fishgutmartyr

Overall though, I'd be more than happy if the Giants ended up going with the fishgut plan.

Well, thanks; but they pretty much did this with the oline in 2004-2005. I'm just pointing out their own strategy. The difference is we don't have to deal with a Pettigout, and we won't draft/trade a QB--so we'll be drafting with more picks over the next two years.

Just pray we have an off-season like 2005.

I though Cordle did a good job. I'd also resign Boothe because he's versatile and cheap.He can cover center and guard.

I don't have a problem with Boothe, either. But he's 32, and I'm not sure how long his playing level will last. He can't afford to have too much of a drop-off.

there isn't much i disagree with here. we are stuck with kiwi another year before we can cut him though and im with you on baas as a june 1st cut. it's not easy to find centers but he doesn't see the field enough to deal with paying that much for mediocre play

According to this, we'd save 1.8 million cutting Kiwi. http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Mathias%20Kiwanuka&Position=43OLB&Team=Giants

But we'd still be paying out 5 million in dead money, so it might be ok to keep him if we don't keep Tuck.

Since it's painfully obvious to all that someone has to die/retire for any coaching change to happen in this franchise at any level (and for any of you psycho-boys that might read this inadvertantly, I don't advocate the former), we may as well play the player-move game.

Here are my prejudices:

Oline: fix that, and a lot of the horrors of the offense this year goes away. Eli is less skittish (and this was the worst I've seen him in his career), and the WRs actually have time to run patterns.

WR: Not as bad as it looked this year. It's hard to really criticize these guys too much when your QB is spending more time on his back than a Mustang Ranch employee. A lot of dropped balls, but that's been their MO even in their best years--and when they're clicking, it's awesome to see.

RB: Oy...well, at least there's Conners. Love Brown as a running back: hate him as a health risk. It's mind-boggling that we had a more consistent running back tandem with Bradshaw as a feature back. (That's not a dig at Bradshaw--more like a shot at Bradshaw's feet.) We've tried to run the offense without a running game for 3 years now--that's too much pressure for any QB. Fouts had Chuck Muncie. Warner had Faulk. For most of the season, we didn't even have a back that could catch on the field. There is nothing keeping the defense honest.

TE: What the hell is going on here? On one hand, we have Pope getting chicken salad out of Ballard, Pascoe, and to an extent, Boss (Boss was a clearly better athlete than the other two). Then he can't do anything with Beckum, Myers, or Robinson. Well, I missed a few preseason games, so I don't know if I even saw Robinson. Assuming we go with Sullivan and a similar offensive system, someone had better look to see what type of tight end works with it--because the type we are signing/drafting high apparently doesn't...

Defense: I'm sorry, but I'm just not sold on them yet. A lot of the stats came after they were eliminated: for example, Tuck's sack total sky rocketed when it didn't matter anymore--so I'm dubious about where we wound up. I still think they came up short again in the second Dallas game. Still too many 3-man rushes. And I'm terrified that the front office will look at the ranking and say "We're good."

Safeties: If we extend Rolle to get his cap number down (he's earned an extension, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise), we're good here. The real worry is whether or not Will Hill can keep from getting suspended for a change. Both Brown and Mundy have shown potential, so signing either of them would work.

Corners: We have Prince for certain. I liked McBride. I loved Terrell Thomas, was thrilled that he contributed this year, but don't think I'd give him a contract. Hosley disappoints.

LB: What does it say when you trade a 7th for a player considered washed-up, and it turns the squad around? It says to me you resign him, draft his replacement to learn under him, and turn the squad over, so the new players can learn from a vet from a successful LB group. Herzlich was a good story; but so was Hamlet--not all good stories have happy endings.

DT: Re-sign Joseph. Maintain status quo as much as possible. This is the strength of the current line.

DE: Ut-oh. What do you do with Tuck? Is he the guy that played this year, or the one that was pretty much dormant the previous two? That's a high-priced gamble for a guy on the wrong side of 30. This spot is the easiest to fuck up, and a lot will depend on whether or not JPP is recovered, and Moore picks up some of the slack. Bye, Kiwi.

