Barens

The only "bust" that I can see coming out of the first round is Tamba Hali, I don't think that he is going into a particularly good situation in KC..... I know he is going to get the opportunity to play opposite Jared Allen & will also have Kendrell Bell & Derrick Johnson playing behind him but I don't think that much of any of KC's defensive tackles & aside from Surtain they are without a playmaker in their secondary. I don't think much of Hali's talent level to begin with, coupled with the fact that there isn't a whole ton of talent around him I just can't see him having a significant impact on a team that finished 25'th in team defense.

I actually like Hali, and I actually think that Accorsie would have taken him before Kiwi, IMO. He may not have the size/speed that Kiwi has, but he's got a great motor and work ethic, and something about his playing style reminds me a bit of Strahan. Plus, KC's defense hasn't been much in a long time, but KC has taken steps to improve that defense over the years, and I think Hali is going to benefit from some of the above players you mentioned.

McCargo, I know a lot of people don't like this pick, but, the guy is going to get plenty of opportunities to play in Buffalo, and while he most likely won't become a superstar, I think he can become a nice player for the Bills.

Getting back to the subject, I happen to disagree with some of your selections, and the Leinart pick is bold since he probably couldn't be in a better situation. I actually like McCargo, Hill and Hali, and I think they are all going to be productive players for their respective teams.

If I had to predict a few busts, I'd start with Jay Cutler. I just haven't seen much that much from him that would convince me he's the real deal.

I think that in 3 years, Mario Williams is going to have to overcome a lot to be considered worthy of the 1st pick.

Haloti Ngata

Ernie Simms

Marcedes Lewis

Mathias Kiwanuka-Sorry guys...Hound, I know your especially high on Kiwi, but I was never too high on him to begin with, and he's going to have a fight getting some playing time. I was never sold on his playing style, and he's going to have to make a lot of improvements to make it in the NFL, IMO. Of course, it would be a pleasure to be wrong.

Good to have you here Bomb.

you got plax, shockey, and arrington...please don't tell me about players with character issues

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=112&p=2&c=523563

TROUBLED YOUTH?

Here’s a look at college prospects with a history of off-field issues or attitude problems that could affect their stock in the NFL draft.

USC OT Winston Justice: Pleaded no contest to solicitation of prostitution, suspended for an entire season in 2004 for exhibiting a replica firearm and received three years of probation.

Florida State DT Brodrick Bunkley: Pleaded no contest to stealing a video game, received probation.

Georgia OG Max Jean-Gilles: Questions about conditioning, dedication.

http://nfldraft.scout.com/2/525377.html

Earlier last month we spoke about an insecure attitude by Winston Justice which was being labeled as a "humble personality". We have learned that has changed.

Several franchises were completely turned off by what they called "complete immaturity" on behalf of Justice. Source have labeled him as a "blamer" who does not take personal responsibility. Factor in off-the-field issues which includes an arrest for solicitation and at least two teams in the middle of round one have said they will not select Justice even if he is available.

Looks like Justice is the perfect prospect for your organization.

http://nfl.com/draft/story/9428093

Looking back more important than looking forward

By Pat Kirwan

NFL.com Senior Analyst

(May 9, 2006) -- The NFL draft has been over less than a month, and we are already hearing about the top 100 prospects for next year. By the time next April comes around, the list will change drastically, and at this point, it really doesn't mean a lot. What may have more meaning is a look back at a draft from the past, to see what we can learn from it. There are some valuable lessons waiting if we care to open our eyes to some history rather than some fortune telling.

When I was with the New York Jets, our owner, Leon Hess, stopped by my office about a week before the draft and asked me two questions. Firstly, what was the length of the contract I intended to structure with our first-round selection? And secondly, how many players actually played out that length of a contract in years past? To answer his questions, I went back and looked at the recent history of the first round, and it really reinforced a lesson that I continue to study to this day. The risk/reward of the first round is much more volatile than most draft observers care to remember.

William Green is one of several players who haven't quite panned out.

Giving a grade out to teams for how they drafted on the last weekend of April is close to absurd at this point. It is meaningless, and there's no reason to praise some teams and criticize others. I prefer to go back and look at the draft from four years ago to see how teams and players have done. A first-round player with four years under his belt can be evaluated. Today, a quick look back at the first round of the 2002 draft will tell us more than an editorial on the 2006 draft.

The 2002 first round averaged contracts close to $1.5 million a year in value, and the average contract length was just about six years per player. Interestingly, my owner would not have liked the answer to his second question with this class.

