HOUND

Maurice Drew is not a better return man as per NFL standards at the present time than Chad Morton is. Not to say Maurice will not be a good return man, its just that he is not better than Morton now.

 

As for Drew I watched his combine workout on NFL network and his quickness and strength(thighs are friging huge) is impressive for his size. Not sure he makes it to us in that spot, but his talent is intriguing.

Considering Drew hasn't stepped on the field yet in the NFL I think it's kind of implied that that isn't what I was stating.

...You actually believe Drew (at 5'6'') will be better than Ward and Jacobs. I'm sorry, I don't see it. And we have already have slow LB. Why add another one?

 

there are other CB just a fast and taller

I thought Shiancoe was already signed. Sorry about that...

Drew better than Ward? Yes, I'm very confident he'll be the better pro.

Drew better than Jacobs? That's not the point I was trying to make. What I was saying was that by selecting Drew we can use Jacobs and Drew in a tandem role as they're strengths are polar opposites of each other. I'm not suggesting that we draft Drew so we can cut Jacobs. I like the thought of utilizing both as they complement each other. Although if you were to make me choose one or the other I'd still take Drew but regardless, that's not what I was getting at.

I think it's premature so say that Drew is a better return specialist than Morton.

Premature? Maybe ... but I know who I'd put my money on 2 years from now.

Hound, are you back for the draft-day chat this year?

Send me the invite. I'll be home all day but I'll be in an out during the draft. My son, future Offensive Lineman for the Giants, will be christened this weekend. I've got a lot of family coming into town and the party is Saturday. I'll have the draft on but I'll also be entertaining about 30 people as well as putting on a display in backyard barbecue and horseshoes.

The f'n NFL moved the draft back a week this year without consulting me. I had the option of dipping young Riley last weekend but at the time thought ... April 22nd weekend? No way, that's the draft, let's do it the next weekend.

So basically, most of my commentary will come after the fact. I'll be thinking of you guys.

Accorsi rarely tips his hand. The simple fact that he's talking glowingly of Cromartie likely means we have no chance of getting him.

I think Bobby Carpenter is the only legitimate pick out of those three. Moss has a VERY small possibility, although I would not approve of any of it. I trust EA not to take him, though. I would narrow our first round possibiliites down to the following:

 

Bobby Carpenter

Demeco Ryans

Chad Greenway

Antonio Cromartie

Ty Hill

Gabe Watson

Deangelo Williams

Eric Winston

Nick Mangold

Trade Down

Agreed ... and it better not be Tye Hill!

I think the Patriots re-sign him

Maurice Drew is far more talented than Derrick Ward and is a better return specialist than anyone currently on the roster. It wouldn't surprise me if Drew turned out to be a better pro than Jacobs. Yes he's small but RB's don't need to come in big packages to be successful.

Gaither plays faster than he times. Prior to the combine his 40 time was listed as 4.7. Not sure what he ran in Indy but I think it was a fraction slower.

When you get to the 5th round it's tough to find complete players. Just about everyone has some sort of wart. In Jennings case it's height but he can still contribute and wouldn't be a bad pick at that slot.

If we don't re-sign Shiancoe, which at this point I don't really see why it would be urgent to do so, he'll be a free agent at the end of the season. By taking a tight end late we're already grooming his replacement. Williams in the 7th is excellent value for the reasons I listed.

I think I summed up my reasons for not including Basanez.

I don't think it's fair to attribute McCargo's achievements to Williams and Lawson. It's entirely conceivable that McCargo was a big part of his teammates success as well.

Just my .02 but having seen a bunch of NC State games live I can tell you that McCargo did very little to stand out when I saw him. Having Lawson and Williams on either side gave him much more opprotunity to shine than the other way around. I'm not high on the guy.

Is anyone else having trouble with those videos from Yahoo? Every time I click on one, I see some stupid Hummer commercial, followed by my browser clicking a bunch of times, and then the Hummer commercial showing again.