First thing I would try to do is extend Eli and Rolle, to get their cap numbers down. Rolle, as I mentioned before, earned it, and was a highlight this year. There's no sign of him slowing down; so it's worthwhile for both parties. He gets some "security," we get some breathing room.

Eli is a bit different. Yes, he's erratic. Yes, his play stunk this year, mitigating circumstances or not. But we're also $20 million in the hole with him this coming year, and we need some of that back if we want to fix this team to be competitive again.

Cut:

Baas: dump him as soon as financially feasible. He's not a terrible center: he just can't stay on the field, and that is crippling to an oline. Too expensive as a backup. Cope with the dead money as a June 1st cut.

Snee: He might be talking about coming back, but we shouldn't be. Wish he would consider retiring--he has been too good a player for us to retire in a different uniform as a shadow of what he once was.

Kiwi: Too much, for too little.

Diehl: Retire, for god's sake. It's done. It's been done. You're scaring the children.

Free Agency:

Tuck: Hate to say it, but I wouldn't re-sign him. Maybe there is "tread on the tires," but the suspension is shot. Too many holes, with just so much cap space tells me that this is a gamble that we can't afford to take.

Ross: No. Obviously. We seem to be capable of adding IR members without signing them on.

Nicks: I don't think he's done. I also don't think he's shown $10 mil/year this year. I would try to get a 2-year with options for both sides--let him show that this past year was an aberration (which I think it was), and then go for fair value in 2015. Probably won't happen, but that's what I would try to do; and with the injuries in 2012 and the production drop this year, his market value might not be as high as he hopes.

Joseph: Yes.

Patterson: At the current price, keep.

Hillis: Maybe, but not as a starter.

Brown: He just can't stay on the field, and I liked him when we drafted him. Rather not, but we might have to.

Boothe: I think we've gotten all we can get from him.

Brown (Kicker): Don't see a reason not to keep him.

Strategy: Sign them from their rookie contract. Sign the position from a team where the position is strong: a second string center from a strong Oline is probably better than a first stringer from a terrible one. No more mediocrity signings because they were 1st rounders in their drafts. Don't sign names, sign potential. We need youth, so sign it.

Center: Get in a time machine and re-sign O'Hara. A no name that has yet to flower. I'd rather ask "who?" at the beginning of his time here than at the end, like Baas...We need a vet, even a young one, because we need some leadership on this line. We're not going to have that from guards. Which is why I prefer not to draft a center to start.

LB: Well, we can't grow 'em, so we have to buy them. Keep Paysinger, he's played OK, and he's not exactly going to command a fortune.

DE: If we find a youngster, grab him--otherwise, draft one AFTER THE FUCKING 1ST ROUND.

Guards: Ugh. If we can find one, get him. If we can find two (starter and backup), do that. I don't see a whole lot on this squad showing me starter. We need at least one, from here or the draft; and then only if something develops with Henderson or Mosely. Yep, we'll probably need two.

OT: Backup type ala Shaun Locklear. We have no backups of note: unless you feel comfortable with Mosely and Kropog(GO PORK!). At most, Right Tackle.

RB: We don't need anything but consistency here. We're not going to have a great running attack, barring a miracle. There's just going to be too many x-factors between oline and running backs, so assume the worst and go for enough of a running game to keep defenses from completely bottling up the passing game. Someone who can catch would be spiffy.

Draft:(The first two are non-negotiable; the rest are mix and match)

OT: I actually like Beatty. But I'm not blind, and he stunk it up this year: and he's injured. He's good typically, but unlucky with injuries. We should be able to get a good one this year in the first round. And while Pugh was the only positive on this line at RT, he may wind up a guard down the road if we can't find one. Draft one, and Beatty earns a starting Tackle spot, or is gone ASAP.

OG: We need to replace the lot of them, assuming nothing comes from Henderson.

CB: We're in pretty good shape, but we could be better.

RB: We can't rely on Brown; we DEFINITELY can't rely on Wilson--and that's not considering his play. We don't know what we have with da Cox.

LB: Please...You've seen what decent linebackers can do.

