Who is better Rogers or Eli?

[JMFP]

yeah ask Tiki

 

 

Jack makes another excellent point.

 

When Tiki Barber was leading the NFL in yards from scrimmage, there was no doubt that he was considered an elite running back. Similarly, the guy he lost the MVP vote to - Sean Alexander - was considered an elite running back.

 

Today, either of them making the Hall of Fame would be quite a long shot.

[JMFP]

the root of the disagreement has to do with the fact that in your desperation to still catagorize eli as an elite nfl QB, you decided this year to create this "difference" between elite and what you define as "beyond elite." the dog sees all of this as an obvious cop out. for three years we debated this. the dog consistently stated that there are three qbs that are elite, or beyond their peers in that position (peyton manning, brees and brady). in all of this time, you argued that eli manning is elite, never once bringing up the whole "beyond elite" or hall of fame level.

 

This quote is from one of our debates back in 2008 on this very subject. I think at that time, I made a distinction between what it means to at the top of the game in any year, versus being ranked among the all-time greats....namely, the Hall of Fame.

 

 

All joking aside, my point is that regular season performance pales in comparison to the postseason.

 

Doug Williams had a tremendous year during his SB run, and played an incredible game, so yeah, if you asked me during that season how he should be ranked, I'd say at the very top.

 

Let's take Carson Palmer - supposedly a "great" QB, but what did he accomplish this season, other than gaudy stats and a losing record?

 

What about Hasselbeck of the Seahawks?.....he flat out sucked against the Packers, in conditions far better than what Eli played in. Favre was outplayed by Manning, Romo was likewise inferior on the big stage, and Garcia as well.

 

I haven't checked the stats, but please, someone out there name another QB that took his team to the playoffs his first three full seasons as a starter, and then won the Super Bowl and was named MVP when he was in his 4th year in the league. I'm pretty sure the list includes maybe Troy Aikman and Joe Montana.

 

Here's my unscientific method of ranking QB's, in order of importance

 

Super Bowl victories

Super Bowl appearances

Playoff appearances

Regular season wins

Regular season stats

 

That's pretty much it.... people can throw out Trent Dilfer and Dan Marino as the two extremes, and perhaps the exception to the rule. Dan Marino was a clear case of a fantastic QB who deserved a lot better. For most of his career, he had a shit-defense and a mediocre running game. You can say the same about Dan Fouts. But then again, life's not fair. That's why the NFL Hall of Fame is such a great idea - to reward tremendous players. And say what you want about Dilfer, but the guy was the consumate game manager, and that counts too.

 

In this ESPN-age, we glorify the gunslingers, but forget that guys like Bart Starr and Bob Griese did a pretty damn good job at the position too.

 

Here's my ranking:

#1 - Tom Brady

#2 - Brett Favre

#3 - Peyton Manning

#4 - Eli Manning

#5 - Ben Rothlisberger

#6 - Kurt Warner

#7 - Trent Dilfer

#8 Brad Johnson

#9 on down - everyone based on playoff appearances, etc., as noted above.

 

Brad Johnson is arguable - I don't even know what team he's on now, so he could even be dropped off the list. Kurt Warner would rank at the top, except I think he's past his prime.

[ksm7]

Thanks Jim. This is what I am referring to. Apparently the Dog can't accept the fact Hall of Famers at some point actually play in the NFL.

 

This is why, I assume, that the Dog cannot accept the distinction I have made between Eli Manning and future Hall of Fame players such as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

 

I would suggest the Dog re-examine the definition of "elite".

 

 

 

Used in the present tense, I believe the description fits. Considering his accomplishments, I think Eli deserves to be considered among the top QBs.

 

However, other than Peyton and Brady, I don't think anyone else currently playing can be considered as Hall of Fame locks. Drew Brees might have a shot, but that remains to be seen.