 

In other words, Yahoo is gay.

Whoa ... wait a minute. I can get a hummer simply by clicking on yahoo?

I'll be right back.

I don't know if Drew makes it to 87. The Browns evidently love him, and they have a few chances to nab him before we pick in Round 3...

Time for Paulie Walnuts to pay Phil Savage a visit then.

I would take Moss JR over Chad

I didn't know there was a Sinorice Moss Sr.

I'm in.

Hound

 

thank you for this interesting take on the draft.

i speak for all of us when i say we appreciate

your effort.

Thanks for the props Martin but really, this is hardly what I would call "work". I tend to read up on the draft every year. It's a bit of an addiction. Debating picks and assessing talent is part of the process. Sometime next week I'll write up the scouting reports I've seen on who we actually pick.

It would be an amazing draft Hound, though we'd need a bit of luck to land picks 2 through 7.

Really? I think the only pick I included that has less than a 50-50 chance of being available is Colledge. Drew is all over the place. Some mocks have him going 4th round others I've seen him selected in the second. I think he's still there when we pick at 3.

I think Gaither, Jennings and Williams are all available when we pick.

This isn't necessarily who I'm rooting for, this is how I think we'll select.

Round 1 - DT Gabe Watson - Michigan. The upside is too tempting to let him slip by. He addresses a major area of need. Sure there's safer picks available here but Watson can pay immediate dividends and covers our biggest weakness.

Round 2 - OT Daryn Colledge - Boise State. 4 year starter on the Left side for a quality Boise State team. First team WAC performer the past 2 seasons. Excellent footwork you want in a blindside Tackle prospect. Uses his hands exceedingly well. Needs some refinement in drive blocking but has shown capable skill. The concern that he may have been shining bright due to playing inferior competition was dispelled by a strong showing at the Senior Bowl. Needs to continue adding weight to handle large bull rushers. He may not fall to the 56th spot. I wouldn't be surprised to see EA trade up to land him.

Round 3 - RB Maurice Drew - UCLA. Bit of a surprise pick here. I've heard rumors that Accorsi has taken a shine to this kid. He'd be a quality addition as he's the anti-Jacobs. We'd be in a good position to succeed Tiki in a couple of years. Drew is also an excellent return specialist who might make Chad Morton expendable next year. He's similar to Joe Morris as he's got a small compact frame and huge legs. Low center of gravity with excellent cutback skills. He's blindingly fast. He's well versed as a receiver out of the backfield.

I didn't plan on taking 2 offensive players first day but the value was there.

Round 4 - OLB Omar Gaither - Tennessee. 2 year starter on the outside for the Vols. Solid read and react skills. Projects well to weakside "chase" position. Had a huge performance his Junior year in the SEC title game versus Auburn (18 tackles!). Sure tackler. Underrated player.

Round 5 - CB Tim Jennings - Georgia. Lightning fast corner who's started since late in his freshman year. Excellent footwork combined with good hip swivel. Incredibly developed zone coverage skills usually not seen in college prospects. His 4.3 speed allows him to run with any receiver on the field. He lacks ideal size - is only 5'8", 186 lbs. The small frame creates problems in jump ball situations. He also struggles to match up physically bumping receivers off the line. He isn't afraid to come up and support the run but lacks the bulk to do it well. He typically tries to cut the runners legs to bring him down. May lack the physical package to ever earn a starting role but could be an impact nickel corner surprisignly early.

Round 7 - TE T.J. Williams - N.C. State. Talented senior who saw his draft stock fall due to a lack of quality stats his final 2 seasons. Williams has soft hands and is a well defined route runner. He's a bit small for the position (6'2") but has good leaping ability. TJ's Junior and Senior seasons saw a big dropoff in numbers primarily due to deficiencies at the QB position for the Wolfpack. Williams draft stock was victimized by the departure of Philip Rivers and the Pack's attempt at breaking in young signalcallers. With better play at the QB position, Williams possibly becomes a first day pick. He tends to block using positional leverage moreso than strength. He'll need some further coaching in that area. With Shiancoe's contract expiring at the conclusion of this season, Williams could fill his role after gaining a season of experience.