DE: I'm sure they already have this one pencilled-in. Probably first round. Sigh.

Center (Later rounds, or UDFA): This assumes a free agent center. For back up and competition the following year. Unless you feel Cordle is OK?

WR: Maybe...holding out hope for Nicks. Not as concerned about the WRs as some of you: shit rolls downhill, and with the WRs relying on the QB, who's relying on the Oline, that position's pretty much at the base.

Hope this isn't too convoluted.

Yeah when Tyrone Wheatley was the best of the bunch, ya got problems.

Well, Hampton...

But the negatives really outweigh the positives.

The curse of first-round running backs continues...

I prefer Kropog's last name backwards. Make it so.

Fish, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Stick with the guy who's schemes we know suck instead of breathing new life into the team that desperately needs it?

 

Yes, the guy's schemes won the Lombardi. So did Mike Martz's and nobody is clamoring for him to be their coordinator. Schemes get old... it's just the way it is... and you can't hold on to "well, it worked in the past" when the past was almost two years ago (the offense was terrible for the second half of last season too).

 

Also, don't forget it was Gilbrides shit play calling that got us OUT of the playoffs in 2008, when he decided to have Eli throw 35 passes into 40mph winds... and how well did he make adjustments after the team lost Plax? So well that we went onto win one more game total in the regular season.

 

I personally can't wait to see how Eli does in an offense that doesn't require a dozen pre-snap reads and lets him just play.

I don't really think he ever got a chance by the fans. Obviously, he did from the team, but the fans remembered him as the guy that got punched by Ryan, and that was the end of it for them. In the meantime, they apparently missed the best offensive play by this team that I've seen in decades of watching them.

Of course he did some bone-headed shit: I'll do you one better and remind you of the Redskins game in 2007 when he had Manning throw 50 times in gale-force winds. Even still, we managed to stay .500 or better despite some horrendous defenses in 7 of his 8 years as OC. He went 8-8 with Sheridan as DC, for god's sake!

And that 2008 team had more problems than just Plax--Jacobs was hurt going into the Carolina game, and wasn't any better against Philly. (Did he even play? I don't remember.) And Plax wasn't the feature of that team--the running game was; so having Jacobs injured when he was hurt us big time. Half our defensive line had microfracture surgery the following off-season. It was a strong team, but it was beaten-up by the playoffs. It wasn't all Gilbride, just like the wins weren't all Gilbride.

I think he should go. I also think he should be given a hell of a lot more respect for what he's done for this team during his time here. It just bothers me that he won't.

And I think it's utterly obscene that he's gone while Fewell and Quinn stay. Yeah, yeah the defense was better this year--but if you guys give credit to wide receivers for Gilbride, I'll give credit to the DTs and Beason for Fewell. There's three previous seasons (with an 8-game interlude) that supports this. And Quinn!?

Why am I getting the feeling that next year is going to be ugly, too?

Football is indeed a game of inches and I don't think we out last two superbowl's because of Gilbride rather two wing and a prayer throw that just happened to go our way. If Tyree lets that ball hit the turf when it was just a few inches from the ground on his helmet . Actually if Tyree didnt come down on top of Harrison's legs the ball would of hit the ground .Also if Manningham doesn't get his right toe down or if he came down a two or three inches to his left we would not have gone on to win our last Superbowl. Now did Gilbride have those two plays scripted ,were they practiced ? Maybe the Manningham play

 

 

With out those two lucky plays we would only have 2 Superbowl wins and 3 Superbowl losses granted. ...... The Giants won inspite of Gilbride

You realize neither of those passes were for TDs, right? There were hundreds of offensive plays before and plays after these that contributed to getting there. In 2007, Burress was wide open in the end zone for that last TD. Boss had a big catch and run before then. Tyree had a TD earlier, which gave meaning to his other catch. The defense had an awesome last stand against the Patriots offense. Do those get discounted too?

Well, why not call Tom Quinn MVP, then? Without 2 special teams plays in SF, we don't even get to the Superbowl in 2011. With the state of our defense for most of that year, I'm still trying to figure out how we even got into the playoffs.

manningham's catch wasn't a miracle. it was a really nice sideline tip toe catch that happens a couple of times a week in the NFL.