Joey Harrington (No. 3 overall) is on his way out in Detroit. Mike Williams (No. 4) was shown the door in Buffalo. Wendell Bryant (No. 12) is out of football. William Green (No. 16) can't break into the starting lineup in Cleveland. Philip Buchanon (No. 17) has been traded from Oakland to Houston. Ashley Lelie (No. 19) wants out in Denver, and the Broncos have traded for Javon Walker, who went a pick later in the same draft. Napoleon Harris (No. 23) has been traded from Oakland to Minnesota and no longer starts. Marc Columbo (No. 29) didn't play football in 2005 and his career is over. Robert Thomas (No. 31) is already on his third team and is described as a player who could add some depth. And finally, Pat Ramsey was traded from the Redskins to the Jets, because he was no longer in the Redskins' plans.

Sure there are some great players from the class of 2002 like Julius Peppers, Roy Williams, John Henderson, Levi Jones, Dwight Freeney, Albert Haynesworth, Jeremy Shockey and Lito Sheppard, but if nothing else, that just points out how volatile the draft can be.

It is safe to say, as we look back four years, that close to half of the players have failed, are failing, or are playing more like late-round picks than elite players. I wasn't surprised by the look back, but as one head coach said to me when I went over my quick scan of the 2002 first round, "That information isn't going to help me sleep any better." Back when this draft was completed, people said it was a strong draft for receivers, quarterbacks and cornerbacks. I wonder what those people think today?

1. David Carr -- Has yet to live up to the first pick, but did go to an expansion team. (B)

2. Julius Peppers -- A Pro Bowl player. (A+)

3. Joey Harrington -- On his way out in Detroit and will be a backup in '06. (D)

4. Mike Williams -- Short, uninspired career in Buffalo; trying to rebound in Jacksonville. (F)

5. Quentin Jammer -- A full-time starter, but just six career interceptions. (B-)

6. Ryan Sims -- In four years, he has generated 60 tackles and five sacks. ©

7. Bryant McKinnie -- 55 starts and a good player. (B)

8. Roy Williams -- Ronnie Lott told me Roy was his favorite player to watch on Sundays. (A)

9. John Henderson -- A 16-game star every season with over 200 tackles. (A+)

10. Levi Jones -- One of the best offensive tackles in football. (A)

11. Dwight Freeney -- An All-Pro pass rusher with double-digit sacks every year. (A+)

12. Wendell Bryant -- Out of football; had a suspension for substance abuse. (F)

13. Donte Stallworth -- A good receiver with 195 receptions and 23 touchdowns. (B)

14. Jeremy Shockey -- When healthy, an excellent player; hasn't played all 16 games yet. (A)

15. Albert Haynesworth -- Had his best year in '05, but had half the production of Henderson with 103 tackles and 7½ sacks. (A-)

16. William Green -- A backup running back in Cleveland with nine touchdowns in four years. (D)

17. Philip Buchanon -- Traded from Oakland to Houston; 11 picks in four years. (B)

18. T.J. Duckett -- A backup runner in Atlanta, and the Falcons drafted a first-day back in '06. (B-)

19. Ashley Lelie -- Wants to be traded or treated better; 23 career starts and 42 receptions per year is just average. (B)

20. Javon Walker -- Was on his way to being an elite receiver when injured; traded to Denver. (A)

21. Daniel Graham -- No 16-game seasons, 99 receptions; Pats took another tight end in the '06 draft. (B)

22. Bryan Thomas -- A backup who started due to injury; 6½ career sacks. (C-)

23. Napoleon Harris -- Traded from Oakland to Minnesota, now a backup. (D)

24. Ed Reed -- All-Pro safety and finally coming out of the shadow of Ray Lewis. (A+)

25. Charles Grant -- A good starter, but only 30 sacks. (B+)

26. Lito Sheppard -- Developed into an All-Pro corner. (A)

27. Mike Rumph -- Five starts in the last two years; 49ers traded for Sammie Davis at his position. (C+)

28. Jerramy Stevens -- Career finally got on track in 2005. (B)

29. Marc Colombo -- Out of football for medical reasons. (F)

30. Kendall Simmons -- Very good guard for the Steelers; missed '04 for medical reasons. (A-)

31. Robert Thomas -- On his third team in four years, considered a backup. (D-)

32. Patrick Ramsey -- Traded to the Jets for roster depth. (C-)

You can make your own decisions about a draft class that can actually be graded.

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• Kirwan: Some personnel adjustments after minicamp

• Carucci: Look for big splash from '06 receiver class

• Carucci: Cooking up some tasty draft leftovers

• Cheeks: Draft seems to yield more questions

• Kirwan: The post-draft scramble

This is Carbos Avatar

 

Honestly, who cares?