Guys I would've loved to include:

[/i] FS Pat Watkins - Florida State. Behemoth prospect with speed and quickness rarely found in such a large frame (6'4", 210 lbs, runs a 4.45 forty!). Likely late second round pick.

CB/S Marcus Hudson - NC State. Versatile player with well honed coverage skills. Reliable tackler who contributes in run support. Projected 5th rounder. I already had a Wolfpack player and didn't want to be accused of homerism.

WR Brandon Marshall - Central Florida. Huge athletic wideout (6'4", 225 lbs.) Solid hands, mean streak, excellent athleticism. Needs to work on technique and route running to realize his potential but the raw talent is amazing. Possible first day pick but is a gem in the 4th round.

QB Brett Basanez - Northwestern. Impressed me every time I saw him play. Quick release, good smarts, solid decision making. He's going to make some GM look real smart as he likely doesn't get picked until the 2nd day. However we don't have a need at QB, especially for a young gun.

Winston is overrated he is not a first round pick and somebody that can take over at left tackle in a year lets get real with our sleves here

Care to back this up with something tangible?

A few points I want to make:

 

1. There's no way that we will head into the third round w/o having drafted a DT. That either means Watson at 25 or one of the aforementioned players at 56.

 

2. I disagree slightly with Hound's statement that Watson is a reach at 25. He's either the pick or he isn't. If he works hard he will get onto the field and be productive. If he doesnt give a shit and takes training camp off he will never get onto the field with Tom Coughlin as a coach and therefore is not worth a pick at any spot. If you look up boom or bust in the dictionary you will see a picture of his fat ass.

 

3. I'm not opposed to the theory of drafting Watson in the first and then grabbing another DT in either the second or third. That way we get some solid competition and training camp should produce at least one serviceable DT.

He's a reach because of the major risk involved in taking him in round 1. He's got a well documented conditioning problem. He's similar to Randy Moss in that he seems to play at a top level only part of the time and when he feels like it. Other times he takes plays off. If he wasn't lazy he'd be a top 15 pick and we wouldn't even have a shot at him. I totally agree that he's boom or bust. But I consider him a reach because of the risk involved in spending a first rounder on him. Now if he was somehow available in the 2nd I'd say he's an automatic pick for us. That's not gonna happen but I think you see the point I'm making.

I heard a radio interview with Buckner in which he said he'd likely retire if another team didn't sign him. That's hardly earthshattering taken at face value but looking at what he said it sounds as though he'd still like to play. I also think that if the Giants went after Buckner or Jackson they'd sign Buckner.

In regards to immediate starting ability in the rookie defensive tackle class, the only one I'd feel confident in getting immediate contributions from is Gabe Watson.

I don't understand why people defend McCargo by comparing his situation in college to how it would be if the Giants signed him. If the guy's stock is inflated because of the talent that surrounded him in college, he shouldn't get a free pass simply because we've got talent at the same positions. It makes far more sense to sign a guy who can excel on his own. What is the justification of drafting a guy who needs better players around him to succeed. Especially considering we have at the maximum, 2 more productive seasons from Strahan.

We've had pretty good DT discussion in the thread Armstead started. I'll try not to be repetitive.

Forget about Bunkley and Ngata. Without a trade up or an arrest in the next day or so they're off the board.