 

i've seen a "helmet" catch about 4 times since tyree's catch. If he had pinned it against his shoulder, hip, leg, stomach it'd be a great athletic play, but because he pinned it against his head it's "lucky" or "a miracle". it was a really great athletic play on tyree's part and people act like the ball got stuck in his facemask.

 

im really sick of these plays being misscharacterized by people who didn't think the giants deserved to win those games.

 

the mvp of the 2007 run was a tie between eli playing out of his mind and a sick defense(mostly tuck) that held the greatest offense ever to 14 points.

 

the mvp of the 2011 run was 1) nicks 2) cruz 3) jpp.

 

and no i don't assign a ton of credit to gilbride when nicks and cruz turned about 47 10 yard slants into 50+ yard td's that year. as we've seen from nicks and cruz the past two years, that many huge YAC plays in one season is unsustainable and not a product of offensive design

2007--won't argue: that defense peaked that year. At least after the first few games. Eli was pretty meh for the season, but really came into his own in the post season.

2011--The thing is Ballard also had a good season that year, and he can't be mistaken for a great TE. And if you are going to credit strictly a player, I'd pick Eli: he was under a ton of pressure because of the line even back then (the difference being that it was coming from the outside, and there was still enough of a pocket for him to maneuver). Of course, 10 yard slants would be a good way to compensate for a porous line...

Can we stop now? I get it. Nothing's going to change your minds, and I frankly don't care.

 

Hell, I see the opposite more often, especially here.

 

When the offense works it's in spite of Gilbride, that exact quote has been written here countless times. and when it fails it's because of Gilbride.

 

 

In reality it's part gilbride, part players.

^This.

I'm actually relieved Gilbride's gone--in a sick way, I've been looking forward to this for a few years now. Not that he was a terrible coordinator, but because I don't have to read some of the revisionist history that goes on here: we won in 2011 because of the defense?

Now I won't feel a need to defend a guy I don't really care too much about--frankly, some of the things he did pissed me off as much as it did everyone else. I just hope you guys that were claiming that the offense won despite him are right. I guess we'll find out next year.

The guy ran an offense that got us two Lombardis, and should have gotten us further in 2008 and 2010. Too many turnovers in 2010, but with a real defense, we could have hit the playoffs.

Whatever. It's done.

I will ask this, though: What adjustments do you make with the offense when you have a pocket-passer getting perpetual pressure up the middle, and your running game is on IR/partial IR? We didn't even have a true fullback for a chunk of the season. This isn't a hypothetical question, I really want to know.

 

 

Cue the guy who hasn't watched the past 11 games. What team are you watching? Seriously, dude. The team cannot pass the ball. Despite what MIGHT have been.

Yep, haven't watched any games.

The team can't pass the ball because it doesn't have a tight end worth a damn, or an offensive line--guess what you need for a running game?

But tell us, how exactly would you line up the team that would be oh so different?

0 TE's and 2 running backs every play? That MIGHT work, if we had a running back that could catch consistently (which we don't have) or a QB that throws a decent short pass. But seeing as we don't have EITHER, it might get a little easy to stop the run with that formation. Especially when we play a team whose front 7 isn't sitting on the fucking couch.

It's a bad season. Reese took some gambles he had to take because of the cap, and lost most of them. I've already mentioned a few times that this is Gilbride's worst season because he hasn't adjusted to the inadequacies of the line. You'll never convince me that Fewell is worth a damn, because no matter what, this defense can't make the big stop--not just this year, but every year he's been the DC. You can say that Gilbride's offense has made the big play--and it has on a number of occasions.

Personal attack? Fuck you. Enjoy this section.

Wait--you mean when he plans to throw a pass, he puts out as many receivers as possible? On a team whose offensive strength was originally thought to be its passing game/wide receivers?

This IS shocking news...

Holy shit.

Some of the calls that are being made out there are changes at the line where Eli is given the option to check down. Some of those draw plays you see on 3rd and long have been Eli's.