I do not understand why so many fans are calling for Emmons's head. Let's review why he should stay:

 

- At worst, he is the third best LB on the team. As much as I like Torbor, he has not proved himself to be as consistent and versatile as Emmons. Let's what until Wilkinson steps on the field before deciding if he can contribute this year, let alone demonstrate superior ability to an 11-year veteran.

 

- If the team intended on releasing him, he would be gone by now. When Emmons was injured last year, the team decided to place him on IR instead of risking further injury, despite his insistence on playing. The Giants would not have IR'ed him if they did not care about his future in football.

 

- With Arrington pencilled is as the starting SAM, Emmons is the only LB on the roster (aside from Pierce) with pro experience starting on the weakside. For Emmons to be cut, at least two WLBs will have to clearly outplay him during the preseason.

 

- After a year in which the Giants LB core was decimated by injuries, you would think that the Giants would collect and retain as many able-bodied, competant LBs as they possibly can.

I completely agree, except the only thing that is puzzling is why Arrington will be playing the SAM. From what we've all seen, or at least from my point of view, Emmons clearly plays better over the tight end, and one of his biggest strengths I think is jamming the tight end, and getting him off his route. But Emmons just doesn't seem suited to play the WILL, and even though he's able to play that position in a pinch, they're not lacking depth anymore.

I didn't mind adding another DE in the slightest, I just wasn't so high on Kiwi. If our pick had been Tamba Hali or if we had found another DE in the 3rd or fourth round, I wouldn't have minded.

But I may have critiqued Kiwi too harshly, considering the knee and shoulder injury he played through this season. But when the Giants PR team uses that as a crutch, sometimes it just sounds like the same old song that we hear almost annually. But I could have expected too much from him when he did not play that well against Boise State, and then went on to have a less than stellar Senior Bowl week.

In a recent interview, TC noted that Jonas Seawright is 340 and in great shape. He also sounded very excited about Duckett's ability and fitness heading into this season. I deduced from the interview that those two would be getting almost all of the playing time next to Willie Joe.

 

If it's the case that Seawright and Duckett are in as great shape as TC made it sound, I think we will be fine this season. He describe Jonas as "going to be unblockable." I don't think we'll really know until we see these guys in camp, though. But overall, I'm not too concerned. They just need to occupy blockers so that the playmakers surrounding them can make plays.

 

Cofield is a question mark at this point. If he performs well in camp and practice he might get some time in the rotation.

 

I dont expect anything from Robbins. Last I heard, he was in terrible shape.

I wouldn't set the bar too high yet for Seawright until we actually see him in action. I don't think we'll actually hear Coughlin and Accorsie say anything negative about our DT's, but, you also have to take what they say with a grain of salt.

It's all a numbers game. Tuck will factor in but barring injury won't start. Ya gotta like having Tuck as your 4th DE on the depth chart. It wasn't long ago that guys like Lance Legree and Keith Washington were getting a lot of PT for us. That likely won't be the case here.

 

I heard another interview with Ernie three days ago and he said similar things. It's his last year. He'll miss the draft but not the games. They're awfully high on Wilkinson. Lewis may get a shot at DT but needs to bulk up.

I can't imagine going into camp that Kiwi's automatically going to get the nod over Tuck. That's oviously something that has to be earned.

Good guess on Terrell. He was the MVP ... had 150+ yards and 3 TDs...

 

Any guesses on the third guy?

Charles Woodson?

OHHH...Tom Brady.

I don't remember but who did most of the fans want instead of Dayne then?

Our fans were divided. There were plenty of Dayne fans, and there were plenty who just didn't think he was worth that pick, and thought he wouldn't be able to play to his size in the NFL.

Whether or not you hear about it later doesn't matter. Will Allen was supposed to be a steal at where we picked him, but I wouldn't consider him a steal now.

 

In hindsight, the best example is Dayne, everybody cries but we could have had Shaun Alexander. Well dayne won the Heisman and held the record for yards in college. When we had to get a running back that year and Dayne was still there at 10 it was a smart move to pick him, even if he disappointed us, nothing dayne did in college led us to believe he'd flop in the pros.

 

Did Buffalo reach, yes!. Did they get the player they wanted?. They think so. That's all you can ask.

Actually, there were plenty of Giants fans who voiced there displeasure over picking Ron Dayne, but I can't remember a soul who wanted Shaun Alexander pre-draft, or complained about not not getting him soon thereafter.

I like drafting part time players in the later rounds sure.

 

Sinorice Moss could be an everydown player as early as next year.

