile that coming into a game versus starting one is going to cause them to forget how to pitch, and further cause him mental damage for the rest of his career. The current team's needs and postseason aspirations weigh much heavier than that minimal risk. I do believe that certain situations may take getting used to, especially if he were asked to close. That is not my preference for him. What is clear is that the Mets have no one they can rely on to get big outs late in games, and there is no one to turn to. That is the concern, and that is why this is on the table.

 

You mentioned his shoulder trouble. If that is the case, then the Mets need to shut him down for 15 days anyway. He's not doing us any good going out there winging it on a bad shoulder and barely getting through 5 innings. That is not a recipe for success and puts an even greater burden on an already tired and ineffective bullpen. I did not get a chance to watch him pitch on Monday, incidentally. I will also let you know that a starting pitcher also is asked to throw warm-up pitches before starts, just as many or more so than a reliever. And then the starter is asked to go out and throw 90-110 pitches. A bullpen pitcher is only asked to give an inning, could be 8-10 pitches, could be 20 pitches. Bottom line is that in the bullpen Maine will have to endure a lot less pitches on that arm than he would as a starter. And the manager has more control of his workload as well, rather than trotting him out there every five days to take everything out of that arm on that day. It's why starters throw near 200 innings in a season and most relievers only throw 60 or so. The taxation on a pitching arm is less with a reliever. Even if he does go to the pen, it doesn't mean he's going to be asked to go in there 2 or 3 games in a row. Sure it's a possibility, but in a series, having him in there for the potential reward of a World Series ring is always worth a risk. Again, I don't see a scenario where making Maine a bullpen pitcher for a month and a half will destroy his career as a starter. It makes perfect sense... the Mets have 4 good starters going into the playoffs without Maine, and they have nobody they can count on for big outs in the 7th and 8th innings. It's simple arithmetic, Maine needs to go to the pen, unless someone emerges, and even then he probably needs to (just for the stretch run and the playoffs!)

 

I do find it curious that this is two years in a row that Maine has kind of broken down late in the season as a starter. This is something to watch next year. If it happens again, it may be necessity for him to go to the pen permanently, because his body and throwing style just may not have 180 to 200 good innings in them over the course of an entire season.

 

Ron Darling hammered home my exact point on tonights telecast, you do not weaken a strength to possibly help a weakness and like Omar said today the answers will come from within. Someone is gonna step up. Maybe Heilman embraces the closers role but I can assure you he does not like being a reliever having been a starter his whole career before 2006. Darling also completely rebuked your point about relieving not taxing the arm as much, bringing up the warm up process and then sometimes sitting combined with the everyday use. He says relievers arms tend to have little down time and no rest. All due respect I will take Ron at his word over anything we speculate on.

 

Maine's last start last year he went 9 innings and struck out 14, more a hit the wall thing in 07 then breaking down. This year he has a legitimate shoulder trouble, not awful just trouble. Double digit winners with 3 ERA's do not grow on trees and he has proven to be one.

 

[Allstarjim]

You are ok to take Darling's opinion. But when the playoffs roll around, and we don't need a 5th starter, and we lose playoff games from the 7th through 9th innings, it will look awfully foolish to not have converted Maine to a late inning reliever, whether Darling wants to believe that or not. Like I said though, Maine needs to rest that shoulder regardless, because we are going to need him in some capacity.

[xxi-xxv]

You are ok to take Darling's opinion. But when the playoffs roll around, and we don't need a 5th starter, and we lose playoff games from the 7th through 9th innings, it will look awfully foolish to not have converted Maine to a late inning reliever, whether Darling wants to believe that or not. Like I said though, Maine needs to rest that shoulder regardless, because we are going to need him in some capacity.

What would look even moe foolish is if the Mets miss the playoffs because they were trying to fortify their bullpen before they even got there. I talked to one of my buddies from college today, he was on my team back in school. He said his arm was more tired our Freshman and Sophmore years when he was relieveing as opposed to his JR and SR years when they made him a starter. Of course he is a Yankee fan so he is relating this to Lord Joba.

 

Maine absolutely can become a reliever if and when the playoffs roll around. No reason to think otherwise, its just that now the Mets are in a full blown pennant race and they should not weaken what is now their biggest strength and thats the starting pitching. Its light years ahead of their competition right now. As for the bullpen ... well. I myself have a feeling that this bullpen is going to start to come together more. Do not know why I feel this way, but I do. Also, I have a darkhorse in this whole process and thats El Duque. This situation reeks of what EL Duque loves, kind of riding in on the white horse type thing. Obviously he will not close, but I think he can bring something to the table.

 

Manuel all but killed these ideas anyway on Mike Francessa's show. I think we are going with what we got and for some reason I think its going to work.

[gateb]

Jon Niese is reaching his innings limit. You think Omar and co. are willing to screw around with our #1 pitching prospect and make him a reliever for the next month?

 

Bobby Harnell is another name too.

[Allstarjim]

The whole point about being a reliever being more taxing on an arm is too general of a statement. Because, as Manuel would know, they would have to watch someone with as tender as an arm as Maine's, and limit his duty. If I were in that managerial role, I would not have Maine pitch on back to back nights, with the caveat that if it were a big enough game, say against the Phillies with a slim divisional lead, I would make an exception. I would also only use Maine in save situation games in the 8th OR 9th inning only. Manuel could say that it's off the table for now, but someone out of this rotation is going to the pen in the playoffs, that is certain. Maybe it will be Pedro, I don't know. If it's Maine, I would like him to start relieving two weeks prior to the end of the season. On the other hand, I don't see why they don't have him miss a start or two because of that tired shoulder. If indeed his arm is sore, and it appears that way (with as you mentioned, a 5 mph decrease in velocity on his fastball in his last start), then that is going to catch up with him and the Mets. Not only that, but trotting him out there still could make a bad situation worse, and God forbid, he tear his rotator cuff, that would not only effect our chances this year but next season as well. I just disagree with Maine being sent out there right now when there is clearly something wrong.

 

I don't even think missing him would be that devastating to our playoff run. As we've done, we can get by with 4 starters on regular rest a lot of the time, when the schedule affords an off-day or two. Secondly, having someone step in and provide a spot start for us when the schedule doesn't afford the extra day, has actually been ok for us this year every now and then. And gateb, I do think in the scenario above, should Maine be shelved for a couple of starts, Niese would be on the table to start. I don't think Manuel would put him in the bullpen, though.

 

I think right now Manuel is hoping that Al Reyes and/or Ayala step up and provide the missing pieces for us in the bullpen. The alternative is hope that Sanchez and/or Heilman return to a dominating presence on the mound, and of course, that could backfire at any time. If none of this happens, the Manuel will be faced with some tough decisions, that will have big implications on this playoff race.

 

I will be watching Maine's next start intently, by the way.