 

Secondly, yesterdays passing attack was about as bad as I've seen out there. Jernigan might have 3 catches but his fucking route running was a mess out there. For fuck sake he tripped Cruz going across the middle where he shouldn't have been, and how does someone blow a streak pattern down sideline by 20 fucking yards. The fumble by Cruz was him trying to get extra yards, and with all due respect we'd all give them shit for not trying harder so I feel he;s been hard done by .

 

And another thing, Gilbride has mixed up the run and the pass more than ever the last few games and basically we've revitalized the run game. Again he got shit for it when he didn't do it.

 

Look, I think he's average. He's had 2 head coach jobs and he failed miserably in both. But I don't think this mess has been mainly his fault. That said, it's not Coughlin that will have to give the blessing to release him, it's Eli.

Finally, a little sanity. This is Gilbride's worst year here, hands-down. Not so much his play calling, but the complete lack of adjustment on his offense to a sub-par line. Most of this season, this site has bitched him out about having fades in the red zone: this week the bitch was about not having Nicks out there (which wasn't his call) to throw what I assume would be a fade. He's not innocent, no one is innocent in such a shitty season; but we have a defense that plays it's best only when there's no pressure to perform, special teams that give up tds at an absurd rate, and wide receivers that apparently took stupid pills.

I've never seen Manning show so much frustration towards his receivers than he has this year. I get the feeling these wide receivers are reading their own press releases, because Eli is getting irritated not just on the INTs (which he fucking should be), but on a LOT of the incompletions. Frankly, I haven't seen any wide receiver do a good job this year. Possibly Cruz, but only by default.

Yeah, I don't get why you remove your best blocking back on the goal line, but there are FAR more problems on this team than Gilbride's play calling.

I'm still dumbfounded by some wanting to give Fewell a pass because we didn't stink against amateur QBs this season, and a win streak and SB win 2 years ago; while torches are being lit for a guy that won 2 SBs for us with a squad that has produced for us pretty consistently for most of his tenure. What about the rest of his time here? It may well be time to move on from Gilbride--but if you guys think that will solve all this team's problems, you're wrong.

Look, here's the deal. In no way should little Jernel Jernigan be at WR on any competitive team split wide. Maybe a backup slot guy on a competitive team. He's not a real talent on a good team. I have no idea what that offense was trying to do on Sunday. This team lacks a premier #1 receiver that Hakeem Nicks was supposed to be. They also lack an offensive line that can give a reasonably good pocket to Eli.

 

The better team won on Sunday... and it was a lot closer of a game given the talent then we'd like to admit. You see the Giants trying to generate a pass rush on Romo with double barrell blitzes and time and again Dallas would pick it up. The Giants then would rush 3 with 8 in coverage and it was equally ineffective. The Cowboys were simply the better team. The deficiencies of this team are very apparent and they've been obvious from the start. The O-line is in disrepair. And they could not generate a pass rush with 6 rushers much less 4.

 

At no point this season have the Giants really looked like a playoff team. They need to invest big time in the offensive line, particularly the interior, and the defensive front 7... what we have now is a mediocre squad that is inferior talent-wise but tries hard.

 

Reese takes some blame here... but Gilly's offense is completely inadequate as well, especially given the players he has, but even with better players, I still think this offensive scheme is more than faulty.

Again, the offense was pretty awful, but they tied the game. The defense came up small when it counted. Again. 5 defenders around Witten in the end zone, and no one reacted to the ball!?

We need a real center, desperately. We've been starting Jim Cordle(!) for most of the season. He gets replaced by Boothe in-game, and there's no real difference? What does that say about leadership on this line? Center is supposed to be the guy calling the shots for the line--obviously, that hasn't happened all year.

But I agree, we need guards as well. More than a new OC--Eli is a long-ball QB: he just doesn't have a good touch on his shorter throws. That means he needs a pocket, period. Not that he has guys to throw to in the backfield, other than maybe Brown.

Man, I can't wait for this season to be over.

REVENGE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgLhr6sHtc

I can't believe you guys are pining for Shockey. He had a great rookie year and then didn't do dick for the rest of his career.