 

Personally anybody drafted in the first/second round should be projected as a starter in 1-2 years IMO. That's why they get picked that high and it's not unreasonable. After watching Justin Tuck play last year, there is a very good possibility that when strahan does leave (which could be 3-4 years from now), Tuck could be the one to take his place.

 

fact is our need was DT and if we stayed where we were we could have taken McCargo. Now is it possible that he might suck after we pick him? sure. But the idea is to get a guy to play a position you need to fill. how pissed off will everybody be is this kid Kiwi comes in and sucks up the joint, everybody is going to be crying that we should have drafted a DT. Money likes to use the term you pick players not positions but last time I looked John Mc Cargo was a player.

What's going to make some of these picks a little maddening, is when we start hearing about the players who we passed on who are succeeding on other teams...whether it's DeAngelo Williams, Kelly Jennings, John Mcargo, Nick Mangold, Santanio Holmes, Chad Jackson, D'Quell Jackson, Demeco Ryans, Rocky McIntosh, Joseph Addai, Thomas Howard, Jimmy Williams, or Winston Justice. Kiwi is most likely going to be brought along slowly, and when or if one of these other prospects has some success, where going to hear about it.

well most teams and every draft site i've seen has moss ranked 3rd behind jackson and holmes. it is a matter of opinion, and i'm not going to change my mind now just because we drafted him. a lot of the players on the list have had injury plagued seasons, not to mention they are all also bigger than sinorice moss. obviously harrison and ward (6' 215lbs) are exceptions, but they are a far cry from 5'8'' 184. a lot of those players havent even contributed yet, or never really panned out.

Everyone has their opinion, and your definitely entitled to yours, and I'm sure plenty of people agree with you(including the Patriots), but what Moss brings to the table is something this team has lacked for a very long time. And besides being 5'8, having the best vertical jump of all the WR's in the draft puts to rest any type of fear I have about his size.

And Hines Ward, that's a very generous 6'0 he's given.

even so, i'd like to hear your arguement on why moss was a better prospect. i think they are equally athletically gifted, but jackson is taller, and his college stats show that he has the skills to play at a high level, consistantly. being shorter doesnt make receivers better, it has only been a coincidence that 2 of the best receivers from last year were undersized. that's 2, but all the rest were atleast 6'. you all seem to forget how big of a deal it was when we got plaxico burress and he was 6'4'' 220.

There's no way of telling who the better prospect is going to be, but like I said, I think Moss is a better fit for our offense. And Moss is supposed to have one of the best vertical leaps for WR's in this draft. And like I mentioned, there's a pretty big difference between having Kyle Wright and Chris Leak as your starting QB's. And one other major point as to why the Giants may have supposedly ranked Moss ahead of Jackson, Jackson's yards per catch last year was 10.2, while Moss' was an amazing 16.6. Jackson's 40 time might be better than Moss', but IMO, Moss' football speed is much more evident on the field.

The list of average to smallish WR's in the league

Steve Smith

Lee Evans

Roscoe Parrish

Santana Moss

Dieon Branch

Troy Brown

Tim Dwight

Laveranues Coles

Ike Hilliard

Terry Glenn

David Patten

Antwaan Randle El

Hines Ward

Mark Clayton

Derrick Mason

Az-Zahir Hakim

Marvin Harrison

Reggie Wayne

Brandon Stokley

Torry Holt

Kevin Curtis

Bobby Engram

Darell Jackson

Not a bad list.

http://nfldraft.scout.com/2/489663.html

Shrine Game: East Practice

By: Brent Foshee

TFY Draft Preview

Date: Jan 16, 2006

"Alabama safety Charlie Peprah was the class of the defensive backs. Peprah displayed an explosive break on the ball and showed great speed in all directions. Pittsburgh defensive back Josh Lay showed a nice recovery but was a half step slow in reacting to the routes. Army defensive back Dhyan Tarver had difficulty in transition and was badly beaten by double moves several times. Dion Byrum, from Ohio, also had difficulty staying in his backpedal and appeared to be more of a side shuffler."

http://nfldraft.scout.com/2/490079.html

Tuesday' Shrine Practice: East

By: Brent Foshee

TFY Draft Preview

Date: Jan 17, 2006

"Charlie Peprah remains the best defensive back on the East squad. Peprah not only is impressing as a safety during scrimmage but he is getting beat less in man coverage drills than most of the cornerbacks in attendance. Dion Byrum showed good closing speed today and though he is susceptible to double moves he does have the speed to stay with the receiver down the field. Nate Salley, though physically impressive, is not using his size properly and does not make a play on the ball when it’s in the air. Louisville defensive back Gerrick McPhearson is fundamentally sound and fast. McPhearson also does a nice job of getting his hands on the ball before the receiver can control it. "

i was high on him pre-draft, i really do feel he's a great prospect. what i was upset about was how we did it though. i loved the trade to pittsburgh, but hated the fact that sinorce moss was our number one receiver. throughout history, big receivers have been better, and now we follow the trend of getting the small slot receiver. that's not to say i don't like moss either, i also think he's a great prospect, i just thought with jackson in particular had a far more productive college career, equal ability, and like moss, wasnt a badass with off-field problems. 3rd round and on was a-ok in my book, they passed on watson, but i'm sure they had their reasons, and i'm happy with coefield.