 

again, the dog's main issue is that is was never a distinction in any convseration had about this until you came to the reality that eli was not elite, and so you stretched to this in order to place him there. but given your definition, the dog still wouldn't place him in the catagory of elite. to do so would mean that he would be the best of his group of QBs, and the dog doesn't see that. that would be the three the dog already mentioned. oh yeah, that's right, you call them beyond elite, so eli is actually the elite of the second tier of QBs...um, ok joe...ok. who is the elite of the bad qb grouping then?

[ksm7]

This quote is from one of our debates back in 2008 on this very subject. I think at that time, I made a distinction between what it means to at the top of the game in any year, versus being ranked among the all-time greats....namely, the Hall of Fame.

 

ok - so the dog will use your words - if regular season pales in comparison with post season, then why is tony romo on your list of elite NFL qbs? how does eli manning be placed currently in the same breath as aaron rodgers when eli hasn't sniffed the post season in two seasons, and rodgers did what he did? here is the issue - you elevated eli manning in 2008, as you aptly showed, to the number 4 position because of post season results, yet now you want to argue that he is in the same comparison as rodgers? doesn't fit.

 

but it doesn't matter. eli is the giants QB. you see him as elite, the dog sees him as solid. when he stops making rookie style mistakes on a regular basis, then maybe he can be considered something more than he is. the reality is, he is 30 or so and crossing to the second half of his career. typically you would not want to see these kinds of mistakes out of a player starting for this long, but if that is elite to you, then so be it. the dog has higher expectations once you start throwing around the elite word, and that is even applying your definition of the word...

[JMFP]

ok - so the dog will use your words - if regular season pales in comparison with post season, then why is tony romo on your list of elite NFL qbs? how does eli manning be placed currently in the same breath as aaron rodgers when eli hasn't sniffed the post season in two seasons, and rodgers did what he did? here is the issue - you elevated eli manning in 2008, as you aptly showed, to the number 4 position because of post season results, yet now you want to argue that he is in the same comparison as rodgers? doesn't fit.

 

but it doesn't matter. eli is the giants QB. you see him as elite, the dog sees him as solid. when he stops making rookie style mistakes on a regular basis, then maybe he can be considered something more than he is. the reality is, he is 30 or so and crossing to the second half of his career. typically you would not want to see these kinds of mistakes out of a player starting for this long, but if that is elite to you, then so be it. the dog has higher expectations once you start throwing around the elite word, and that is even applying your definition of the word...

 

I consider Tony Romo as an elite QB because of his production and wins. The Cowboys are a legitimate post-season contender with him on the team.

 

Eli Manning went 10-6, and threw for 4000+ yards for the 2nd season in a row.

 

I ranked Aaron Rodgers as an elite QB prior to his Super Bowl run, based again on his production....and he has justified the ranking. See below for my comments prior to the 2010 playoffs (I edited the post for length).

 

In fact, the accuracy of my Elite-o-meter is frankly stunning. I think a copyright is in order.

 

Joe's Elite QB-o-meter

 

 

In today's NFL, there are currently 2 QBs who are certainly bound for Canton....

 

• Peyton Manning: Hall of Fame (ranked #8 on the greatest players of all time)
  
• Tom Brady: Hall of Fame (ranked #21 on the greatest players of all time)
  

http://top100.nfl.com/

 

A strong argument can be made that Drew Brees could be Hall of Fame bound, but I don't see him as a lock like Peyton or Tom are. And, using the Top 100 Football Players of all time to support my argument, he is not even listed.

• Drew Brees: Arguably Hall of Fame / Elite +
  

 

So, setting aside that Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees are a cut above the rest ("better than elite"), where does that leave the remaining QB's?

 

I would argue that you can divide the rest among "elite", "good", "average" or "poor".

 

So, with the Hall of Fame being "beyond elite", what is an "elite" QB?

 

I would say an "elite" QB would be a QB that a team builds their franchise around. It is a QB that has either demonstrated that they are capable of winning a championship, OR, over time (more than one season) have put together a body of work that would lead one to argue they are capable of making a run at a championship.