Gabe Watson likely will be the highest rated DT when we pick, although the chance exists he could be gone too. Watson is also a perceived reach by us at 25 based on his less than stellar conditioning and work habits. I think Watson has the potential to be a Chester McGlockton type of space eater in the middle. I'm personally a big fan of huge guys at DT even if they are overweight, although in Watson's case he takes far too many plays off. Money is definitely the expert here as he's seen Gabe play. I originally was bitterly opposed to taking Watson in round 1. I still think it's a reach on our part and a case of drafting solely for need. There is no doubt in my mind we'll have other quality and safer options available at 25 but I'll also admit that the prospect of taking Watson at 25 doesn't upset me as much as it used to. Watson won't be there at 56 so if we want him we have to take him in the first round. He could make an impact for us this year. I can't see him hurting our rsuh defense! However in discussing any Defensive Tackle prospect the expectation should never be for the rookie season. DT is a tough position to learn at the pro level. It takes some development. I think you can look at Joseph as a good example of this. He played some solid ball for us last season after being inconsistent his first few seasons. That being the case I likely would pursue a veteran free agent to add to the roster. Brenston Buckner would be a good mentor. Grady Jackson would likely perform better.

I thin Rod Wright of Texas is an interesting prospect. At 6'6" he has the size, although I'd like to see more weight on his 310 pound frame. Like Watson he has shown the ability to dominate against top level competition. Also like Watson he's horribly inconsistent. He didn't have the Senior season most Scouts woud've liked. He earned Big 12 Defensive Freshman of the Year honors and started 44 of 49 games. That's impressive considering the strength of the Texas program. However he only totaled 5.5 sacks his final 2 seasons after ringing up 7.5 in his sophomore campaign. The on/off motor is his biggest flaw. He comes from a football family (Uncle and cousin both played in the NFL) and has good field smarts. His senior season will cause his draft stock to drop, which some of you may recall was exactly what happened to William Joseph.

I also like Babatunde Oshinowo, a 300+ pound run plugger from Stanford. I don't think he's got nearly enough credit on most draft sites. Although he isn't the best fit for our defense. he really projects best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.

To answer your main question ... what would I do, if I'm Giants GM....

I'd likely pass on Gabe Watson at 25. I think there will be more attractive options. I'd happily take OT Eric Winston from Miami in that slot. I'd take CB Cromartie too although his stock is skyrocketing. I'm still a huge fan of D'Meco Ryans. It's hard to find something to dislike about the kid, although it's tough to justify taking him with his best position being likely manned for the next two seasons. I tend to think Wright is available in round 2 and I think he's a great value at that slot. Many feel Calude Wroten won't be available when we pick at 56. I'm higher on Wright than I am on Wroten. But I'd select either one in round 2 with my preference being the Texas Longhorn. I'll be surprised if neither one is available so if you're looking for where I'd find my DT, my strategy would likely be in round 2.

Other names:

Dusty Dvoracek ... love his motor and effort but I'm not sure he physically matches up to be an everydown defender. I'd consider him in the 3rd but not before then. If we somehow don't have a DT by round 3 then I don't see how we can pass on him.

I'm not high on John McCargo of NC State. He's had the benefit of playing inside two excellent pass rushers (Lawson and Williams). It's made him appear much better than he is.

If you want a late round sleeper I'd recommend Anthony Montgomery of Minnesota. He's 6'5" and 315 lbs. He plays as if he's still elarning the game. He really came on his senior season and finished strong. He's got the prototype size you look for. He's also shown to be a solid run plugger which at this point is the greater need for the Giants.

I think you're giving Dvoracek far too much credit if you're looking for a contribution this year. I really think he'll need to develop for a bit before a team will get contributions from him.

I think you make a good point about underachievers vs. overachievers. My biggest concern is that I'm not convinced that DD can be a player in this league although it won't be for a lack of effort. I'm absolutely convinced Wright can cut it and if he fulfills his potential he's Pro Bowl caliber. Yes, the bust potential is there but in round 2 I think he's worth the gamble. I'll agree that Wright will be most effective after he puts more weight on. That 6'6" frame could definitely add more bulk. He reminds me a bit of Keith Hamilton in that regard. Hammer too had questions about his intensity in the early going.

I'm pretty sure I was the one who gave the pessimistic review of McCargo. I've seen him play live on multiple occassions. I think he'd be better served staying in school another year but he knows he's got much less talent around him this season. If he disappoints in his senior season his draft stock plummets, whereas if he comes out now, some will be fooled and overlook the lack of attention opposing offenses gave him.