 

Even when he was traded to New Orleans so that his "career would be revived under Sean Payton" he became more famous for being reemed out by Drew Brees on the sideline than for making plays.

It's not so much pining for Shockey as it is complaining that Gilbride's offense doesn't know how to use tight ends.

Somehow, an offense that made players out of Boss, Ballard, and Pascoe doesn't know how to use TEs to their fullest, while other teams could...? Apparently, these guys were as good as Antonio Gates in his prime, and we just wasted their talent.

Gilbride deserves criticism for not compensating for a shit oline this season, but he definitely gets more grief on this board than he deserves over the years.

 

Arrington was playing alright, just when he finally got his shit together he ruptured his achilles.

That's exactly the point.

We managed his knees, he was determined to earn his pay; and the minute he started to get a feel for our defense, he was taken out of football. He had a contract for what--three years? If we didn't have escape clauses, we would have been on the hook for 56 million. Or at least that portion that was bonuses.

We're out of the cap bind next year. I would hate to have something like this bite us in the ass.

We need to lock in Beason for the next 3 years. Always lock in the guys who WANT to play for us. They will try that much harder as Beason is and will if we treat him right. Will Hill is another example. Give them a life and they will give you theirs.

Like Curry? He wanted to play for us...

How about Arrington? He's an even better example. Plenty of desire, just couldn't do it.

 

I've seen enough to reward him... and if he goes down for whatever reason, then you can always cut him. And there are ways to make the contract incentive-heavy.

Then I hope you're not one of the guys screaming for Snee and Diehl being cut, or about the current cap situation. Because those contracts were signed when Snee was in the middle of his pro bowl seasons, and Diehl was starting LT, and these shitty years are how we're paying off the bonuses. They had a hell of a bigger reason to give out those contracts than 4 games, no matter how good the 4 games have been.

im sure signing him isn't going to be a problem. he and his agent are aware that he basically had the two worst leg injuries someone can have and won't expect a big multi-year guarantee.

 

i've always loved the guy and although i wasn't around for the 80's teams he seems to fit that giants linebacker image that my generation grew up learning about. i was actually hoping carolina would cut him this offseason with the emergency of kuechly but i don't mind giving up the 7th round pick for him either

On the other hand, if that agent is worth anything, he's going to be looking for as much guaranteed money as he can possibly get--because Beason had the two worst leg injuries someone can have. And if he makes it through this season with the same level he's shown so far, Beason's value is probably not going to get higher than it is right now, realistically. If he gets guaranteed money, you're looking at a multi-year contract just to space it out; and you could easily find yourself paying for an IR jockey.

That said, I wouldn't mind at all if we re-signed him so long as he makes it through the season; I just don't think there's a rush.

The guy had microfracture surgery on his knee--can we wait and see if he can make it to the end of the season first?

I'm not trashing the guy--it's great to see a real linebacker again--but it would be a good idea to find out if he has some ability to keep on the field before risking a multi-year deal.

 

I actually love the white n grey.

We won 2 SBs in them.

How Quinn has kept his job this long is one of the great mysteries of this era in Giants history. Our special teams have been complete shit for most of Coughlin's regime, with a brief period of competence during the 2011-2012 seasons.

If he stays, and Fewell gets renewed even with the defense's resurgence into mediocrity this year it will say a lot about just how seriously this team takes all the talk about its spotty playoff attendence. Granted, the defense has played well enough to look better than last year, and if this wasn't the last season in his contract might have saved Fewell from firing--but I don't think it's near getting him a renewed contract.

It was a 5 "FG only game" in SFO that allowed us to win our 1st Lombardi if you recall.

Second Lombardi.

But I was thinking that, too.

Yet another reason to hate our divisional rivals: how DARE they give us a glimmer of hope after going 0-6!?

When you look directly overhead, do you see footballs in the sky?

I'm totally perplexed on how I should react to this photo. The only thing I'm sure of is that it is probably hanging in a goth chick's bedroom somewhere.

Well, so much for the theories of bad coaching, sloppy play, dwindling talent, and injuries.

I feel foolish now.

Tom Quinn?

Should have been fired years ago.