Elite QBs make their teams better - they are capable of beating more talented teams. They are the most prized stock in a GM's trading arsenal - they would require blockbuster moves to change from team to team. So, who would fall into my category of elite QB's?

Elite QBs

 

• Philip Rivers: Elite (excellent career so far; terrific stats, winner)
  
• Rothlisberger: Elite (championships, wins, stats)
  
• Eli Manning: Elite (champsionship, wins, stats, durability)
  
• Romo: Elite (excellent career so far, terrific stats, winner)
  
• Aaron Rodgers: Elite (excellent career so far, terrific stats, winner)
  

 

Good QBs

 

• Matt Ryan (moving into Elite range soon)
  
• Jay Cutler (very good stats, could be making a move up pending playoffs)
  
• Joe Flacco (good young QB, making the most of what he has, winner; on his way up)
  
• Mark Sanchez (good young QB, making the most of his opportunity, winner)
  
• Hasselbeck (on the down side of his career; was once elite).
  
• Vick (possibly Elite, but end of this season exposed flaws in game;)
  
• Donovan McNabb (once was elite, out of gas).
  
• Matt Schaub (good stats, but still hasn't won anything)
  
• Carson Palmer (once was elite, but too many losses to deserve consideration anymore)
  

 

I might have missed some additional "good" QBs, but I think you get my drift.

 

Ordinary and Poor QBs would represent the remainder, and I don't have the time or urge to list them.

[JMFP]

So really, I've got 2 QBs - Romo and Rivers - that I consider Elite that haven't won a Super Bowl. But I think that given the proper surrounding cast, either of them could get the job done.

 

If the Dog takes exception to the word "elite", feel free to substitute "excellent" or "very good". I just think that a Hall of Fame player is in a class by themselves, because like Jim said, they are beyond the best playing, and are ranked among the all time greats.

 

By no stretch do I think Eli deserves to be in that group, at least, not at this point in his career. And the same goes for Rodgers, Rothlisberger, Rivers, and Romo. That's part of what I'm talking about when I'm saying "in the conversation".

 

The jury is still out on Drew Brees....he is a Hall of Fame contender, but not a lock, and currently, not someone who makes the NFL top 100 like Peyton and Brady.

[ksm7]

I consider Tony Romo as an elite QB because of his production and wins. The Cowboys are a legitimate post-season contender with him on the team.

 

Eli Manning went 10-6, and threw for 4000+ yards for the 2nd season in a row.

 

I ranked Aaron Rodgers as an elite QB prior to his Super Bowl run, based again on his production....and he has justified the ranking. See below for my comments prior to the 2010 playoffs (I edited the post for length).

 

In fact, the accuracy of my Elite-o-meter is frankly stunning. I think a copyright is in order.

 

romo has won 1 playoff game in 4 attempts over 4 years...the dog fails to see how he fits in your definition of elite. and when you so strongly argued that regular season pales in comparison to post season when ranking nfl QBs, why should the dog consider eli manning currently or otherwise when he has failed to play a post season game in two seasons, and failed to advance one round in all but one season? using your definition, the dog should care less about eli going 10-6 this year, since post season is what counts...of course, that is using your original definition which you used as the support for your 2008 claim that eli is elite...now of course, do to recent history, your definition has changed to de-emphaisze post season results in order to fit eli into your elite category. mark sanchez fits every aspect of your new definition. the dog could easily rank him ahead of eli using your criteria (this could be a whole new 3 year debate at this point). yet he is just in the good level according to you. your argument is inconsistent, much like the QB you continue to argue in favor of...