Tampa at 23 is the biggest obstacle between us and Eric Winston

Hound, unless you and me look at atheltic ability different, I think you're wrong with what I have bolded. I took the liberty to get the other DTs number along with Dvoracek so you can see on an atheltic level he is very close to the others who are in this draft.

 

Dvoracek (6-2¾, 306 pounds) At his proday he was timed at 4.79 and 4.81 in the 40. He had a 9-foot-6 broad jump, 4.47 short shuttle and a 7.59 three-cone drill. He did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press. At the combine he ran the 40-yard dash in 5.07 seconds with a 34-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Wroten had a 29½-inch vertical jump, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.83 and the three-cone drill in 7.70.

 

Bunkley (6-2 5/8, 304) he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.95 seconds, did 44 reps in the 225-pound bench press, had a 32.5-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-5 broad jump.

 

Wright (6-4 3/4, 303) had a 4.47 short shuttle. He ran the 40-yard dash in 5.16 seconds with a 32-inch vertical jump, a 9-2 broad jump and did 31 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

McCargo (6-1, 305) ran his 40s in 5.11 and 5.12 seconds. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.37 and the three-cone drill in 7.29. He did 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Harris (6-2 7/8, 298) did not lift, but ran his 40s in 5.27 and 5.28. He also ran 4.51 in the short shuttle and 7.45 in the cone drill. He had a 29½-inch vertical, and an 8-foot-6 broad jump lift. He lifted 25 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

 

Lewis ran the 40-yard dash in 4.97 seconds with a 33.5-inch vertical jump, a 9-3 broad jump and 24 reps in the 225-pound bench press.

Now I do think Dvoracek at 56 may be just a bit too early but I dont think he'll be there at the end of round 3. So selecting him at 56 (assuming we dont trade down) isnt that bad of an idea at all. I like Dusty and the attitude he brings to the game as well. But I also feel he can get it done with his talent. Just take a look at his production on the field. Stats

 

Dusty is stout vs the run and has the tools and strength to hold up. He also has the talent and skills to be an effective pass rusher. To me Dvoracek is one of the better all around DTs after Ngata and Bunkley. I actually cant believe McCargo, Lewis, and Harris have been rated higher on some boards I've seen.

Dvoracek definitely improved his standing at the combine. His 40 time was stated at 5.1 before he went to the Combine. He bested that by .4! Generally speaking, Dvoracek produced better combine number than I thought he was capable of. I think one of his strongest suits is his strength. He uses his upper body well. Although I also think he's limited as a pass rusher. He doesn't have many moves besides a straight bull rush. He's better versus the run than pass but I'm not necessarily convinced he can be an everydown defender.

I should've been more specific in my criticism though. When I was comparing his overall athleticism I was doing so versus guys like Watson, Wright and Wroten in mind. Basically I don't think Dvoracek offers as good of an upside as these guys. However I will admit I can see where some would be more confident in Dvoracek fulfilling his potential than the other guys. Dusty seems to have the best work ethic of the bunch. I'd take all the guys I've listed above ahead of Dvoracek but that said, I won't be upset if we draft the Sooner. Although I still say 2nd round is too early. If we have to reach for a tackle I'd rather reach for Watson in round 1. Personally methinks if Wright is there in round 2 we can't pass him over.

I agree that McCargo is overrated. I like Oshinowo too but he's not a great fit for us.

I don't see how Thomas Howard can be a consideration but Eric Winston isn't. It's not a major stretch to believe Winston will be there when we pick.

John McCargo is overrated. I've seen a lot of NC State football. The guy never saw a double team in his college career. He could use more size/weight. I simply don't see him as an impact player at the next level.

I like the Bullocks pick.

FYI, Randy Moss isn't related to Santana or Sinorice.

Thus the Kate Moss joke.