Moss also didn't have Chris Leak throwing him the ball. Either way, I don't expect Moss to live up to the expectations of WR's like Steve Smith or Santana Moss, but, I think he can play a much more key role in our offense than Jackson could have. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking forward to a nice rotation between Burress, Toomer, Carter and Moss. And as much as people like to bitch about Carter, having him and Moss on the field at the same time is going to give defenses major headaches. And how is it that historically, bigger receivers have been better?

Who would you have drafted instead of Kiwi that would help our DT situation?

He did mention selecting Moss with the 32nd pick and taking a DT in the 2nd round. I would have been happier with that stategy as well, but it is what is.

since i graduate next week???

You start out on the Giants Message Board, then make your way up to Sportswrath, and then when you get to BBI, you should be well on your way.

Just kidding...never hurts to be an ex-pro, play in college, or even coach a high school football team. You could also offer your services for free if that ever gets your foot in the door.

I actually think that the Redskins did fairly well for the picks they had in this draft. They doubled up in 2 areas in which they are in most need, and in addition to McIntosh, I think if Kevin Simon gets a clean bill of health, he's going to be a real steal for them.

I won't beat you up. We're all entitled to our opinion on these guys. I will say though that my view on Kiwi was high before the Giants picked him (I picked him in our MB mock) and it hasn't changed since the draft. I noticed him his Junior season and at the time was hoping he'd come out then.

 

The one observation you made that I wholeheartedtly disagree with is his jump off the ball. Kiwi is FAST. He's got an explosive first step, although he did play with some leg injuries his senior season so maybe you caught him at less than 100%.

I remember you mentioning you were high on him before the draft.

I caught 1 game in 04 and 3 games last year. It may not be enough to offer that kind of criticism, but, hopefully I'm dead wrong. It's tough because I also remember him as one of the top rated DE last year and this year, and when I watched him, he just didn't meet those expectations. And then the Senior Bowl didn't help my opinion, and I know the Giants brass mentioned he was injured, but anything that they tell you at this point you just have totake with a grain of salt.

Obviously, the Giants are really high on him, so we'll see.

Kiwanuka is a stud.

 

Sure it's not a need position but you can never have too many Defensive Ends!

 

Are there other players or positions I would have rather seen us pursue? Probably, but as far as looking at who we selected and judging ability, you can't say much that's negative about Kiwi.

 

I loved the trade back with Pittsburgh. I thought we really got a lot in exchange for the swap without missing out on any targeted players.

I gotta be honest, I didn't like the pick, and I still don't. And before I get beat up for saying that, let me just say that I thought the rest of the draft went very well.

I didn't even think it was such a bad idea nabbing another DE, and I get the feeling Accorsie was very high on Tamba Hali as well, but obviously, he was gone. I watched a few BC games, and Kiwi was obviously the main attraction on BC's defense. But from what I saw, he wasn't nearly as impressive as he was touted by the announcers. He was usually a second too slow off the ball, he catches his blocks, and if he gets blocked low, he often gets stopped in his tracks. Plus, he plays a little too high for my taste, and with his height, I truly hope that's something he can improve.

And from there, having an awful Senior Bowl doesn't increase my confidence.

I don't mean to sound like such a pessimist, but just because the Giants are doing some outstanding PR backing up the pick, still doesn't mean that I'm sold.

I wouldnt be surprised if we went with these guys either.

 

TE:

Quinn Sypniewski

Cooper Wallace

 

C:

Greg Eslinger

 

G:

Fred Mauta

3 of my personal favorites I like to see, but don't expect, LeKevin SMith(obviously you've heard my opinion there), Tommy Jackson, or Brian Iwuh, LB Colorado. I certainly wouldn't mind Elsinger either.

My guess...Marcus Hudson CB/S NC State. Not exactly who I want, but I get the feeling that Tom Coughlin had his eye on a few DB's from the Senior Bowl, and Hudson was noted to be one of them.