[JMFP]

romo has won 1 playoff game in 4 attempts over 4 years...the dog fails to see how he fits in your definition of elite. and when you so strongly argued that regular season pales in comparison to post season when ranking nfl QBs, why should the dog consider eli manning currently or otherwise when he has failed to play a post season game in two seasons, and failed to advance one round in all but one season? using your definition, the dog should care less about eli going 10-6 this year, since post season is what counts...of course, that is using your original definition which you used as the support for your 2008 claim that eli is elite...now of course, do to recent history, your definition has changed to de-emphaisze post season results in order to fit eli into your elite category. mark sanchez fits every aspect of your new definition. the dog could easily rank him ahead of eli using your criteria (this could be a whole new 3 year debate at this point). yet he is just in the good level according to you. your argument is inconsistent, much like the QB you continue to argue in favor of...

 

Romo has the body of work to qualify for elite, just as Rivers and Rodgers did.

 

See below in particular for my definition of "elite" QB....

 

I would say an "elite" QB would be a QB that a team builds their franchise around. It is a QB that has either demonstrated that they are capable of winning a championship, OR, over time (more than one season) have put together a body of work that would lead one to argue they are capable of making a run at a championship.

Elite QBs make their teams better - they are capable of beating more talented teams. They are the most prized stock in a GM's trading arsenal

 

The record is clear: I considered Rodgers elite because I thought his production would lead one to argue he was capable of winning a super bowl with the proper supporting cast.

 

And, like the swiss timepiece it is, my Elite-o-meter once again struck gold.

[ksm7]

Romo has the body of work to qualify for elite, just as Rivers and Rodgers did.

 

See below in particular for my definition of "elite" QB....

 

 

 

The record is clear: I considered Rodgers elite because I thought his production would lead one to argue he was capable of winning a super bowl with the proper supporting cast.

 

And, like the swiss timepiece it is, my Elite-o-meter once again struck gold.

 

except romo hasn't accomplished anything relative to your first "elite-o-meter" which must have been more akin to a broken hourglass, since you have since once again deemphasized post season production...the same post season production mind you that placed trent dilfer as the nunber 7 QB in your rankings in 2008 (the dog doesn't even recall if he was starting at that point)...oddly no mention of romo then, who had just lead the cowboys to a second straight playoff appearance and had his best season statistically. but you're right, dilfer was a better QB that year, or over his career, which amounted to one good playoff run in which he managed the games and rode the defense and run game throughout. of course, no team tried to buid their franchise around him, nor was any blockbuster trade made on his behalf, nor does he have a body of work that is very desirable...but...he is elite.

 

so again, why is sanchez not elite? the dog is wondering, since he has a better postseason record than eli, has a franchise built around him, has demonstrated that he is capable of winning a championship...etc...etc...the dog is just trying to understand this swiss timepiece eliteometer of yours...

[JMFP]

except romo hasn't accomplished anything relative to your first "elite-o-meter" which must have been more akin to a broken hourglass, since you have since once again deemphasized post season production...the same post season production mind you that placed trent dilfer as the nunber 7 QB in your rankings in 2008 (the dog doesn't even recall if he was starting at that point)...oddly no mention of romo then, who had just lead the cowboys to a second straight playoff appearance and had his best season statistically. but you're right, dilfer was a better QB that year, or over his career, which amounted to one good playoff run in which he managed the games and rode the defense and run game throughout. of course, no team tried to buid their franchise around him, nor was any blockbuster trade made on his behalf, nor does he have a body of work that is very desirable...but...he is elite.

 

so again, why is sanchez not elite? the dog is wondering, since he has a better postseason record than eli, has a franchise built around him, has demonstrated that he is capable of winning a championship...etc...etc...the dog is just trying to understand this swiss timepiece eliteometer of yours...

 

 

Romo's production since 2008 has only improved. Sanchez is a "good" QB, with plenty of upside.

 

Always attacking me with Dilfer.....the Elite-o-meter is not perfect....yet.

 

As with any fine instrument, it needs maintenance and fine tuning. But I hope you'll agree that my accuracy from 2008 to 2010 has improved. You'll note that my "good" QBs - Sanchez, Flacco, Ryan - gave way to my "elite" QBs (Rothlisberger, Rodgers).